Flashback - Trudeau Panders To Islamists

[On Guard for Thee]

Hey, I'm not the one too gutless to condemn child rape and honor killing lest he offend someone...

Here is where your bluster, (I'm trying to be polite) fails, and draws contempt. You can condemn something without resorting to insulting language, especially in the context of a pamphlet to be handed out to the general immigrant population.

[waldo]

You're as desperately afraid of condemning it as he is.

You know what, if any immigrant or ethnic is 'offended' by my terming honor killing, genital mutilation and child rape as 'barbaric' then not only do I not CARE, but I think they should be forcibly removed from Canada forthwith.

what's heelarious is you haven't even taken the time to realize the distinction being made... between the acts and the culture attachment! Of course, why would you let that get in the way of yet another opportunity to speak to your MuslimMenace™

[Argus]

Here is where your bluster, (I'm trying to be polite) fails, and draws contempt. You can condemn something without resorting to insulting language, especially in the context of a pamphlet to be handed out to the general immigrant population.

It's interesting you have no problem offending people here, but you can't bear the thought of offending people who think honor killings and child rape are acceptable.

[On Guard for Thee]

It's interesting you have no problem offending people here, but you can't bear the thought of offending people who think honor killings and child rape are acceptable.

Now that is rich coming from you. But I think the only person offended here would be you. Do I hear your shell quivering again?

[Smallc]

like I said before... the last time your true colours came forward... don't bother with your shuffle-dance routine suggesting you can't see yourself voting for Harper Conservatives this go-around. There's nothing at all progressive in your views to suggest your vote belongs anywhere other than where you've parked it!

I'm not voting Conservative. They're wrong on marijuana, the right to die, prostitution, government transparency, and now the Senate.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Smallc

[Guest]

Sure, but the point is that people don't. They'll say it's disgusting or something. "Barbaric" is not a word that's used to describe white middle-class men killing their wives or children for perceived slights. You can't ignore the baggage that the word "barbaric" carries with it. It has a history of being used in ways and contexts relating to "outsiders" or people that aren't part of whatever reference group the person using the word comes from. By a strictly definitional use of the word, yes, you'd call them barbaric. What they did is barbaric. If someone asked you if it was barbaric, you would agree as you have here. The thing is, it's not a word most people would just pull out to describe their own people, even when they do barbaric things.

To fully elaborate, barbaric obviously comes from the word barbarian. The root of the word is barbaros, meaning foreign in Greek. Barbarian by its very definition is someone who is "uncivilized" and in the context of early Greece that meant not part of the city states--in other words an outsider or foreigner. The word barbarian and therefore barbaric through their etymology and by definition are bigoted.

Well so what? Butchering your family is barbaric is probably what you're saying. And you're absolutely right! Barbaric though is a term that distinguishes an outsider or someone from a different culture. You're saying their culture and nationality are the reason for this act and that distinguishes them from our culture and nationality. But is that the case? Domestic homicide and domestic violence are serious problems in Canada. It's not something reserved to other cultures. We whitewash our violence while highlighting the violence of others. That's why the term "barbaric" is inappropriate. It comes from a place of bigotry that ignores the fact that our own culture is also violent and disgusting at times.

We're all agreed that Honour Killings, FGM, Child Marriage, Forced Marriage, Punishments based on Religious Laws, etc. are barbaric cultural practices, right? That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not we describe them as such to potential immigrants for fear of offending them, and whether or not we have the right to do so without being hypocritical. (And I'm going by the OP, here. I actually don't remember exactly which were listed in the official document, if any)

The comparison to crimes in our society is not relevant, in my opinion, as most of the practices in question are not crimes in the countries where they are rife, and those that are are in many cases result in a blind eye being turned or a minor punishment. This is a general view of mine that has come about from observation.

The fact is that any migration from Canada to any other country would not result in the practice of domestic violence accompanying the migration. What would accompany the migration would be the practice of finding such things repugnant and against the law. Just as we do here.

The issue with immigrants is not that they bring crimes with them. All immigrants have the potential to do that. It's that they bring practices that we abhor, but are acceptable to them in their home countries. As such I have no issue with a description of how they are viewed here. I don't care about giving offense.

As I said earlier, I imagine most immigrants would agree. I imagine that is what most of them are tring to escape.

[cybercoma]

There doesn't need to be a cultural judgment of the practices whatsoever. In a strictly legal sense, arranged marriages, FGM, "honour" killing, etc. are illegal. Full stop. They're not acceptable here and will land someone in prison. That's all they need to know. We don't need to be making cultural pronouncements, particularly when a lot of these people are trying to escape those cultural practices to begin with. Telling someone they come from a barbarian culture is insulting beyond just condemning horrific acts of violence that are not acceptable here. That's the problem.

[waldo]

We're all agreed that Honour Killings, FGM, Child Marriage, Forced Marriage, Punishments based on Religious Laws, etc. are barbaric cultural practices, right? That's not the issue.

the issue is, you've just repeated, again, the same thing as stated directly in the Harper Conservative brochure/pamphlet... although its been repeated many times through this thread, again, this is the exact statement: "barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, “honour killings,” female genital mutilation, forced marriage or other gender-based violence"

I've said it repeatedly through the thread and cyber has been reinforcing it in his latest posts... the distinction being made, the distinction you and others are not acknowledging/accepting is the cultural attachment versus the acts.

[Guest]

the issue is, you've just repeated, again, the same thing as stated directly in the Harper Conservative brochure/pamphlet... although its been repeated many times through this thread, again, this is the exact statement: "barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, “honour killings,” female genital mutilation, forced marriage or other gender-based violence"

I've said it repeatedly through the thread and cyber has been reinforcing it in his latest posts... the distinction being made, the distinction you and others are not acknowledging/accepting is the cultural attachment versus the acts.

They are attached to the culture. They are cultural practices, (or acts, if you wish). They came about as the culture developed to become accepted cultural practices. Is it just the association of the act with the culture that you find objectionable? I could not imagine a distinction being made. If the acts are not a part of the culture, then what?

Where CC and I disagree is with the idea that criminal acts in this country deserve the same designation. They don't, in my opinion, as we as a culture find them abhorrant, and criminalise them.

The same can not be said for many of the acts/practices that the OP describes, and as I mentioned in my reply to CC, even those that are recognised as criminal acts are frequently not prosecuted.

[waldo]

If the acts are not a part of the culture, then what?

I've asked the following several times in this thread... I never get an answer - perhaps you'll bite: what culture(s) and what communities within those cultures are you speaking of?

[Guest]

I've asked the following several times in this thread... I never get an answer - perhaps you'll bite: what culture(s) and what communities within those cultures are you speaking of?

Ah. You want specifics or nothing at all. Do you disagree, that generally speaking, the practices mentioned in the OP and in the quote you posted from the pamphlet are prevalent in and accepted by much of the population in many Middle Eastern and North African cultures from which Canada takes immigrants?

Those are, generally speaking, the cultures to which I am referring. I assumed everyone involved in this thread was speaking of the same.

Names and addresses I do not have.

Edit> I should just say that I would not limit the inclusion of said pamphlet into any prospective immigrants information package based on where they were coming from. Middle East, North Africa, Iceland, New Zealand, anywhere, they would all get the same exhortation.

Edited September 9, 2015 by bcsapper

[cybercoma]

Where CC and I disagree is with the idea that criminal acts in this country deserve the same designation. They don't, in my opinion, as we as a culture find them abhorrant, and criminalise them.

Our laws are not our culture. Our laws change with the stroke of a pen.

[Guest]

Our laws are not our culture. Our laws change with the stroke of a pen.

Right. (That reinforces the point I made about the laws paying lip service in some of the cultures in question)

Where we disagree, however, is that I believe that here in Canada our culture generally agrees with the law that says domestic violence is not ok. By a very large majority.

[waldo]

...in many Middle Eastern and North African cultures

that's geography... again, what cultures are you speaking to?

[Boges]

that's geography... again, what cultures are you speaking to?

Are you trying to parse between racial differences and nationalities. I think we know that there are stark cultural differences in the geographic areas where these practices are common place.

[waldo]

Are you trying to parse between racial differences and nationalities. I think we know that there are stark cultural differences in the geographic areas where these practices are common place.

differences? How can there be any differences in a broad-brush, sweeping, all-encompassing cultural attachment? When I ask what culture(s) and the best I can get back is a geographic reference, well...

[Boges]

differences? How can there be any differences in a broad-brush, sweeping, all-encompassing cultural attachment? When I ask what culture(s) and the best I can get back is a geographic reference, well...

Why are you conflating culture with Nationalities or religious groups? They aren't the same thing. Are you denying that some groups have cultural attachments to these "barbaric" acts?

[waldo]

Why are you conflating culture with Nationalities or religious groups? They aren't the same thing. Are you denying that some groups have cultural attachments to these "barbaric" acts?

it's the same question asked of you throughout this thread... many times now. The same question you have refused to answer... and the same question member bcsapper didn't answer. Again, what cultures... and what communities within those cultures?

[Guest]

that's geography... again, what cultures are you speaking to?

Generally speaking, people inhabit Geography. Generally speaking, people have cultural values.

I asked you this question: "Do you disagree, that generally speaking, the practices mentioned in the OP and in the quote you posted from the pamphlet are prevalent in and accepted by much of the population in many Middle Eastern and North African cultures from which Canada takes immigrants?"

If you do disagree, then we have such differing views that a connection is not possible. I think they are, so the phrase in question doesn't bother me at all. If you do not, then no wonder it bothers you.

I would have trouble understanding why it bothered you if you did not disagree.

I suspect you do not disagree, which is why you try and deflect by asking for specifics, and pretending that you don't know what I'm talking about.

You could actually tell me whether or not you do disagree.

Edit> Another question: If I remember correctly, (and if I don't I know you'll make me aware of it) the original argument was with the word "Barbaric". I think I remember JT offering the word "Unacceptable"? If that's the case, to which cultures do you think he was referring? I'm probably talking about the same ones. Just the word is different.

Edited September 9, 2015 by bcsapper

[Boges]

it's the same question asked of you throughout this thread... many times now. The same question you have refused to answer... and the same question member bcsapper didn't answer. Again, what cultures... and what communities within those cultures?

I'm not an expert in the cultural makeup of people that do these things and where they live. I didn't know I had to be an expert to have an opinion on the matter.

Are you? Do you know the exact type of people that do this and where they live?

Using the blanket term "culture" is used precisely to avoid targeting a specific group of people. Would it have been better if the pamphlet targeted specific communities as you seem so eager to get a clarification on?

[waldo]

Generally speaking, people inhabit Geography. Generally speaking, people have cultural values.

I asked you this question: "Do you disagree, that generally speaking, the practices mentioned in the OP and in the quote you posted from the pamphlet are prevalent in and accepted by much of the population in many Middle Eastern and North African cultures from which Canada takes immigrants?"

and when you were asked to specify which cultures, you named geographical locations. Now you've shifted to "the people"... having cultural values! So... in that regard, "the people and values" from what cultures?

you're asking me to answer a question to which you have been unable to offer clarification around your phrasing "many Middle Eastern and North African cultures".

[waldo]

Using the blanket term "culture" is used precisely to avoid targeting a specific group of people. Would it have been better if the pamphlet targeted specific communities as you seem so eager to get a clarification on?

no need to get defensive - your answer is your answer! But really, I thought you had come around a short while back when you stated:

It's not a projection on the culture and/or religion of people who do these things.

perhaps you should attempt to make your same point with member 'bcsapper'!

[Guest]

and when you were asked to specify which cultures, you named geographical locations. Now you've shifted to "the people"... having cultural values! So... in that regard, "the people and values" from what cultures?

you're asking me to answer a question to which you have been unable to offer clarification around your phrasing "many Middle Eastern and North African cultures".

Are you serious? You realise what you're doing is fairly transparent, right?

I see that you enter into personal fights with some posters in this manner and I have no desire to get into that sort of thing. No time, no interest.

If you actually have no argument with what I say, instead just refusing to accept that there is such a thing as a general cultural practice (You posted this before I edited my last post so you won't have seen my point about JT's "unnacceptable", but it's a valid question. To which cultural practices do you think he objected to the word barbaric being used to describe?) then I'm out.

I really don't want to be all Hey'd and laughy faced.

Edited September 9, 2015 by bcsapper

[Scotty]

Honour killing is called domestic violence in the western part of this world. There is no difference and Canada has plenty of marital killings.

What do they call cutting off girls' clitorises in the western world?

[Scotty]

Think of it however suits you just don't use that language in a document you will hand to all immigrants.

Why? Do you think they'll be offended for some reason?