Stripping citizenship.

[Guest]

Because it's a punishment you can't give to someone who doesn't have dual citizenship. It means that those with dual citizenship are punished more severely for the same crime. And I don't believe a just system gives out different punishments to people for the same crimes based solely on where someone's parents are from. If somebody is a citizen here, then we punish them according to our laws and the same as we would punish anyone else who is a citizen here.

Fair enough, but I think the punishment of deportation ought to be available for anyone who is granted Canadian citizenship. It's not a birthright, it's something Canda has decided to award. It comes with certain obligations. If one doesn't live up to those obligations, then revocation ought to be an option. For anyone.

[angrypenguin]

Christianity is also a religion of peace.

I beg to differ. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

[dialamah]

I beg to differ. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

*laughing* Did you stop reading after that and missed my (admittedly sparse) examples of Christian violence? I entirely agree, Christianity is no more or less peaceful than Islam, regardless of what they claim. In my perfect world, all humanity would agree on giving up religion of any kind.

[angrypenguin]

Meh. I don't think it's such a black and white issue. I do know that you can go online and read Court decisions regarding reasons behind sentences. They often make a lot more sense than does the uninformed public, if only because they have details that we lack.

Don't know where you are from but in BC there was a trial of a couple of terrorists recently. The media had a great time running video of the sting operation that caught these two, repeating over and over how they were going to blow people up at the BC Legislature buildings. The government was only too happy to share all the detail of their investigation.

You could tell from the videos and audio that these two people were a few cards short of a deck. They were drug addicts, and no doubt they'd get high and sit on their couch (or street corner, wherever) and talk about how they'd like to show the government a thing or two, how they could get a bomb and wouldn't Canada Day be a good time to set it off? (Pass that pipe, do we have any money to get some more drugs?)

But someone tipped off the authorities, and the cops head right in there - they give these people money, they help them find bomb plans, they help them get the supplies, they help them plan their trip to Victoria, they put them up in a hotel room. Then they arrested them and charged them with terrorism and patted themselves on the back.

This couple was convicted, which is being appealed on the grounds of entrapment. I think they have a pretty good case. But if the conviction stands, I'd be interested to see what the judge decides for sentencing, and why.

The guy who attacked the Parliament last year: a mentally ill drug addict.

You can see why I might have a problem with the notion that someone is a terrorist just because the government says they are.

I really don't care if they are drug addicts, if they try to blow something up in Canada, I want them out of here.

[Signals.Cpl]

This idea that we have to accept everyone that comes here is a dangerous one.

I don't think that is the point though, I think that one of the biggest arguments against revoking citizenship from only one segment of the population means that it creates a two class citizenship. Once someone is Canadian they are Canadian period unless it is proven that they lied at any point in the application process.

I realize a lot of people make the argument that if you are not a terrorist you shouldn't worry about it, but then again once you marginalize a segment of your population politicians like Donald Trump can use that segment as the whipping boy to distract the rest of the people from the real problems, and this leads to the slippery slope where you start revoking citizenships based on lesser and lesser crimes.

[Signals.Cpl]

I had to take an oath to get my Canadian citizenship. I don't remember what it was, but I'm fairly sure that committing a terrorist act against Canada and/or Canadians would break some part of it or other. Good enough reason to be kicked out.

So that oath only applied to you? I was to young to take an oath when I received my citizenship, does that mean I get a pass?

[Signals.Cpl]

The issue is that we arrest them, but we can't keep them in jail! Like that Toronto 18 bomber who's eligible for parole in 2016. If you make me choose between him roaming free in Canada or to deport his butt, I choose the latter.

If he is Canadian that should not be an option.

If I cure cancer tomorrow a whole lot of Canadians will be proud of the achievement of a Canadian but if I were to blow up a building in an act of terrorism I won't be considered a Canadian…see a problem with that?

[Signals.Cpl]

Oh. I think I misinterpreted your statement.

In a perfect world, I'd go and jail every terrorist out there who threatens to harm us for life, even if we have to bear the tax $ to do so. The reality is that a convicted terrorist (Toronto 18) is eligible for parole next year. So clearly we can't jail them for life. In that case, my argument is that we kick them out of the country and yank their citizenship, so they can't come back into this country, which is a right AFAIK of any Canadian citizen. If they want to harm us, make it that much more difficult for them to do so - by yanking their passport.

That will sure protect us from Omar Khadr right? Make it more difficult for him and individuals like him to commit acts of terrorism by taking away their citizenship and kicking them out right? Oh wait that's right, Khadr is a real Canadian because he was born here.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Did anybody see Parm Gill on Power and Politics tonight? He was unaware of the Gaya case and had to ask Rosie Barton about it. Rarely are Government spokespersons so poorly prepared on a fairly hot topic.

[Signals.Cpl]

What, you mean revoke citizenship? Yes, they already have revoked citizenship from two people. If you mean revoke citizenship to a Canadian who only has a Canadian passport? They are trying. There's one convicted terrorist who was born in Canada, but whose parents are from Pakistan. So they are trying to get his Pakistani passport so they can yank the Canadian one.

I'm all for that.

So it is aimed at dual citizens then? If you were born in Canada but have a citizenship from another country as well you are still not safe? Why would Pakistan want a CANADIAN BORN terrorist to add tot heir problems? What is to stop Pakistan from revoking his citizenship?

[Signals.Cpl]

With all the talk on the other side about how it's not fair etc, imagine if a terrorist tried to kill you and your family, would you want them convicted and then thrown out of the country?

I for sure know I would!!!

I am all for throwing them out if Canada if it is applied equally to every individual convicted terrorist. Since it cannot be applied equally then we should do it the only way we can, punish them in Canada as Canadians. Why should Immigrants become loyal to Canada if they never have a chance to become true Canadians? Why should immigrants serve in the Military and risk their lives FOR Canada if they are only second class citizens?

[Argus]

There is this thing on the right which demands that emotions rule intellect,

See, it's need how you tried to do the same as I did, but the difference being I was honest and you're just making stuff up.

In point of fact, it's the right which is ruled by intellect and the left by emotions. That's evident in every disagreement about policy.

that facts be disregarded in favour of myth and hyperbole.

You mean like when someone says "Alah Akhbar" and murders people, and then leaves a video saying he's God's warrior, and will get virgins and sit at Gods right hand, and then you say "No, no, this has nothing to do with Islam!"

That what you mean by ignoring facts?

Christianity is also a religion of peace. I wonder how the victims of abortion clinic bombings/shootings feel about the peace Christians offer them?

Yes, yes, you're right. A dozen or so cases of abortion violence over the past twenty five years is EXACTLY the same as TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND acts of Islamic terrorism over the past 14 years. How could I note realize the two religions are exactly comparable!?

Or the victims of the residential schools and the paedophile priests?

Much of the Islamic world has a history and a culture of pederasty. But you won't see any mullah's getting arrested for it since the prophet, peace be upon him, married a nine year old.

What I don't excuse is hatred, racism and bigotry and all that flows from it

And yet, you seem pretty good at hatred, and your liberal bigotry seems pretty obvious too. So I think what you just don't excuse is when you don't like other people's opinions.

[Argus]

This.

These days environmental groups are being labelled terrorists. Boycotts of Israel are considered hate-groups. Harper has effectively set the stage to stifle any dissent of his policies and the seals are clapping away.

And to think just 10 years ago we were mocked about 'scary-Harper' tactics, but we turned out to be right.

Of course you did! Why, all across the land, Progressives are fleeing to safer shores, like, uh, Russia and China, or hiding under their beds waiting for the Harper Hit Squads to come and take them away for hating Israel!

[Signals.Cpl]

And what if the judicial system cannot keep them in jail? One is eligible for parole next year. You want them anywhere near you? The extent of the law is IMHO, in this case, not capable of dealing with these morons who want to kill us.

What if he is born in Canada and has only Canadian Citizenship? How do you protect Canadians then? If you don't think that those individuals received a long enough sentence then by all means try to fix that problem, focusing on the place of birth or secondary citizenship of the individuals means you get a nice big scoop of BS because how would it protect Canadians from the likes of Khadr and Zehaf-Bibeau? Both were born on Canada right? And I am sure that if you start deporting and revoking the citizenships of those born in Canada you will get more opposition because it is a lot easier to take away someone else's rights or marginalize their citizenship but not so easy when you fit that criteria yourself.

[CITIZEN_2015]

In point of fact, it's the right which is ruled by intellect and the left by emotions. That's evident in every disagreement about policy.

May be that is why their supporters are highest among high school educations!!!! Even by pro-conservative EKOS poll...........

Edited October 3, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

So it is aimed at dual citizens then? If you were born in Canada but have a citizenship from another country as well you are still not safe? Why would Pakistan want a CANADIAN BORN terrorist to add tot heir problems? What is to stop Pakistan from revoking his citizenship?

That is the obvious tactic for other countries to employ. Why should they take our maniacs? The jihadi market is kinda saturated in Pakistan.

This particular case is preposterous. No country with rule of law will let this stand - to exile somebody to a country they have never visited. It's like the Romans sending Ovid off to the Black Sea coast. Even Harper must know that.

Edited October 3, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[cribone]

why don't we just get rid of anybody we don't like. As harper said they might look at expanding the reasons.

[Signals.Cpl]

Fair enough, but I think the punishment of deportation ought to be available for anyone who is granted Canadian citizenship. It's not a birthright, it's something Canda has decided to award. It comes with certain obligations. If one doesn't live up to those obligations, then revocation ought to be an option. For anyone.

So someone who was born here and moved to some other country at age two and lived there for 30 years and then comes back and commits acts of terrorism should not be deported because he is Canadian, but I should be deported if I commit acts of terrorism because I moved here when I was 9 and have lived here for the last 20 years of my life? Once Canadian, always Canadian.

[Argus]

I entirely agree, Christianity is no more or less peaceful than Islam

Maybe on your planet. Here on earth, 25,000 Muslim terrorist attacks in 14 years puts them way behind in terms of peace.

[Argus]

why don't we just get rid of anybody we don't like. As harper said they might look at expanding the reasons.

Okay.

[Wilber]

So someone who was born here and moved to some other country at age two and lived there for 30 years and then comes back and commits acts of terrorism should not be deported because he is Canadian, but I should be deported if I commit acts of terrorism because I moved here when I was 9 and have lived here for the last 20 years of my life? Once Canadian, always Canadian.

If you are a dual citizen, you are also something other than a Canadian.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The government is unleashing dark forces here that may be hard to put back in the bottle.

[Argus]

The government is unleashing dark forces here that may be hard to put back in the bottle.

Oh yeesh. Can you get more dramatic? Lots of countries strip foreigners of their citizenship when they prove to be traitors.

It's amazing the desperate sympathy the Left has for murderers, terrorists, and traitors.

[eyeball]

And what if the judicial system cannot keep them in jail?

Then one should assume prosecutors can't make a valid case for doing so.

One is eligible for parole next year.

This short sentence implies a less severe crime making deportation even more harsh and unusual.

[SpankyMcFarland]

If you are a dual citizen, you are also something other than a Canadian.

In the Gaya case, that is not even true. He is not a dual citizen.