Immigration

[eyeball]

You realize it's not 1953, right? The US and UK are evil? Who do you think is better, us? I'm pretty sure we went along with them without any protest at the time.

It was a secret, we didn't know it at the time. But here's the thing, when we finally found out how our bbf's had behaved we said...meh.

We'll never be any better than our worst allies until we stand in their way and tell them to stop.

[bush_cheney2004]

It was a secret, we didn't know it at the time. But here's the thing, when we finally found out how our bbf's had behaved we said...meh.

We'll never be any better than our worst allies until we stand in their way and tell them to stop.

Oh...Canada did know at the time. And Canada will never stand in their way...Canada wants to sell more raw materials for the war machines.

[Argus]

Seriously your comment is so flawed. My only conclusion is that you have very limited experience with non-Europeans. Likely you assume them guilty and refuse association.

You would be wise not to make foolish assumptions about who I do and don't know.

You might have met many people, and had time to get to know them, and I have no doubt there are nice people in every culture. But we don't get to 'get to know them' when we're selecting immigrants. By and large, however, people have the values of the society in which they grew up and live. We can presume that if we bring in thousands of people from a region where the value system is inimical to our own, that a large percentage of those immigrants are going to have values which are inimical to our own. If we bring in thousands of people whose religion says gays should be killed, that anyone who tries to leave the religion should be killed, and that women are the property of men to do with as they choose, then most of the immigrants with that religion are going to have those values. This is pretty basic common sense.

My neighbour seems like a decent guy, fairly educated, and works for the federal government. We've chatted for long periods of time on a variety of subjects. We even agree on a lot of things. He's going to vote Conservative, for one thing. He's also a Muslim of Arabic background, though born in Canada, and insist that women must wear the chador because God wants them to. They must be modest and obey their husbands. His wife does not work, wears the chador, and is basically invisible. He's never introduced us, though she's been hovering in the background on occasions when we were talking. His culture is the product of his religion, and more particularly, the interpretation of that religion which comes from the middle east.

That said I admit percentage wise the percentage of those adoptable to our culture is higher in Western and Latin Europe than the rest of the world and likely lowest in Asia and Middle East Again it varies where in Asia and middle east. Highest adoptable percent being Japan and Iran and Turkey respectively).

It is not only highest, but far higher. And according to the government statistics I posted, immigrants from Europe have earnings in Canada several times higher than those from the middle east. It therefore makes perfect sense to me to focus our immigration efforts on Europe. The only reason we moved them away from Europe was because we weren't able to get enough immigrants. But with the economic conditions there we'd have no difficulties now.

[eyeball]

What are you talking about!!!!!!! IT WAS 1953 when the coup took place and its effects are still felt throughout the middle east and the whole world real bad. What are you talking about? Ignorance is not your fault but Go and educate yourself.

Actually I think the worst effect operation Ajax had our alliance was that it was like a taste of forbidden fruit. We got away with it and became more emboldened and started implanting and supporting other dictators in the region, along with the other super-rogues, and the garden of delights we're reaping today is the result.

I do have to say knocking off a democracy like we did in Iran, right in full sight of the commies was pretty goddamned cheeky of us. If there were ANY communists who were having second thoughts about their propping up dictators they probably stopped having them that day.

[Argus]

"Generally" ... As in generalize. It doesn't matter what the individual is like if you judge them by factors such as background

But we're bringing in groups. We're not bringing in an Pakistani guy. We're bringing in 10,000 Pakistanis each year. Whatever generality of religious and cultural belief applies to Pakistanis in general is almost certainly going to apply to the great majority of the immigrants who come here from Pakistan. It's not like we have many tools for weeding such thoughts out. Or that we even really try much. If a guy has no criminal history and is not on any watch lists, makes enough points, then he'll be coming here. We're not going to sit him down and ask him what he thinks about women or Jews or gays or Sharia law.

[Argus]

Because its not about the immigrant (outside of does the immigrant have a criminal record) immigration is about those that the immigrant begets.

The kids will be paying gst like everyone else and in all likelyhood not sitting in prison and paying income tax to boot. The immigrants grand-kids will be much the same.

That's your theory. We haven't seen whether it will be true when immigrants' cultural values are backed up by a deeply held religious belief. We have NOT seen this integration you speak of taking place in other countries with heavy Muslim immigration. In the UK, France, Australia and Sweden, among others, we've seen that their religious beliefs hold them to the values which are the mainstay of their home countries.

[Argus]

And yours have been brought to your attention a number of times here.

Not by anyone whose opinion I have the slightest respect for.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Let me ask you a question.

Your question has been already discussed by us to the end, and is different from what the other poster said

[CITIZEN_2015]

You might have met many people, and had time to get to know them, and I have no doubt there are nice people in every culture. But we don't get to 'get to know them' when we're selecting immigrants. By and large, however, people have the values of the society in which they grew up and live. We can presume that if we bring in thousands of people from a region where the value system is inimical to our own, that a large percentage of those immigrants are going to have values which are inimical to our own. If we bring in thousands of people whose religion says gays should be killed, that anyone who tries to leave the religion should be killed, and that women are the property of men to do with as they choose, then most of the immigrants with that religion are going to have those values. This is pretty basic common sense.

It is not only highest, but far higher. And according to the government statistics I posted, immigrants from Europe have earnings in Canada several times higher than those from the middle east. It therefore makes perfect sense to me to focus our immigration efforts on Europe. The only reason we moved them away from Europe was because we weren't able to get enough immigrants. But with the economic conditions there we'd have no difficulties now.

On you first paragraph, If we do it properly we can screen out the undesirables. We have point system, immigrants go through interviews, may be we can include some written tests too. It is not fair to exclude hundreds of millions of nice people who can effectively contribute to this country just because their countrymen is bad. Not fair. What do you call them? Collateral damage?

Not based on my experience. If we allow peasants yes may be but when we select based on education and skills among the educated population the percent difference is not that wide..

Edited September 13, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

Your question has been already discussed by us to the end, and is different from what the other poster said

It sounds suspiciously like you don't want to deal with that question, with the likelihood that it won't be just the 'far right' who express a preference for people much like themselves.

[eyeball]

Oh...Canada did know at the time.

This is a new one. Canada knew full well it was wrong to knock off a democracy and we just stood by and let it happen, without so much as a peep, so soon after having spent so much blood and treasure fighting tyranny? Please expand. Some cites and sources of this would be appreciated. I'd like to forward them to the appropriate authorities.

As far as I'm concerned forcefully changing regimes in secret and seeing to it that a dictatorship is either created or maintained by another nation's government should be considered a crime against humanity, probably the highest crime given the godawful mess it all to often creates.

In the meantime while everyone's scrambling to write "but but but hundreds of years ago the Muslims blah blah blah" pause to consider that in 1648;

The Peace of Westphalia established the precedent of peaces established by diplomatic congress,[4][5] and a new system of political order in central Europe, later called Westphalian sovereignty, based upon the concept of co-existing sovereign states. Inter-state aggression was to be held in check by a balance of power. A prejudice was established against interference in another nation's domestic affairs. As European influence spread across the globe, these Westphalian principles, especially the concept of sovereign states, became central to international law and to the prevailing world order [6] Source

Every western politician that knew about operation Ajax should have been arrested. Every official that is still covering up for a dead politician we can't arrest should be called to account by court order.

Edited September 13, 2015 by eyeball

[eyeball]

You mean that Canada waited until 2004 to get into the coup business (Haiti) ? Better late than never !

I thought you said we started in 1953?

[Argus]

On you first paragraph, If we do it properly we can screen out the undesirables. We have point system, immigrants go through interviews, may be we can include some written tests too.

How? Do we ask them if they believe in what their religion tells them? That would be religious discrimination. If we ask them outright what they think of gays and Jews they're going to know damn well what we're looking for and simply lie. It won't take long, in fact, given the size of the immigration consultation industry before potential immigrants will be learning about and warned about our preferences in plenty of time to lie on the tests.

It is not fair to exclude hundreds of millions of nice people who can effectively contribute to this country just because their countrymen is bad.

What's fair got to do with it? A person might make a great lawyer or architect or businessman at a given company, but they'll never be hired because the business recruits from the top schools only. The business knows the people who come from those schools are going to be top notch. It doesn't have to search through the also rans in the lower ranking schools looking for the diamond in the rough. We are recruiting workers, and the government statistics show us that workers from the top schools, ie, from the UK, Ireland, Germany, France) will have income performance three times (on average) those in the low ranking places.

Plus, of course, it is very unlikely immigrants from Europe are going to have the same anti-social views on gays, women, jews, etc. as those from other certain other countries.

We have no responsibility in our immigration system for it to be 'fair' to the world. It's not there to please the world. It's not there to give everyone in the world a chance to get out of their home country. It's there to get the best possible immigrants to Canada.

Not based on my experience. If we allow peasants yes may be but when we select based on education and skills among the educated population the percent difference is not that wide..

But those 'educated' people don't perform as well (on average) as people from Europe. Their educational experience is often not considered to be equivalent to that of Canada or Europe, and their communication skills (in English) are generally much inferior. I remember seeing a program once on Russian doctors, and it pointed out that most of them wouldn't qualify to be nurses in Canada because of their poor training. It's undoubtedly the same with graduates of classes in India (endemic cheating there too) or Pakistan or China.

[bush_cheney2004]

I thought you said we started in 1953?

Actually, you started in the 17th century.

[eyeball]

Ah, right...and in 1953 you guys jumped up on her Majesty's lap like any other good little corgi who does what he's told.

[Argus]

Ah, right...and in 1953 you guys jumped up on her Majesty's lap like any other good little corgi who does what he's told.

What the hell does Iran in 1953 have to do with immigration?

[eyeball]

Refugees. Just follow the quote arrows back, you'll see.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ah, right...and in 1953 you guys jumped up on her Majesty's lap like any other good little corgi who does what he's told.

Nope...by then....you guys and your former empire were broke and sucking fumes.

Hell...more Canadian "immigrants" went to the USA.

God Save The Queen !

Edited September 14, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Not by anyone whose opinion I have the slightest respect for.

As in most of the posters here.

[CITIZEN_2015]

What the hell does Iran in 1953 have to do with immigration?

I think it started when some said that the West, Canada included has the responsibility to do its share and take immigrants from troubled regions since they have created it. And some people denied that the West has anything at all to do with any of these problems and it is their own culture which has created dictators and troubles for them which is against democracy and then I posted with strong evidence that at least in one country and one occasion the west is directly responsible for the mess the world is now since by staging the coup of 1953 they murdered democracy in Iran in its infancy and led to 1979 revolution and as a result a very anti west government and hence now they help Assad in Syria and hence so many refugees......

A summary of US crimes against Iran

http://www.salemnews.com/opinion/column-u-s-history-with-iran-forgotten-ignored/article_31a0978b-b75d-549c-baae-a5306a9ed3d5.html

On other issues of how we can screen I don't know I am not an expert in immigration and screening but there must be ways to do that like face to face interviews. I have been trying to find at least one common thing that you and me may agree and I failed to find one except this may be. May be we should admit only young beautiful females into Canada of all continents or you wish to restrict them to Europe as well?

Edited September 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Canada_First]

We shouldn't be flooding Canada with Muslims and third world people. Why is doing just that so important to the left?

[CITIZEN_2015]

We shouldn't be flooding Canada with Muslims and third world people. Why is doing just that so important to the left?

I am definitely not on the left. I am center right even Right on occasions but oppose the far right views as inhuman, hateful and unacceptable. So stop trying to paint everyone who opposes your extremist right wing views as leftist.

Edited September 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Canada_First]

I am definitely not on the left. I am center right even Right on occasions but oppose the far right views as inhuman, hateful and unacceptable. So stop trying to paint everyone who opposes your extremist right wing views as leftist.

Ok then. Why us it important to you to flood Canada with Muslims and third world people?

[cannuck]

But those 'educated' people don't perform as well (on average) as people from Europe. Their educational experience is often not considered to be equivalent to that of Canada or Europe, and their communication skills (in English) are generally much inferior. I remember seeing a program once on Russian doctors, and it pointed out that most of them wouldn't qualify to be nurses in Canada because of their poor training. It's undoubtedly the same with graduates of classes in India (endemic cheating there too) or Pakistan or China.

This is a discussion we have around the dinner table many Sundays. One of my kids spent a years in academia, and was the ONLY anglophone of all of the grad students in her department (English is her second language, but what we speak at home). Since everything in the academic world is published in English, she had to review literally everything written. Her rather well informed opinion was that most Asian grads or postdocs were very focused on their particular thesis, but generally had very little knowledge and understanding of the supporting or related disciplines, science and technology. Further, there is a trend in all of North America to simply discard most Chinese applicants out of hand, as EVERY one comes with perfect marks and perfect references - that very, very few ever live up to when they start work. A lot of really good candidates are passed over for those purely practical reasons. You might get a hundred duds to every winner.

I have had business in both India and China for many years, and can offer this: We don't understand Chinese culture because I most often hear the comment that "you know they are lying when their lips are moving". Thing is, Chinese is a contextual language, and what is written or said today could have a completely different meaning when read or repeated tomorrow. There are not enough characters in Chinese, and no rules to make new ones to meet today's needs. As a result, when you sign a contract in China (in English) we have the expectation that it will be followed to the letter. BUT, it will not. The result is what rules everything, and the method to get there matters little. If you say you need a mill certificate for XXXX grade steel to make a part, you will get the required mill cert. Doesn't mean the steel ever came from that mill or it was made according to YOUR instruction or any industry standard, it just means you will get what THEY BELIEVE you asked for. Quite a few airplanes have fallen out of the sky in the USA because of Chinese (= counterfeit) parts creeping into the system.

India is a bit of a different story. I can never seem to understand why they lie so much, but they do. I sometimes feel that when they get here, there is someone passing out paperwork at the dock as he says: 'Taxi driver, quicky mart clerk, doctor, engineer - no matter they all come from the same university, same course.' I know that doesn't sound fair, but once you have had to put money, time and reputation on the line doing business with them, you will quickly come to the same conclusion. Sad part is: there are some extremely well educated and capable people in and from India. Problem is, they will all claim to be that same person. Once you start working IN India, you will find a culture based so much on privilege, corruption and deceit you would think you were in Ottawa.

Example from a different part of the immigration pipelline: I once had a safety inspection expire on a semi while I was in Ontario, and to get the equipment back home, needed to renew. Went to a cousin's friend's shop, and had work done. Next time this happened, I went back and was told - "Sorry, i have only 5 mechanics and over the next 5 days, I need to do 50 gravel trucks. Will squeeze yours in if I can." I came back the following weekend, where the (Polish immigrant) business owner was filling out a huge stack of paperwork. He said something to me I will never forget. "Look, Mr. Cannuck, I'm having 50 different trucks, and 50 different drivers this week, but only ONE driving license." This has become such a problem that Indian drivers are the laughing stock of the entire trucking industry in North America and source of disproportionate number of accidents.. BUT: what we don't realize is that in India, those guys are working for $100 a month, and over here they can make 15 - 20x as much - making their family at home very well off. They will do just about anything for anyone to earn that kind of cash. AND: do you really think they are paying tax on this money? Yeah, right. If you believe that, I have some marvelous deals on beach front property on Ellesmere Island I can sell you.

I can tell a million stories about Nigeria, South Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, Venezuela and so on being no better. Add to that the culture of extremely violent crime in dealing with some Carribean, Chinese and Russian immigration, and the plot thickens.

Although he may not have made his point elegantly, Argus is right. Do we really want this version of diversity integrated into our culture? The upside, as someone already posted, is that this dillutes a great deal with second generation, but by then the damage has already been done.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Ok then. Why us it important to you to flood Canada with Muslims and third world people?

Because unlike you I don't categorize them based on the religion or the size of their bank account but rather the size of their hearts and minds.

Anyone who qualities by having skills to contribute positively to Canada regardless of religion, skin color, race, national origin, gender, sexual orientation is welcomed.

And I don't wish to flood Canada with those you listed or anyone else. Only a reasonable number who can be absorbed well and without putting pressure on our education, health and social systems and in my view that number is about half what we take in now. I have said this many times before.

Edited September 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015