Michael Hardner Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 Unfortunately you'll have to wait until the from-my-cold-dead-hands generation is replaced. I don't think that's true. Automated cars should be able to share the road with driver-driven vehicles don't you think ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Wilber Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 I don't think that's true. Automated cars should be able to share the road with driver-driven vehicles don't you think ? And they will obey speed limits. OH, THE HORROR! Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 I don't think that's true. Automated cars should be able to share the road with driver-driven vehicles don't you think ? No I think it'll have to be one or the other. 'Drivers' of automated cars are expected to remain vigilant and ready to take over the controls of the vehicle at a moment's notice. I submit this is a really unrealistic expectation given people's attention spans. I fail to see how a person could keep their attention on the road and the controls while not actually controlling anything for more than a handful of minutes at best. What if they suddenly reacted to a bird or a cat and swerved into the path of some driver who was about to pass him when they're both doing 120 clicks? I think the mix of driven and driverless vehicles will result in slower traffic and more jams and accidents. I can see a mix of automated and manual roads or maybe separated lanes on a highway where the vehicle's controls are automatically taken over or relinquished accordingly. Obviously the driver would be warned and instructed when to take over. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Delete DP. Edited March 8, 2015 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
PrimeNumber Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 No I think it'll have to be one or the other. 'Drivers' of automated cars are expected to remain vigilant and ready to take over the controls of the vehicle at a moment's notice. I submit this is a really unrealistic expectation given people's attention spans. I fail to see how a person could keep their attention on the road and the controls while not actually controlling anything for more than a handful of minutes at best. What if they suddenly reacted to a bird or a cat and swerved into the path of some driver who was about to pass him when they're both doing 120 clicks? I think the mix of driven and driverless vehicles will result in slower traffic and more jams and accidents. I can see a mix of automated and manual roads or maybe separated lanes on a highway where the vehicle's controls are automatically taken over or relinquished accordingly. Obviously the driver would be warned and instructed when to take over. Just like eyeball said. It should be either one or the other. Automated machines have been proven time and time again to be safer than humans, first in the work place and now on the road as well. Baring an internal system failure there is really no reason to be more afraid of having your car driven for you. Google has already shown through data collected from it's self-driving vehicles that they can maintain better road safety standards than the average human. Even with the possibility of system failure the odds are still stacked against human drivers. I suspect that once we really start seeing the mass scale roll out of affordable electric cars, the next step will be automated driving vehicles. Though it may take some time before we see affordable ones. The auto-industry compared to the technology available moves at an incredibly slow pace, this could have more to do with safety standards than anything else though. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Michael Hardner Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 'Drivers' of automated cars are expected to remain vigilant and ready to take over the controls of the vehicle at a moment's notice. Where did you get that ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Wilber Posted March 7, 2015 Report Posted March 7, 2015 It will be sooner than we think and the roads will be shared. Machines are much better monitors than humans, they don't go to sleep, get drunk, stoned or suffer from road rage. They will learn the rules of the road and always abide by them. Wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, being involved in an accident while driving manually will be an offence, like texting. It won't happen all at once, automation will be introduced in stages as the technology develops just like it has in aviation and many other fields. http://www.wired.com/2015/01/rode-500-miles-self-driving-car-saw-future-boring/ Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Where did you get that ?From different posters in similar threads in the past. Mostly stemming from a lack of faith in automation I think. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Michael Hardner Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 From different posters in similar threads in the past. Mostly stemming from a lack of faith in automation I think. I'm wondering if there are any other examples where a human is declared the failsafe for a machine. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I've used Watch-Mate alarms on boats that were on autopilot. They're intended to keep you awake so you maintain a proper watch when you're the only one on duty, which is almost always the case when fishing. You set the alarm on a 10 or 15 minute schedule. A light flashes just before the alarm sounds warning you to push a button that prevents an ear splitting screech. If you fall asleep behind the wheel... I knew a guy who programmed his navigating program to take the boat all the way into the harbour around all the rocks and bends and turns on autopilot but he forgot to turn his watch alarm on. He woke up at the dock and so did everybody on board the boat he collided with that was tied up there. I'm pretty sure there are more than a few who will jog slowly at night at a couple knots of speed with course and radar alarms set to pick up other boats and grab an hour's sleep between sets. I've seen guys grab15 minutes sleep standing at the rail waiting for a deep set to come up to the surface. Automated driving will be great....I can hardly wait. I drove off the road once on the way home after a long run in from out at sea and home is only 10 minutes from the dock. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I'm wondering if there are any other examples where a human is declared the failsafe for a machine. Yes...for the release and launch of nuclear weapons, sub-sunk emergency beacon buoys...stuff like that. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Would you be happy taking your seat in an aircraft knowing there were no pilots in the cockpit..I am familiar with the technology, but ya know what, I want someone up there who can think outside the box if need be. Quote
PrimeNumber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 The machines are taking over. First it was the workplace, now the roads. I wonder how long it will be until the majority of the world becomes automated and how differently society will function. I suppose some may fear this change, I embrace it. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
On Guard for Thee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 i embrace a lot of it. If only I had GPS to rely on I wouldnt have had to work so damn hard at map reading as a you pilot back in the day, flying over the north bush. Quote
eyeball Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 The machines are taking over. First it was the workplace, now the roads. I wonder how long it will be until the majority of the world becomes automated and how differently society will function. I suppose some may fear this change, I embrace it. I'm always perplexed by one thing. Despite every manual job potentially being eliminated by a machine every human being will still be under a moral imperative to produce something to justify their existence. Given how hard ideological feelings are towards being self sufficient and against anyone getting anything for free am I to believe society will be able to accept that there will be vast and I mean vast numbers of human beings for whom no work will ever exist without imploding? I guess war for the sake of war and killing off every redundant human being will be the solution. I wouldn't be too quick to embrace this without a little more thought. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Derek 2.0 Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 It will be sooner than we think and the roads will be shared. Machines are much better monitors than humans, they don't go to sleep, get drunk, stoned or suffer from road rage. They will learn the rules of the road and always abide by them. Wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, being involved in an accident while driving manually will be an offence, like texting. It won't happen all at once, automation will be introduced in stages as the technology develops just like it has in aviation and many other fields. http://www.wired.com/2015/01/rode-500-miles-self-driving-car-saw-future-boring/ Though I don't doubt it will happen one day (When did they automate the shuttle craft in Star Trek again?), I don't expect it anytime soon, as both my wife and I have had several bolters with park assist features, from several different higher end makers...... Quote
PrimeNumber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I'm always perplexed by one thing. Despite every manual job potentially being eliminated by a machine every human being will still be under a moral imperative to produce something to justify their existence. Given how hard ideological feelings are towards being self sufficient and against anyone getting anything for free am I to believe society will be able to accept that there will be vast and I mean vast numbers of human beings for whom no work will ever exist without imploding? I guess war for the sake of war and killing off every redundant human being will be the solution. I wouldn't be too quick to embrace this without a little more thought. The moral stigma will change with every passing generation until it's the norm to have much more free time than work time. To the point when a part time job is considered full time. We can already see this change in the amount of hours worked going from 60 to an average of 40 over the last 100 years. People from the 1800's would presumably consider anyone who worked a 40 hour work week as being lazy. When machines take over more and more mainstream jobs we will begin to need more specialists to mostly run diagnostics and maintenance on these machines. Lower management positions will be done away with and eventually a 20-30 hour work week will be the norm. People will hopefully get paid more, work less and have more free time to do whatever entertains them. With more people working less, it will create more jobs for everyone else. Most places will operate 24/7, 365 to make up for that fact. Which only increases production. Think about it.. automated machines never need a day off, do not need mandatory vacation time, won't call in sick, won't be on maternal or paternal leave, they don't sleep, don't have to use the washroom and don't need breaks or lunch's and best of all you don't have to pay them. They are the perfect worker and as long as capitalism is the prevailing economic driver of the land, corporations will continue to do what is best for the bottom line. Automation will take over, it's just a matter of when at this point. This is my theory anyways, so long as the remaining workers are able to keep wages higher against the corporations, which shouldn't be a problem with the extra money going around, the world will continue to turn. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Michael Hardner Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I'm always perplexed by one thing. Despite every manual job potentially being eliminated by a machine every human being will still be under a moral imperative to produce something to justify their existence. Great insight. Why does that happen ? Because the economic facts of technological progress under our system ensure that the gains will initially go to those who own the technology. What happens next ? Society finds itself with less "work" to do. If we were still in a tribal situation, with no money, it would be an easy gain - less work for everybody ! Instead, those who gain the most from the technological progress hoard the benefits and a reactionary view of those who are put out of work is propogated. Given how hard ideological feelings are towards being self sufficient and against anyone getting anything for free am I to believe society will be able to accept that there will be vast and I mean vast numbers of human beings for whom no work will ever exist without imploding? I guess war for the sake of war and killing off every redundant human being will be the solution. I wouldn't be too quick to embrace this without a little more thought. The forty hour work week was a hard and bloody fight, but it re-mapped the field of play and set the framework for the creation of a new kind of middle class. It will be a lot harder to make the 4-day work week a thing. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 The moral stigma will change with every passing generation until it's the norm to have much more free time than work time. To the point when a part time job is considered full time. We can already see this change in the amount of hours worked going from 60 to an average of 40 over the last 100 years. People from the 1800's would presumably consider anyone who worked a 40 hour work week as being lazy. I know people who feel fortunate to put in 50 - 60 hours a week and some who've even taken an hourly pay cut to do so. The need for more money in working people's hands has never been greater. When machines take over more and more mainstream jobs we will begin to need more specialists to mostly run diagnostics and maintenance on these machines. Lower management positions will be done away with and eventually a 20-30 hour work week will be the norm. People will hopefully get paid more, work less and have more free time to do whatever entertains them. With more people working less, it will create more jobs for everyone else. Most places will operate 24/7, 365 to make up for that fact. Which only increases production. Think about it.. automated machines never need a day off, do not need mandatory vacation time, won't call in sick, won't be on maternal or paternal leave, they don't sleep, don't have to use the washroom and don't need breaks or lunch's and best of all you don't have to pay them. They are the perfect worker and as long as capitalism is the prevailing economic driver of the land, corporations will continue to do what is best for the bottom line. Automation will take over, it's just a matter of when at this point. This is my theory anyways, so long as the remaining workers are able to keep wages higher against the corporations, which shouldn't be a problem with the extra money going around, the world will continue to turn. What extra money? Every indicator out there is demonstrating the opposite of what you're hoping for. I haven't had a wage increase in 8 years, in fact I took a pay cut despite further training to increase my skill-sets. So far my job can't be replaced with a machine but I can be replaced by someone willing to work for less and that should explain why I'm looking for another employer at the moment. I think the changes in morality surrounding mass unemployment will need to happen in a time frame that is far far shorter and sooner than you're suggesting and further to that they'll need to be made yesterday and almost entirely at the top of the economic food chain. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Though I don't doubt it will happen one day (When did they automate the shuttle craft in Star Trek again?), I don't expect it anytime soon, as both my wife and I have had several bolters with park assist features, from several different higher end makers...... When I bought my first PC over 25 years ago I thought I had it made. Who will ever need more than 1MB of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Would you be happy taking your seat in an aircraft knowing there were no pilots in the cockpit..I am familiar with the technology, but ya know what, I want someone up there who can think outside the box if need be. Slight difference, an aircraft can't pull over to the side of the road and stop. We've had driverless transit sytems running for decades. Vancouver's Skytrain for example. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
On Guard for Thee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Slight difference, an aircraft can't pull over to the side of the road and stop. We've had driverless transit sytems running for decades. Vancouver's Skytrain for example. ave you heard the one about while people are getting seated prior to a flight and on comes the PA saying....Ladies and gents, this aircraft is so far advanced it can be flown strictly by technology, there are no pilots on board. Enjoy the flight and be assured nothing can go wrong... go wrong...., go wrong,.... go wrong............ Quote
Wilber Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Yes but if a self driving vehicle senses it is having a problem it can just pull over, shut down an probably call a tow truck on its own. No such option on an aircraft. To some degree our vehicles do that already by going into limp mode when a computer senses a problem that could result in engine or transmission damage. I agree that there are far more veriables with large aircraft and often lengthy checklists involved when something goes wrong. BTW Aren't there some on this forum claiming there is no point going ahead with the F-35 because it will soon be replaced by unmanned fighters? We can could build computers to control $90M unmanned aircraft that can engage in air to air combat but not ones that can drive a car? We can replace pilots that took years and millions to train but not someone with a Class 5 drivers license? I don't think so. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Derek 2.0 Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 When I bought my first PC over 25 years ago I thought I had it made. Who will ever need more than 1MB of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive. Right, but if your PC has a fault, it doesn't have the potential to kill a family driving on the Trans-Canada..... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 BTW Aren't there some on this forum claiming there is no point going ahead with the F-35 because it will soon be replaced by unmanned fighters? We can could build computers to control $90M unmanned aircraft that can engage in air to air combat but not ones that can drive a car? We can replace pilots that took years and millions to train but not someone with a Class 5 drivers license? I don't think so. That's not so, current (and near term) UAVs very much so have human input (Predators and Global Hawks for example have flight/control crews of 4-6+), likewise earlier aerial drones (or guided missiles for example) having human input prior to mission tasking......That is not to say they won't one day, but not anytime soon.... Quote
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