Are Fire Fighters wasting our money?

[Boges]

http://www.am980.ca/2015/05/07/firefighters-study-fraser/

The study, titled “Municipal Fire Services in Canada: A Preliminary Analysis,” takes a close look at the growing number of firefighters in Canada, in relation to escalating costs for fire services.

“Firefighters play an important role in protecting our communities, but Ontario taxpayers are paying for more firefighters to fight fewer fires, raising important questions about local government spending on fire services,” said Charles Lammam, study co-author and director of fiscal studies at the Fraser Institute in a release.

The study found, for instance, that the number of reported fires in Ontario fell by 41.4% from 1997 to 2012. During that time, the number of firefighters increased by 36.3%.

Researchers noted in the report that the role of firefighters has changed over time, yet the reason for the marked increase in Ontario firefighters remains unclear. Firefighters are now more often dealing with non-fire calls such as medical emergencies and vehicle crashes. For example, only 9.9% of response calls in Toronto in 2013 were for actual fires.

Over the 16-year period, the number of firefighters in Canada rose from 32,400 from 25,900. That amounts to a 25.1% increase, outpacing the country’s overall population growth, which is 16.2%. Unfortunately, with national fire data after 2002, it’s not known whether Canada is experiencing the same trend being seen in Ontario.

We could argue the same thing about Cops and Teachers. But Fire Fighters are the most obvious example because they work like 7 days a month and fires aren't exactly that common.

Chances are, if you call for an ambulance you'll get a rire truck first. Not because you asked for a fire truck but because response times dictate that they have to be X-distance away from any given property. So they can always beat the ambulance. And they need something to do.

Sure we need firefighters but their role needs to be modified. They need to be merged with Ambulance services so that Paramedics can achieve the same response time.

Their hour structure is also ridiculous. Working 24-hours over 7 days is not a shift if you're sleeping a good portion of that time.

But again it's a public service union so any attempt to fix the problems will be met with merciless fear mongering.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Yes.

[cybercoma]

Fire services need to be serious re-evaluated, but the problem is that they need specialized training AND they need to be respond immediately when there is a problem. It's difficult to cut back without giving them inadequate training or adversely affecting response times. Fires may be less common, but are you going to tell a community that if their homes catch on fire it will be 30 minutes before anyone can respond from the major city nearby?

[poochy]

Nobody needs them until someone does. Maybe the number of fires doesn't justify the allocation of resources, who knows, but I imagine there are other things that we could save money on before we decide that people who might be saving your life in case of an accident or fire are no longer required.

[Boges]

Nobody needs them until someone does. Maybe the number of fires doesn't justify the allocation of resources, who knows, but I imagine there are other things that we could save money on before we decide that people who might be saving your life in case of an accident or fire are no longer required.

No one said "not required". But like all sectors of the public services, they continue to grow even if they aren't needed as much.

That's wasteful.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Boges

[Smallc]

No one said "not required". But like all sectors of the public services, they continue to grow even if they aren't needed as much.

There was 1 fire a couple of years ago that required, at 1 point, 50% of the resources of the Winnipeg Fire Department.

[jacee]

No one said "not required". But like all sectors of the public services, they continue to grow even if they aren't needed as much.

Not true.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/res/stats/ssen-ane-eng.asp

Federal public employees (excluding RCMP):

2000 - 211k

2010 - 283k

2014 - 257k

Perhaps we have fewer fires because we have more firefighters doing fire prevention.

It's the same argument with cops: Less crime and more cops. To me that's quite logical: We have less crime because we have more crime prevention.

Some people interpret correlation inappropriately.

.

Edited May 7, 2015 by jacee

[Boges]

How do fire fires prevent fires? I think public awareness can be done without paying people for 7 days a month to stand by.

Fire alarms being mandated help more than anything. Plus the construction of good new homes.

I don't believe cops prevent any crime. They just clean up the mess after crime does happen and try to ruin the lives of people that speed.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Boges

[Bonam]

Firefighting should be done by drones anyway. Fly through the air for faster response time, don't put people in harm's way, etc.

[cybercoma]

No one said "not required". But like all sectors of the public services, they continue to grow even if they aren't needed as much.

That's wasteful.

They continue to grow because the population grows. We need more services to cover the sprawl of suburbs and whatnot. Whether the number of fires grows or not, they're insurance because when they're needed it's literally life or death. What you could question is whether or not paramedics are needed, since fire fighters do their job as well. However, paramedics have more advanced training when dealing with patients en route to the hospital. Firefighters are usually only trained as first responders. There's still a difference. Edited May 8, 2015 by cybercoma

[Rue]

Agree 100% with Cyber.

[Scotty]

Fire services need to be serious re-evaluated, but the problem is that they need specialized training AND they need to be respond immediately when there is a problem. It's difficult to cut back without giving them inadequate training or adversely affecting response times. Fires may be less common, but are you going to tell a community that if their homes catch on fire it will be 30 minutes before anyone can respond from the major city nearby?

A quick response to a fire is imperative. They grow horrifyingly fast. At the same time, only about 10% of fire department calls are now about fires The equipment and trained people need to be readily available, but the resources are badly misused. Firefighters often work only a half dozen 24hr shifts in a month, and much of their shifts are taken up by eating, showering, sleeping, and doing janitorial and equipment maintenance duties around the firehouse. For this their annual salaries are approaching $100,000.

Sending out a big truck with 5 guys on it to every little accident, stroke and heart attack call is a waste of resources. They'e sent because they're available and they're not doing anything else important. Amalgamating paramedic, ambulance and fire services as is done in a number of US cities, would ensure that those galumphing big fire trucks are not racing around the city to get to scenes where only 2 guys in a four by four can do the job. Almost all firefighters are cross-trained as paramedics anyway, and why are we hiring separate people to drive ambulances (also well paid) while $100,000 a year firefighters are busily washing floors and trucks and cleaning toilet bowls back at the firehall? Wouldn't it make more sense to hire a janitor for their halls if needed and have them driving ambulances?

[Boges]

I bolded this in the OP on purpose.

Over the 16-year period, the number of firefighters in Canada rose from 32,400 from 25,900. That amounts to a 25.1% increase, outpacing the country’s overall population growth, which is 16.2%.

The insurance industry is regulated. Governments don't need to ensure a rigid response just cuz.

Plenty of communities get by on a volunteer fire service.

Paramedics have better training than Firefighters but their Union isn't as strong. Ambulance services should be merged with Fire services (in Ontario however one is a municipal service and the other is provincial). That would save a huge amount of money and ensure that fire trucks show up followed by an ambulance. How much of a waste is that?

[DFCaper]

Isn't the biggest part of the problem that since they are essential services, they basically automatically go to arbitration and get ridicules agreements?

To me the problem really is the arbitration rules. They are set by the province, and since the unions bought and paid for the Ontario Government, the root cause cannot be fixed till Toronto stops being easily bought out by the Liberals.

[Boges]

Isn't the biggest part of the problem that since they are essential services, they basically automatically go to arbitration and get ridicules agreements?

To me the problem really is the arbitration rules. They are set by the province, and since the unions bought and paid for the Ontario Government, the root cause cannot be fixed till Toronto stops being easily bought out by the Liberals.

Yep, there's another active thread discussing that.

Firefighters pretty much get what they want because when challenged they'll just say that any cuts will lead to death and destruction. No one wants to hear that a good majority of their job is beating ambulances to medical calls and cooking.

[Smallc]

Amalgamating paramedic, ambulance and fire services as is done in a number of US cities, would ensure that those galumphing big fire trucks are not racing around the city to get to scenes where only 2 guys in a four by four can do the job.

It already is this way. I see it all the time. There still needs to be many large firetrucks (more than anything else) and rescue units, so sometimes, they're the only thing available to go.

[PIK]

Small town fireman do not need the same pay as someone in Toronto.

[Smallc]

Small town fireman do not need the same pay as someone in Toronto.

They don't get the same pay.

[Boges]

Should be the same for police. BUT NO!!!!! Gotta have the OPP police places that don't have their own service who have a pay matching scheme built into their contract with the Toronto Police Service.

IMHO Police should be paid based on the amount of "actual" police work they do based on where they're working. And that's not camping at the bottom of a hill on Sunday morning.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Boges

[eyeball]

They don't get the same pay.

No. In fact firemen are expected to work for free in most small towns.

In a day and age when the moral imperative and pressure on people to produce and pay their own way in the world is so strong volunteerism is almost unconscionable. Ironically the pressure people feel to produce more for less is increasing.

No surprise people are wondering why big city firemen shouldn't take a cut in pay when they compare them to their small town cousins.

[Argus]

They don't get the same pay.

Cite? Aside from volunteer firefighters my understanding is police and firefighters get roughly the same pay no matter where they are. At least in Ontario.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Argus

[DFCaper]

No. In fact firemen are expected to work for free in most small towns.

In a day and age when the moral imperative and pressure on people to produce and pay their own way in the world is so strong volunteerism is almost unconscionable. Ironically the pressure people feel to produce more for less is increasing.

No surprise people are wondering why big city firemen shouldn't take a cut in pay when they compare them to their small town cousins.

Volunteer Firefighters in Ontario get paid per call they respond to. I thought they were called volunteer because they don't get paid to sleep.

[Smallc]

Cite? Aside from volunteer firefighters my understanding is police and firefighters get roughly the same pay no matter where they are. At least in Ontario.

Certainly not in Manitoba. Winnipeg and Brandon have full time departments with Thompson and Portage having composite (part full time part volunteer). Winnipeg and Brandon firefighters get paid more (I don't have time to look right now but I've seen the numbers). There are also full time chiefs in smaller cities. They get paid less than even the regular firefighters in Winnipeg.

[Smallc]

No. In fact firemen are expected to work for free in most small towns.

In a day and age when the moral imperative and pressure on people to produce and pay their own way in the world is so strong volunteerism is almost unconscionable. Ironically the pressure people feel to produce more for less is increasing.

No surprise people are wondering why big city firemen shouldn't take a cut in pay when they compare them to their small town cousins.

Generally, in small towns, we're paid on call.

[Smallc]

Volunteer Firefighters in Ontario get paid per call they respond to. I thought they were called volunteer because they don't get paid to sleep.

They're generally not classified as volunteer anymore.