.

[Argus]

Well I cant speak to the opinions of imaginary people inside your head. But philosophically I see no untility at all making fassion an immigration litmus test. Rejecting claims on these grounds for either the women or their husbands is going to make the women WORSE of. Its not helping them.

Our immigration system is not designed to help foreigners. It's designed to help Canada. If YOU find it desperately important to help these women in their homelands I suggest you send money to the appropriate charity, presuming you have any.

And it does nothing useful for Canadians either.

Sure it does. It helps keep religious fundamentalists out.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Argus

[ToadBrother]

The real problem is the men who have re-interpreted the Koran over the past twenty years to make these stupid things seem like holy garments - and the people who have fallen for it. We can't do anything about the former, but we can keep the latter from immigrating to Canada. Don't know why you folks on the Left are so violently opposed to that idea...

Requiring face coverings be removed for a citizenship ceremony isn't going to keep these people out. At that point, they've already passed the required steps for citizenship. This anti-Niqab policy accomplishes none of what you want accomplished.

[Big Guy]

For women who are forced to wear a niqab, this decision has taken away her chance to not wear it in public. It only plays into the hands of the oppressor and does nothing to help her.

I agree that no woman should be forced to wear a niqab. But women in Western countries do it by choice. Why? Or do you believe that any woman wearing a niqab is being forced to do it?

[dialamah]

Please provide a cite for this protest of women against the niqab in fundamentalist countries. I doubt it happens in those batshit crazy countries... or if it does, it is short-lived with beatings and be-headings to follow.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/.premium-1.591640

There are also protests against veil bans

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/18/208661.html

The point being that they object to government legislating what they can or cannot wear.

And, the degree of discipline they may suffer is dependent on which country they are in. Nobody denies that these people come from repressive regimes and that the cost of disobedience can be high, but that doesn't make it ok for us to start our own repression to 'save' them.

Finally, merely as a result of this being in the news, two women in Canada have been assaulted for wearing a niqab - even though there is no law against it. This is no different than what happens to women in Egypt who are free to choose not to cover their face, but are physically attacked by those who think they should.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/muslim-convert-attacked-while-wearing-niqab-in-toronto/article26646425/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-police-muslim-woman-1.3253668

And one more link, in case knowledge might modify your viewpoint.

http://www.culturaldiplomacy.org/academy/content/pdf/participant-papers/2011-12-cdac/Running-Head-Modern-Middle-Eastern-Women-and-their-Rising-Impact-on-Society-Tiffany-Reed.pdf

Edited October 6, 2015 by dialamah

[ToadBrother]

I agree that no woman should be forced to wear a niqab. But women in Western countries do it by choice. Why? Or do you believe that any woman wearing a niqab is being forced to do it?

People wear lots of things I don't approve of. I had teenager daughters. Believe me, I know what it feels like.

But in a free society, I don't think the state has any business telling people what they can wear, beyond the bare minimum (haha) for public decency.

[Argus]

Requiring face coverings be removed for a citizenship ceremony isn't going to keep these people out. At that point, they've already passed the required steps for citizenship. This anti-Niqab policy accomplishes none of what you want accomplished.

I didn't say it did. I don't think such policies are the way to address the issue. The way to address the issue is better immigration controls. However, I also think that those already here should be discouraged from continuing with it.

[Argus]

I agree that no woman should be forced to wear a niqab. But women in Western countries do it by choice. Why?

It is the equivalent of a defiantly upraised middle finger directed to the rest of society. It is a statement that they are separate, that they reject this society and its morals and values. That is why so many people find it aggravating that we're letting such people become citizens here.

[ToadBrother]

I didn't say it did. I don't think such policies are the way to address the issue. The way to address the issue is better immigration controls.

But no one so far as I can tell is actually advocating that.

However, I also think that those already here should be discouraged from continuing with it.

Discouraged how?

[Argus]

But no one so far as I can tell is actually advocating that.

Everyone I know across all political stripes is advocating that. That's the difference between the public and private sphere. You can't say, in the public sphere, what tons of people are saying in private.

Discouraged how?

There are a variety of ways. For one, I think no state entity should make any concessions to their religious beliefs. No bus passes or passports that don't show the face, and no using them without showing the face. No acceptance of identity without showing the face. No driving a car with one ( I almost hit a carload of these people earlier in the summer because they pulled right out in front of me, no doubt half blinded), no niqabs going through airport security.

[Black Dog]

The real problem is the men who have re-interpreted the Koran over the past twenty years to make these stupid things seem like holy garments - and the people who have fallen for it. We can't do anything about the former, but we can keep the latter from immigrating to Canada. Don't know why you folks on the Left are so violently opposed to that idea...

It's not just the Left. I don't see anything from today's government proposing to turn away people wearing niqabs.

[Black Dog]

It is the equivalent of a defiantly upraised middle finger directed to the rest of society. It is a statement that they are separate, that they reject this society and its morals and values. That is why so many people find it aggravating that we're letting such people become citizens here.

I've read a few things by women who wear the niqab (including Canadian-born women) and this sentiment has never come up but I guess you know what's in their hearts better than anyone else.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Black Dog

[ToadBrother]

There are a variety of ways. For one, I think no state entity should make any concessions to their religious beliefs. No bus passes or passports that don't show the face, and no using them without showing the face. No acceptance of identity without showing the face. No driving a car with one ( I almost hit a carload of these people earlier in the summer because they pulled right out in front of me, no doubt half blinded), no niqabs going through airport security.

And when many of these fail on a Charter challenge, I guess you can always be left complaining about the Constitution and activist judges.

We live in a free society. People, providing they abide by fairly unrestrictive behaviors, don't owe you a darned thing. You're free to your bigotry, you're not free to impose it on even one other person.

[dialamah]

And when many of these fail on a Charter challenge, I guess you can always be left complaining about the Constitution and activist judges.

They don't even have to fail on a Charter challenge because 3 out of the 4 things proposed are already covered by existing law; the one not covered is completely irrelevant to how the system is used.

[ReeferMadness]

It is the equivalent of a defiantly upraised middle finger directed to the rest of society. It is a statement that they are separate, that they reject this society and its morals and values. That is why so many people find it aggravating that we're letting such people become citizens here.

We can't have anyone dressing differently, then. Maybe Harper should be outlawing kilts. Lederhosen. Kippahs.

[ToadBrother]

We can't have anyone dressing differently, then. Maybe Harper should be outlawing kilts. Lederhosen. Kippahs.

I'm all for banning baggy pants! I find them profoundly un-Canadian, and I think we should make it a law that no one in baggy pants can get service at a government agency!

[PIK]

Everybody use to get along till that charter showed up and now everyone has been abusing it and we let it happen. I would bet P.E.T would be spinning in his grave seeing how this charter has been abused. But it seems to me that it is only white males journalist causing the problems, read anything from a Muslim female journalist and they are against it.

[ToadBrother]

Everybody use to get along till that charter showed up and now everyone has been abusing it and we let it happen. I would bet P.E.T would be spinning in his grave seeing how this charter has been abused. But it seems to me that it is only white males journalist causing the problems, read anything from a Muslim female journalist and they are against it.

Yes, freedom is such an awful thing. We need to get rid of that concept and force everyone to dress and behave uniformly!

[ReeferMadness]

Everybody use to get along till that charter showed up and now everyone has been abusing it and we let it happen. I would bet P.E.T would be spinning in his grave seeing how this charter has been abused. But it seems to me that it is only white males journalist causing the problems, read anything from a Muslim female journalist and they are against it.

Oh. You long for the good old days. When everyone was white and Christian.

[dialamah]

Oh. You long for the good old days. When everyone was white and Christian.

And the 'good' women stayed home, raised the kids, cooked and cleaned. Which probably explains why half of the Conservatives family support budget goes to the one-third of families who follow the script.

http://www.gensqueeze.ca/federal_platforms_families

[ToadBrother]

Oh. You long for the good old days. When everyone was white and Christian.

Or kept their head down if they weren't. Argus' byline could be "Freedom for everyone like me!"

[PIK]

I always wondered how well off are women when they decided to quit having kids and running the home, to work all the time and never have children.

[ToadBrother]

I always wondered how well off are women when they decided to quit having kids and running the home, to work all the time and never have children.

You want 'em barefoot and pregnant, eh?

[Black Dog]

Everybody use to get along till that charter showed up and now everyone has been abusing it and we let it happen. I would bet P.E.T would be spinning in his grave seeing how this charter has been abused. But it seems to me that it is only white males journalist causing the problems, read anything from a Muslim female journalist and they are against it.

Can you cite an example of the Charter being "abused" that is relevant to this topic?

[marcus]

The real problem is the men who have re-interpreted the Koran over the past twenty years to make these stupid things seem like holy garments - and the people who have fallen for it. We can't do anything about the former, but we can keep the latter from immigrating to Canada. Don't know why you folks on the Left are so violently opposed to that idea...

I know it's difficult for you, but it's important to let go of your tendency to generalize anything that is unfamiliar to you and create an image in your head that doesn't exist.

There is a very small percentage of Muslim women who wear these full coverings. They're mostly from Saudi and Pakistan.

[ToadBrother]

I know it's difficult for you, but it's important to let go of your tendency to generalize anything that is unfamiliar to you and create an image in your head that doesn't exist.

There is a very small percentage of Muslim women who wear these full coverings. They're mostly from Saudi and Pakistan.

The reality is, as Neil Macdonald at the CBC has observed, that the Niquab debate is really a proxy debate for Muslim immigration. While the Tories still have to keep up the pretense that it's all about face coverings, the reaction of Tory supporters on the ground show that they are decoding anti-Niquab quite eagerly as anti-Muslim.