UCCB payments - vote buying

[Evening Star]

I basically agree with msj about this. I'm pretty disappointed that the NDP isn't more willing to scrap a garbage regressive 'benefit' like this, especially since they will actually need to raise revenue to sustain social programmes. I'm also moving towards the position that a federal day care programme is impractical at this time, given that basic social services of health and education are approaching a crisis point as it is imo.

[hitops]

They should just provide direct benefits to kids, Gclothing, GFood redeem coupons- could be used for Northern Food Grant coupons too. Meanwhile the people with money could be given the old tax credit and stop moving money back and forth.

It is just a shell game.

The only way that the money can be put to the place it needs to be is to make sure the money is only spendable on the things that need to be provided, and that is by providing them.

Sounds plausible on paper, no evidence it works in reality. Programming never allocates resources efficiency. Assuming it does is massive fallacy that assumes that a single or small group of people know how to make decision for millions. They don't. A few people cannot possible know the literally billions of pieces of information necessary to efficient allocate money. But the millions of people do contain those many pieces of information relevant to them, and act accordingly. The nearly infinite pieces of information which are relevant are known diffusely throughout society by individuals. Given the money (or better, not taking it in the first place) to individuals is far more efficient overall.

Yes people with lower education and large section of the native population will blow it, but overall Canadians will more efficient use the resource than government every time. Lots of families struggle and can use the money in ways relevant to them. That doesn't mean daycare for everyone, or food for everyone, or more activity for everyone, or better school for everyone. It is a customized problem for every individual, by definition. Trying to force childcare spots on the country will just increase waste and distort prices for childcare.

Edited July 22, 2015 by hitops

[Topaz]

I think a better reason is they NEED most of that money back and so over 300+ million will come back to them, its just a scam to get votes, since they waited for the election to do it and now they can't Pierre Poutine to mess up votes to help them. This may be the first true honest election the Tories are having. Of course, time will only tell how honest.

[hitops]

I think a better reason is they NEED most of that money back and so over 300+ million will come back to them, its just a scam to get votes, since they waited for the election to do it and now they can't Pierre Poutine to mess up votes to help them. This may be the first true honest election the Tories are having. Of course, time will only tell how honest.

Great, my problem is that the answer from the opposition parties is that the scam is not big enough. Presumably they would offer me an even larger incentive for my vote.

This is modern politics. Taking your money, pitting people against each other, and giving it back for your patronage.

Edited July 22, 2015 by hitops

[GostHacked]

These benefits that families are getting is more bitter than sweet. They'll be pretty pissed when it comes to tax time.

[Bryan]

These benefits that families are getting is more bitter than sweet. They'll be pretty pissed when it comes to tax time.

My taxes have gone down every year since the Conservatives have been in power. In every single one of those years, the opposition parties and their supporters have insisted that next year they will go up, and every single time those people have been wrong. Tax time is especially the time where it solidifies in my mind why I vote Conservative -- they take less of my money from me.

The complaints from the opposition parties only serve to even further reinforce the point -- they want to take more of your money away from you, and they don't like it when people get to keep their own money. That they further insult the people benefitting from getting to keep more of their own money by calling it a "bribe", and you have exactly the reason why CPC support jumps right back up when people are actually checking off their ballots.

[hitops]

These benefits that families are getting is more bitter than sweet. They'll be pretty pissed when it comes to tax time.

Yay, you know how to say what the TV said.

[WWWTT]

Why is it any different than a party that promises to expand daycare or raise the minimum wage? Isn't that vote buying or does that term only apply when conservatives do it?

Ya actually, buried deep in the conservatives last omnibus bill, dependent children were taken off the tax deductible list!

How about we talk about that!

How about this fact showing up on an conservative action plan add!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Sorry, the one sided media coverage on this topic has been grating....

Ya that one side media hasn't said squat about the removal of the child tax credit!

Oh ya that's right, it's only one sided when they say bad things about the conservatives. Perfectly OK media when they bury conservative attacks on the middle class!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Um, no.

It would have been better, for lower income people, to simply plug more money into the Child Tax Benefit system.

Instead, the CPC came up with a system that started giving people $1,200 per year for a kid under 6.

Anyone with a kid gets that money regardless of income.

The poor people may get it tax free if they are not taxable.

The low income people may have to pay tax on it at 15% (federal) plus whatever the amount is for provincial (~5% in BC).

Rich people may pay tax on it at the high rates - 29% federal and ~16% in BC for ~45% for 2014.

So, the rich person gets $1,200 but pays tax of $540 so they are still getting $660.

Under the CTB system the rich person would not get anything because their income would be too high so all of the CTB would be clawed back thereby leaving more money in the pot and available for lower income families.

ETA - I should also mention that very few families would pay tax at 45% for a married couple.

Few married couple have both spouses at the top marginal tax rate. Usually you have a spouse making $150,000 and the other either not working, or making something like $30,000.

The UCCB is taxed in the hands of the spouse who has the lower income.

In this case, the couple with family income of $180,000 has received that $1,200 and are paying tax on it at the same rate as the couple where each spouse makes $30,000 each.

You forgot that the child tax credit used at tax time is now ELIMINATED!

It was in Harpers last omnibus bill.

WWWTT

edit-i wrote this before reading your later comments

Edited July 23, 2015 by WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Don't think you'd want to do that - because lower income families pay little or no tax - making it virtually tax-free.....while better-off families pay tax according to their own incomes. Isn't this the result that others seem to want - take from the "rich" and give to the poor?

Hypothetical argument you're using.

God forbid the minimum wage is ever increased! That would blow your whole argument.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

When you consider the elimination of the child tax credit and then claw back the income tax on th UCCB, it's not going to amount to much more than a hill of beans for a lot of folks. But it makes for a bit of good fodder for Mr. Polyester to stump around headig to an election, but only if you are fooled by smoke and mirrors.

And where was the elimination of the child tax credit in the conservative action plan?

I thought those stupid conservative tax payer paid for advertisements were supposed to inform us Canadians?

Ya I guess not?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

So, it's bad if ordinary, poor people receive money from the State.

Yet, that's what Leftists want: the State as Robin Hood.

=====

My conclusion: this has nothing to do with Robin Hood, rich or poor.

In Canada, Harper is a WASP, a boss, an anglo, a white guy, first born: Team A.

This is simply Team A vs Team B.

Nice convenient ignorance of the elimination of the child tax credit my friend!

Don't let facts get in the way of how you perceive the conservative.

WWWTT

[Vancouver King]

And now that we know the current budget is in deficit, it means Conservative's "Christmas in July" was accomplished with borrowed money.

[waldo]

a rotating banner from Poilievre's website: "Canada was built on freedom, not freebies"

[On Guard for Thee]

And now that we know the current budget is in deficit, it means Conservative's "Christmas in July" was accomplished with borrowed money.

Looks like it. Mostly contingency fund and the one time sale of air Canada shares.

[Vancouver King]

Guess who has his 8th consecutive deficit budget? Hint - his Finance Minister was so ashamed of the last one, today he ran out the back door of hanger rather than field questions from reporters.

[On Guard for Thee]

Quite a switch from the little speech he gave yesterday saying how confident they were about the surplus prediction.

[msj]

a rotating banner from Poilievre's website: "Canada was built on freedom, not freebies"

He also has " Government can't give anything without first taking it away."

So I take it back: he is being so honest about taking back the Child Tax Credit while enhancing the UCCB.

[kimmy]

I was hearing on the radio this afternoon that they justified this gift by saying they had a surplus... but the surplus isn't real. They conjured a fake "on-paper" type surplus by looting money out of the contingency fund and EI. And even at that the surplus was already shrinking because of falling revenue due to oil prices and negative growth. And now they're giving away their fake, not-real surplus in what's got to be the most brazen, shameless vote-buying exercise since Ralph Klein's petro-bux giveaway of about 12 years ago.

I thought these guys were supposed to be "fiscally responsible". Blowing 3 billion dollars on a stunt is pretty much the opposite of "fiscally responsible".

-k

[August1991]

I was hearing on the radio this afternoon that they justified this gift by saying they had a surplus... but the surplus isn't real. They conjured a fake "on-paper" type surplus by looting money out of the contingency fund and EI. And even at that the surplus was already shrinking because of falling revenue due to oil prices and negative growth. And now they're giving away their fake, not-real surplus in what's got to be the most brazen, shameless vote-buying exercise since Ralph Klein's petro-bux giveaway of about 12 years ago.

I thought these guys were supposed to be "fiscally responsible". Blowing 3 billion dollars on a stunt is pretty much the opposite of "fiscally responsible".

-k

Yet Kimmy, what's the alternative? Even more "tax-and-spend" or "borrow-and-spend"?

Because, like it or not, most voters in English Canada have a choice in the next federal election:

Conservative or CrazyLeftistSpend NDP or CrazyCoalitionSpend Liberal.

Edited July 23, 2015 by August1991

[GostHacked]

Yay, you know how to say what the TV said.

The media does not tell the truth all the time? Really? I should have known. So what happens when the media lies about government lies?

[GostHacked]

Yet Kimmy, what's the alternative? Even more "tax-and-spend" or "borrow-and-spend"?

Because, like it or not, most voters in English Canada have a choice in the next federal election:

Conservative or CrazyLeftistSpend NDP or CrazyCoalitionSpend Liberal.

What are the choices? They don't look much different to me!

[Moonlight Graham]

Why is it any different than a party that promises to expand daycare or raise the minimum wage? Isn't that vote buying or does that term only apply when conservatives do it?

Because the Conservatives are sending out $400-$500 lump-sum cheques to families, and are doing a damned media tour to promote it during election campaign time using illegal partisan advertising (ie: Poilievre's CPC-branded polo shirt he wore) that they've already been reprimanded for.

But hey they're the CPC so I know you have to defend whatever those scumbags do right?

[Moonlight Graham]

Tax time is especially the time where it solidifies in my mind why I vote Conservative -- they take less of my money from me.

...and send the bill to your grandkids!