Leave Canada And Go To Jail

GostHacked · March 14, 2015

Sure, if we want to lose all perspective.

It's part of the perspective. Bombing other nations only increases our risk of foreign terrorism. We keep bombing them, they keep fighting back, and the government tells us to be scared of those terrorists we seem to create via our foreign policy.

Smallc · March 14, 2015

It's part of the perspective. Bombing other nations only increases our risk of foreign terrorism. We keep bombing them, they keep fighting back, and the government tells us to be scared of those terrorists we seem to create via our foreign policy.

We're bombing them, because they're killing innocent people. Perspective.

GostHacked · March 14, 2015

And we continue to run in circles.

Signals.Cpl · March 14, 2015

To Signals.Cpl - I really do not want to get into some pi$$ing match with you. I believe that we both would like to see Canada safe from terrorists. I am trying to follow your proposed solution - stop them from leaving. As I understand your point, from your previous post, you suggest that the RCMP "does not have the resources" to keep track of potential Canadian terrorists coming back into Canada. But you appear to feel that they do have enough resources to identify potential terrorists here. I disagree with that point. I believe that we have thousands, perhaps tens of thousands "potential" terrorists depending on what kind of profiling is being used. I suggest that there are less than 10 who have left to join the terrorists, most of which have been killed and no examples of any trying to come back.

I am not trying to get in to a piling match either, what I am suggesting is that we prevent those who want to join ISIS from doing so, I have no desire to see random people being denied movement to Iraq, Syria or Turkey if we don't have proof they intent to go there and do harm to our troops, our allies or the citizens of those countries.

Putting someone under investigation requires time, money and manpower and none of those things are unlimited. When the RCMP identifies a potential threat we need to contain that threat as opposed to allowing them to leave the country, receive training and subsequently return to Canada with training and experience under their belt. We cannot stop everyone nor can we Identify every potential threat but we have to try as best we can and keep those with terrorist ideologies from getting the experience and/or training to make them that much more dangerous.

As to allowing them back in - certainly - and arrest them at the border and bring them to trial for their crimes.

How do you prove someone fought for ISIS in Iraq or Syria? Or received weapons, training and funds from them? We cannot stop all who desire to fight for ISIS from going but we have a duty to identify and prevent as many as we can and unfortunately it will not be a very likely scenario for us to throw every one who comes back from fighting for ISIS in jail for treason. But not stoping them from going and being unable to subsequently prosecute them seems like the worst option of the bunch.

It seems to me we are creating another kind of criminal - one jailed within the country of Canada. We have people who break our laws so we bring them to trial and then incarcerate them if/when we find them guilty. The other type of new criminal is one who WE THINK is leaving the country to do mischief elsewhere. These people are never judged, just found guilty of wanting to leave to join another country so we incarcerate them in Canada.

Then what is the solution? Letting everyone who idolizes ISIS go and join them to rape, murder and oppress women just because they had the nerve to learn? To work? I, like millions of Canadians have no problem leaving the country because I do not go to other countries to rape, murder or oppress anyone, I do not go to other countries to commit what equates to warcrimes. There are enough of our citizens who are committing atrocities with/for ISIS, the last thing we need is to allow more of them to go.

If someone is breaking any law in Canada then charge them, bring them to trial and then apply the appropriate penalty. What law are you breaking if you want to leave?

So we sent in observers to document everything so we can prosecute returning terrorists for their crimes in Iraq and Syria? I'm sure the oppressed and dead will be very grateful for our prompt actions.

I find it ludicrous that if we find a citizen of another country has interest in joining a terrorist organization then we deport them - force them to leave Canada. But a Canadian - I guess is deported or imported or supported or whatever to have to stay in Canada.

If a Canadian citizen breaks Canadian law then put him/her in jail - if not - then let them go.

Would you feel the same way if the RCMP know, not think but know that someone desires to go and join ISIS only to return a year later with training, experience and funds to start killing people In Canada?

Big Guy · March 15, 2015

Both of those Canadian "terrorists" tried to leave Canada. Both were "denied". Both then proceeded to kill innocent Canadians.

If both these guys were allowed to leave then two innocent Canadians would be alive today. It looks like there are those on this board who would prefer that these disturbed individuals kill Canadians rather than fight in some civil war somewhere in the world.

I disagree.

Signals.Cpl · March 15, 2015

Both of those Canadian "terrorists" tried to leave Canada. Both were "denied". Both then proceeded to kill innocent Canadians.

And if they had actually gone overseas and had any kind of training they might have been much more dangerous causing more casualties… letting them go fight for ISIS while hoping they get killed is not a plan, they could have caused mass casualties with the resources at hand and they didn't, letting them go to get trained wouldn't make them any less deadly.

If both these guys were allowed to leave then two innocent Canadians would be alive today.

And dozens of innocent Iraqi's, Syrians or Kurds might be dead… but then again apparently Canadian lives are more important, I guess we can save on prisons if we export our violent criminals to Iraq and Syria as well… right?

It looks like there are those on this board who would prefer that these disturbed individuals kill Canadians rather than fight in some civil war somewhere in the world.

I disagree.

It is OUR problem to deal with not women and children on the other side of the world… I get the sense that you value Canadian lives above others especially since it will be Canadians doing the killings.

Let me ask you a question: Are you opposed because you think it infringes their rights or is it because you think it is better that they kill someone far away and out of sight instead of one of us?

Big Guy · March 15, 2015

I think everybody has had a shot at this topic. So be it.

I would rather that nobody get killed anywhere. Both these Canadian "terrorists" stated that their motivation was the Canadian involvement and carnage in the Middle East. If Canada would have stayed the hell out of those civil wars there would be no need for any anti-terrorist bill or any funerals for terrorist victims.

I believe that all views have been presented and I leave it to each poster to make up his/her mind.

That, I believe, is the intent of these boards.

Signals.Cpl · March 15, 2015

I think everybody has had a shot at this topic. So be it.

I would rather that nobody get killed anywhere. Both these Canadian "terrorists" stated that their motivation was the Canadian involvement and carnage in the Middle East. If Canada would have stayed the hell out of those civil wars there would be no need for any anti-terrorist bill or any funerals for terrorist victims.

I believe that all views have been presented and I leave it to each poster to make up his/her mind.

That, I believe, is the intent of these boards.

By our simple proximity to the US(Geographical, political, economic etc…) we are a target, for us to stop being a target we have to essentially commit national suicide economically. Do you think that those terrorists would have been peaceful if Canada had no involvement in Syria/Iraq? Don't you think that they might have found a different reason for them to commit acts of terror against us?

You have made it pretty clear that you want those individuals to leave Canada so that no Canadians die, but if we weren't involved in Syria and Iraq they would still be going to want to join ISIS and they would still be just as dangerous when they come back.

Keepitsimple · March 15, 2015

I think everybody has had a shot at this topic. So be it.

I would rather that nobody get killed anywhere. Both these Canadian "terrorists" stated that their motivation was the Canadian involvement and carnage in the Middle East. If Canada would have stayed the hell out of those civil wars there would be no need for any anti-terrorist bill or any funerals for terrorist victims.

I believe that all views have been presented and I leave it to each poster to make up his/her mind.

That, I believe, is the intent of these boards.

Whoa - pretty sanctimonious stuff....especially for the guy who starts it off by saying that we shouldn't stop people from leaving Canada to engage in killing and mayhem. That's right - people who have been under investigation and we have pretty solid information that they WILL, either directly or indirectly kill people. Then when you realize how dumb that sounds, you say that we can arrest them for treason and their crimes when they return - as if we have cops running around after these guys gathering evidence. It was a dumb position to start with and hopefully it has run its course.....but to preach about these boards after all that....is laughable.

eyeball · March 15, 2015

If we were really serious about putting a dent in terrorism we'd be arresting the politicians, public officials and corporate executives responsible for going abroad and causing the grievances that terrorist groups exploit.

Of course then we'd be faced with the horror of trying to increase corporate wealth and state power without any public terror to exploit. It just wouldn't be fair. It would be even crazier than getting serious about curbing CO2 emissions.

nerve · March 15, 2015

No one has said anything different.No it isnt. Double jeopardy is trying someone twice for the same act.If aCanuck is charged and prosecuted in a foreign land, then it ends there when he is sentenced. The laws are srtict about that.Can you name a single act thats legal in another country that we would prosecute for upon return?Like smoking dope in Colorado? Nope.Maybe bullfighting in Spain? NopeGetting jiggy w a hooker in Amsterdam?NopeIf its legal there....have fun and enjoy your trip.A free person in Canada is never controlled by a foreign state barring a warrant and extradition by treaty for acts they commited outside of Canada.Simple fact.So......you WANT to be stateless , you want to be somehwere on this earth ? Im merely guessing but the only place you could be stateless is on Antarctica (even tho there are treaties there...but lets go with this)Bring money, lots and lots of money. Shipments come maybe twice a year, Jan and Feb, cash only. Bring lots of wood and fuel oil, plenty of water too.Satellite phone is probably $10 a minute so Netflix is out. So surfing porn.And now you know the rest of the story. Paul Harvey...Good day!You need to slow down and manage your thoughts here.People are not states. Dont conflate the two.It certainly is Canada's business what others are doing in foreign jurisdictions even though largely they dont care nor monitor....until some time they are asked to, in which case they do monitor.Good thing that doesnt happen huh?

Many questions, I will try to respond.

1. Busted for Training in military arts, and engaging in political and religious teachings. What about sex in Albania where age of consent is only 14? Pedro in Canada not albania, austria, argentina, Brazil, Brunei, bulgaria

Burkino FASA is 13... Chile 12....Columbia 12 mexico 12?

Point is legal age of consent varies Pedro here, not rape there.

Yes there should be a global citizenship for the stateless where human rights are upheld. People should be able to escape national socialism. Sat phones are about 1 dollar a minute

People should have human rights upheld like mobility rights and right to employment, and inclusion. the base of all nations laws should be inclusive of international human rights and all peoples in those territories should have those benefits.

Edited March 15, 2015 by nerve

-TSS- · March 15, 2015

I don't know about the Canadian law but in Finland you can be prosecuted if you have sex with underaged people even if the crime happens overseas, in Thailand for example. How can they prove such a crime has taken place is beyond my comprehension.

Michael Hardner · March 15, 2015

We're bombing them, because they're killing innocent people. Perspective.

Does that also explain why we're bombing innocent people ?

LemonPureLeaf · March 15, 2015

Does that also explain why we're bombing innocent people ?

. Its war. People get killed in war. Unfortunate but it happens. No big deal. Why care about the enemy?

Michael Hardner · March 15, 2015

. Its war. People get killed in war. Unfortunate but it happens. No big deal. Why care about the enemy?

You sort of pivoted away from the point that was being made and started a new thread.

Anyway, you could also just send that sentence to the terrorists for them to use. The idea that we don't care about "the enemy" erases any moral high ground you presume to have.

WWWTT · March 15, 2015

We're bombing them, because they're killing innocent people. Perspective.

When was the trial that found this?

WWWTT

Keepitsimple · March 15, 2015

. Its war. People get killed in war. Unfortunate but it happens. No big deal. Why care about the enemy?

You went too far with that one. Unacceptable. Not everyone is the enemy - not even close. As a matter of fact, we are in Iraq to save Iraqis and Kurds FROM the enemy - ISIS. Why do you think Isralis try to call people in buildings before they knock them down.....or drop fliers in neighbourhoods before any attacks.....it's because they know that civilians are not the enemy. A cynic would say we only care because of the bad press - but c'mon, there are families out there that are just trying to survive - to feed their children and get by......and there is no better way to get someone to hate you than by killing innocents. That's why in the long run, ISIS and like ideologies are doomed.

eyeball · March 15, 2015

Do we warn the innocent populations of the dictators we arm and outfit to vacate their countries lest they be disspossed, arrested, raped, tortured and murdered by our accomplices?

I don't see much difference between dying in a torture chamber, under a plane load of bombs or by any other means we employ to advance or interests, do you?

Smallc · March 15, 2015

Does that also explain why we're bombing innocent people ?

Do we ever purposefully do that?

eyeball · March 15, 2015

We purposefully inflict dictators on innocent people, what possible difference is there between doing that and simply bombing them?

Michael Hardner · March 15, 2015

Do we ever purposefully do that?

Of course we do. It's called collateral damage.

Anyway, the original point I was responding to was: "We're bombing them, because they're killing innocent people."

cybercoma · March 15, 2015

Anyway, the original point I was responding to was: "We're bombing them, because they're killing innocent people."

Which is exactly what they say.

GostHacked · March 15, 2015

Do we ever purposefully do that?

We meaning the West or maybe more accurately NATO. Just a couple small fires..

Michael Hardner · March 15, 2015

Which is exactly what they say.

As I told LemLeaf:

"Anyway, you could also just send that sentence to the terrorists for them to use. "

Argus · March 15, 2015

It looks like there are those on this board who would prefer that these disturbed individuals kill Canadians rather than fight in some civil war somewhere in the world.

I disagree.

Some people whose motives I suppose I should not speculate on, feel that would-be terrorists should be permitted to go overseas and make contacts among terrorist groups, where they can gain experience and training in weapons use and explosives, and then come back to Canada. Then, instead of old hunting rifles and cars they could probably use automatic weapons and homemade explosives to cause far more deaths and injuries.

I disagree.