jbg Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 And Mulroney was vindicated in his support for the Canadian Antique Fishing Tackle Association. I'll try that joke out next time I'm in a Niagara bar debating some ignoramus who thinks we know nothing about Canada. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
BC_chick Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Oh look the Zionist Poo Poo Ka Ka Choir is singing Hava Nagillah again. Speaking of singing poo poo ka ka.... Do you remember our discussion a little while ago where you said you believed Netanyahu wants a peaceful two-state solution whereas Hamas only wants war? I believe it was during the gaza 'war' we had that debate. Remember how I said Bibi may say he wants a two state solution but his policies completely indicate otherwise? Yeah I totally remember that. That was kinda weird the way he finally admitted it. Personally, I didn't even find he was a good singer but you seemed to enjoy his ka ka.... just a little bit. No? Edited March 18, 2015 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
jacee Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 The New York Sun asks, in an editorial (link to article, excerpts below) (w)ill Obama Concede to Netanyahu. Obama essentially campaigned for Herzog, Netanyahu's opponent. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum; the IIsraeli electorate didn't enjoy foreign guidance. It may be too soon to say who won the election in Israel but its not too soon to say who lost President Obama. The President threw his personal prestige, and that of his office, into undermining and defeating Prime Minister Netanyahu. Acolytes of the president were thronging to an electioneering operation called V15 in the hopes of delivering the premiership to anyone but the leader of the Likud. ************************ More broadly though, it looks like what happened is that a hardheaded electorate, in a vibrant democracy, endorsed two broadly centrist factions. Mr. Netanyahu of Likud and Isaac Herzog of the Zionist Union both were buoyed by that instinct. So, as we see it, no matter what happens, Mr. Obamas attempt to paint Mr. Netanyahu as a marginal, rejectionist figure is shown for what it is a mark of disrespect for Israel itself. He should have stood on the sidelines. Will Mr. Obama concede his error? Obama had to walk a line of international law ... not be seen to be interfering in the elections of another country. He could not invite a foreign leader to use Congress as a campaign stop. The editorial is a little over the top. . Quote
Big Guy Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Israel has spoken and Netanyahu is back in power - with a policy of no Palestinian state and increasing new settlements. What little peace process there was, is dead. The Israeli populace has thumbed its nose at the USA and the UN. I assume that the USA will review why and how it will support Israel in the future. Netanyahu appears to have the support of the plurality of the country and now has another mandate. He should have no problems forming a government. From the Canadian side, I hope that our government realizes what the wishes of the Israeli people are and start negotiations with Iran. Israel is heading for more intensive confrontations within and soon with its neighbors. The great thing about a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. The flaw in a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. Look for more and increasing heat in the Middle East. Lets make sure Canada does not get burned. Edited March 18, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) First off to Moonlight, I apologize if I misunderstood your comment on Arafat being bad for peace. I acknowledge you criticized him in a post I read back. As for BC Chick I deserved her kick. I did say what I did and she deserves a kick at my Zionist buttox. BC, I do believe Netanyahu deliberately engaged in rhetoric in the final days of the last election to deliberately win back right wing votes, which he did. He absolutely stated in recent days there woud be no Palestinian state in his day. Yes. He also stated on Israeli t.v. directly to Israeli voters that Arab Israelis were turning out in huge numbers so Israelis better vote for him. That was discriminatory. Interestingly Arab Israeli parties have the third highest number of seats. What I have said BC Chick is that Netyanyahu engaged in divisive, polarizing and how I will say hateful language designed to invoke fear to get him votes and he succeeded. Based on what he said these last few months, you and others have fair game challenging his comments. Yes. Fair is fair. What I have said is I believe he is all hot air for votes. He postures and puffs and tries to make himself the Winston Churchill of Israel so to speak in terms of being the only man who can protect Israel. He uses fear to do that. For sure. He uses polarizing comments that play up to extremists on the right side of Israeli politics, for sure. On the other hand what you do not see is that while he now scambles to see if he can form a right of centre coalition, Kabour, Kadima, another Israel centrist party and the Arab vote whether he forms a coalition or not paralyze him. The reality of his power is its thread bare. The reality is his bark is worse than his bite. The reality is behind closed doors, he would make peace with the Palestinians in a second if he could. Netanyahu has said one thing, then done another repeatedly over the years. Its part of the game, In the Middle East nothing said is absolute. Nothing. Its all b.s. No one knows what anyone means. There is the public message and then the one behind closed doors. The show Netanyahu put on in Congress was to get votes at home for sure, but it was also for Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait and the UAE who like Israel are dead against capitulating to Iran and feels Obama has sold them all out and he certainly has to date and for the last 8 years and so I totally support Netanyahu's position on Iran and Obama but I am open and honest with my criticisms of him too. Where I differ from the anti Israelis is I openly criticize Netanyahu on some things, but support him on others and I am not like they, so blinded by bias I can't show that in debate. You want me to concede he can be an sob, no need. For what its worth, the relection of Netanyahu is not because Israelis love Netanyahu, Israelis hate all politicians, those who voted for him distrust Obama more at this point then Netanyahu and believe Netanyahu is the best counter-balance to Obama and I personally agree with that and do not blame them. You must believe me when I say to know Israelis is to know they consider all politicians equally as full of it. Their vote often comes down to who best can protect them from terrorism at the time of the election,. Domestically Netanyahu is a disaster with the economy, health, municipal issues. He's a bad internal leader. He has no interest in domestic politics and he is rude and bombastic, and lacks diplomacy. He admitted that. You can read the Israeli media and the lambasting he gets from his fellow Likud members. However for now on Iran, Israelis do not trust Iran getting the bomb and Obama that was what the election came down to choosing that the most important issue is to tell Obama they will not put up with him selling them out. This is not Israelis thumbing their nose up to Palestinians its a signal to Obama about Iran. In the coming months Netanyahu will be on delicate needles trying to maintain a coalition. The last time he tried to bring in right wing parties it collapsed and he had to bring both Labour and Kadima into his coalition and cabinet. That may very well happen again. The bottom line in Israel, is they want a tough guy on Iran and terrorists but a gentle diplomat with Palestinians. That is precisely why Tzipi Levni was brought in as Justice Minister. Netanyahu handed her the Palestinian portfolio a few years back while openly stating he would never give in to the PA. He said one thing for domestic consumption, but did another which was to send a clear signal to Palestinians he was offering them a dove to talk to who was much more flexible than he. His anger is over Hamas, and other terrorists as well as Iran and Obama who he sees as an out and out liar. This election will serve to warn Obama he has to deal with Netanyahu until he leaves office. That was the message Israelis gave out. Once Obama is gone politics in Israel might change if the next US President takes on the traditional approach of being principal allies with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel, not Turkey and Iran in the Middle East. Netanyahu is there because of Iran. If Iran stops being a political threat to Israel, he's bye bye. That said, kick away, Edited March 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
Shady Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 It is little wonder that Gaza sucks....the government is run by terrorists !! Exactly. Quote
Shady Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Israel has spoken and Netanyahu is back in power - with a policy of no Palestinian state and increasing new settlements. What little peace process there was, is dead. The Israeli populace has thumbed its nose at the USA and the UN. I assume that the USA will review why and how it will support Israel in the future. Netanyahu appears to have the support of the plurality of the country and now has another mandate. He should have no problems forming a government. From the Canadian side, I hope that our government realizes what the wishes of the Israeli people are and start negotiations with Iran. Israel is heading for more intensive confrontations within and soon with its neighbors. The great thing about a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. The flaw in a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. Look for more and increasing heat in the Middle East. Lets make sure Canada does not get burned. The no Palestinian state policy is just a starting point. Kinda like the Palestinian government policy of destroying Israel. One negotiates from those points to a middle ground, ie the acceptance of a state and an acceptance of Israel. Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Here's some analysis on Netantyahu's election victory stragey I would agree with and base my subjective opinions stated earlier on: source:https://ca.news.yahoo.com/final-results-israeli-election-show-resounding-victory-prime-054305972.html "Netanyahu focused his campaign primarily on security issues, while his opponents pledged to address the high cost of living and housing crisis while accusing him of being out of touch. Netanyahu will likely look to battle that image now by adding to his government Moshe Kahlon, whose upstart Kulanu party captured 10 seats with a campaign focused almost entirely on bread-and-butter economic issues. Kahlon is expected to be the next finance minister. A union of four largely Arab-backed factions became Israel's third largest party — with 14 seats — and gave Israel's Arab minority significant leverage in parliament for the first time. Ten parties in all made it into parliament So Netanyahu, widely recognized even by his foes as a shrewd politician, abruptly switched tack. After weeks of promoting himself as the only leader who could protect Israel against Iran, Hamas, and the Islamic State, he started talking about the things that were hurting Likud’s traditional blue-collar base – the skyrocketing cost of housing and groceries. He vowed to appoint as finance minister Moshe Kahlon of the Kulanu party, a former Likudnik from a humble background whose monopoly-busting policies reduced charges for cellphone plans by 90 percent. Netanyahu also openly cannibalized votes from estranged right-wing allies like Naftali Bennett’s Jewish Home party and Avigdor Lieberman’s Israel Beitenu. A day before the vote, he declared that there would be no Palestinian state on his watch, reneging on a 2009 pledge of support for the two-state solution to the Middle East conflict." Here's a take on how the Gulf states I mentioned will have two takes on Netanyahu's win, one in support of his stance on Iran, the other not happy about what he said about the West Bank: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/netanyahu-owes-win-jitters-over-iran-gulf-official-093448826.html Based on the below comments I would argue Netanyahu will not alienate his reluctant Gulf allies over Palestine. This is about Iran. He needs them, He is not about to piss them off. He postured to right wingers get back in, now he has to deal with reality. "Gulf Arabs identified with Israel's fear of Iran's influence, suggested Sami alFaraj, a Kuwaiti security adviser to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), which comprises Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Kuwait. "On the one hand, there's pessimism about Netanyahu's declared policies not to divide Jerusalem and not to establish a Palestinian state," he said. "On the other, there's a feeling in the Gulf that some of his tough stances could be loosened later, especially if there is a convergence of views in the region around Iran." "Without any sense of collusion with Israel, there is a feeling of affinity in the Gulf with Israel's stance on curbing the influence of Iran in the area." He said the Iranian nuclear talks were "really scary" for Gulf Arab states, which are unnerved by Iran's backing for Shi'ite forces in conflicts in Iraq and Syria and its alliances with Lebanon's Hezbollah movement and Yemen's Houthi militia. There was also a feeling that Netanyahu's victory boded ill for moribund Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts. Khaled al-Maeena, a veteran Saudi journalist and political analyst, told Reuters about Netanyahu: "Here is a man who destroyed Gaza and said there would be no Palestinian state. So this does not make us feel there will be happy times ahead. He's bent on destroying." Edited March 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) The no Palestinian state policy is just a starting point. Kinda like the Palestinian government policy of destroying Israel. One negotiates from those points to a middle ground, ie the acceptance of a state and an acceptance of Israel. Dead on. He won't endanger his need for support from Gulf states by doing anything major in the West Bank. Its a balancing act. To get support from them on Iran, he can't get hard on Palestinians. He has their support against Iran and even Sunni extremists but not on things they perceive unfair to Palestinians. The reality is its the same status quo. A lot of huff and puff about the West Bank but assigning someone who is a dove to that portfolio. One thing Netanyahu has done is sound tough, while behind closed doors actually being quite flexible with certain Palestinian demands. The references to Jerusalem remaining in Israel are interesting because he has said that continuously but he is the same person instrumental in creatin self governing zones for Palestinians in Jerusalem. The bark and the bite are not one and the same. On the other hand he is a tough stubborn bastard on terrorism. He won't do a damn thing to allow terrorists any sign of capitulation. That may come across negative to the anti Israeli squadron on this board, but probably a releif to Abbas who depends on the same Netanyahu to keep him from being killed by Hamas who tried once already and were stopped by Israeli counter-intelligence. That attempted assassination happened after the idiot John Kerry gave both Israel and Abbas the signal he was supporting Hamas. Edited March 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 From the Netenyahu Over Patriotism thread. I wonder if this kind of behavior is preventing new members from participating in some threads. Yah they are frightened by me. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) First off to Moonlight, I apologize if I misunderstood your comment on Arafat being bad for peace. I acknowledge you criticized him in a post I read back. Thank you, I appreciate the apology. It's rare on online forums when someone will admit a mistake, so kudos. Edited March 18, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Hudson Jones Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 The no Palestinian state policy is just a starting point. So you mean kind of like how Israel doesn't negotiate with Hamas because they don't accept Israel? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Hudson Jones Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 In his last term, nothing good happened with respect to Israelis. Palestinian peace is in shamble. Israeli standard of living has deteriorated. There has been a global rise in antisemitism. What would the next term bring? More of the same? Expanded middle-east wars? A tragedy in the making. I guess the only good thing is the speed in which the governments around the world will reject Israel as a result of public pressure, like they did with Apartheid South Africa (bff's with Israel!) Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Topaz Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Was there really any doubt, like Harper, he had help from this "friends". Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Moonlight thank you.I debate you hard but have utmost respect. Quote
Shady Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 So you mean kind of like how Israel doesn't negotiate with Hamas because they don't accept Israel? Yes. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 Yes. So no negotiations all around. Because Israel (officially now), does not recognize a Palestinian State. Wait. Likud's platform has been to never allow a Palestinian State. This comment by Bibi is just news to the mainstream. Anyone who has some knowledge beyond the Hasbara noise, knows, through Israel's actions and of course, Likud's platform that the Israeli government has never really been interested in a Palestinian State. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
jbg Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 Israel has spoken and Netanyahu is back in power - with a policy of no Palestinian state and increasing new settlements. What little peace process there was, is dead. The Israeli populace has thumbed its nose at the USA and the UN. I assume that the USA will review why and how it will support Israel in the future. Netanyahu appears to have the support of the plurality of the country and now has another mandate. He should have no problems forming a government. I literally don't know what you're talking about. If the Arabs wanted peace they could have had it. The Arabs need first and foremost to stop teaching their children hate and murder. How can Israel accept any diplomatic solution that puts the Arabs one inch closer to their dream of annihilating Israel? Why is Obama's partisan desire to rival Nixon's "accomplishments" of surrender, err, peace or detente, with China and Russia? From the Canadian side, I hope that our government realizes what the wishes of the Israeli people are and start negotiations with Iran. Israel is heading for more intensive confrontations within and soon with its neighbors.The great thing about a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. The flaw in a democracy is that you elect who is most popular. Look for more and increasing heat in the Middle East. Lets make sure Canada does not get burned. Why, because some mad Iranian mullahs want to incinerate their enemies. Or at best make it logistically and politically impossible to restrain them? The Obama/G5+1 negotiations are insane. Iran is not about to give up its fundamental objectives. There are two "elephants in the corner": The Iranians don't need nuclear energy; and The West is far more powerful and does not need to be pushed around. Netanyahu, for all his faults, at least talks like an adult. Others talk baby talk. Summer camp counselors can tell their 6 year old charges what a better world it would be without war. It is not an adult proposal to simply lay down arms when we all know what will happen when we do. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) This election will serve to warn Obama he has to deal with Netanyahu until he leaves office. That was the message Israelis gave out. Once Obama is gone politics in Israel might change if the next US President takes on the traditional approach of being principal allies with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel, not Turkey and Iran in the Middle East. Netanyahu is there because of Iran. If Iran stops being a political threat to Israel, he's bye bye. I agree with that part of your post. The Arabs (and Iran) are going to get one flavor of hardliner or another as long as either poses an existential threat to Israel as a Jewish state. Edited March 19, 2015 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Big Guy Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Posted March 19, 2015 With the election of Netanyahu, Israel has drawn a line in the sand. Bibi campaigned on two major issues: No Palestinian state and no end to settlements on disputed land. He Won. The Israelis wear that decision. This new approach has given the West, Canada and the rest of the world a choice - support Israel in subverting all Palestinians and allowing Israel to throw them off their lands or not support Israel. I say the Israelis have made a decision. They have taken the route of aggression, consolidation and annexation of Palestinian land. There will be consequences to that decision. I just trust that Israel will suffer those consequences (good or bad) and Canadians will be smart enough to stay away when the bombs start bursting. Release the dogs of war. Let Israel win or lose on their policies. But do not get Canadians involved in this aggression. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 Release the dogs of war. Let Israel win or lose on their policies. But do not get Canadians involved in this aggression. The West and not just Israel are the protagonists here. You are basically saying it's OK with you if the Jewish State is the first victim, maybe they'll just leave us alone. We learned, on September 11, 2001 that is hardly true. Remember Israel's PM at that time was Labor. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
marcus Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 The West and not just Israel are the protagonists here. Israel is the protagonist and the economic ($3 billion+ a year) and political (veto) support is the enabler. Soon enough, most of Europe will stop supporting Israel and the U.S. will follow suit. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
marcus Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) The Arabs need first and foremost to stop teaching their children hate and murder. There you go again, whitewashing Israel's decades long racism, hate and murderous policy. The Iranians don't need nuclear energy; Thanks for coming out. Everyone needs alternate energy. Nuclear is one of those options. There is only 40-50 years of oil left on earth. Edited March 19, 2015 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
marcus Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 We all know if Bibi loses the election you'll be amped up. Nice ploy to project joy at the thought of him winning, we'll understand if you're bummed for the next couple of weeks. Short term disappointment for long term gain. This is how I see it. There is no hope for the racist state of Israel to change itself. Their society and culture is sick. The only way for things to change is if the world comes together and forces them to change and Bibi will expedite that reality. The BDS movement is going to pick up more steam and the world's governments will be forced to respond to their people. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Moonlight Graham Posted March 19, 2015 Report Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) With the election of Netanyahu, Israel has drawn a line in the sand. Bibi campaigned on two major issues: No Palestinian state and no end to settlements on disputed land. He Won. The Israelis wear that decision. This new approach has given the West, Canada and the rest of the world a choice - support Israel in subverting all Palestinians and allowing Israel to throw them off their lands or not support Israel. I say the Israelis have made a decision. They have taken the route of aggression, consolidation and annexation of Palestinian land. There will be consequences to that decision. I completely agree. With Netanyahu's reelection on very clear election promises and a clear track record backing up those promises, nobody can simply blame the government and not Israeli citizens for the government's actions because the gov has now been given an approved mandate by citizens to maintain no state for Palestine, to continue with the illegal/immoral settlements, and to beat war drums with Iran. Any good or bad that comes from this for Israel, Israelis must wear it. Personally I find this unacceptable. Canada should withdraw its unwavering support for Israel and introduce economic sanctions until it agrees again to work towards peace and stop the settlements. The settlements are simply evil, designed to steal land from Palestinians. Israel is a state founded upon a united religious identity, but I doubt Yahweh would approve. The irony is overwhelming. Edited March 19, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
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