Big Guy Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Ted Hsu, a Liberal member of Parliament has proposed a bill to bring back the long form census. There have been a number of complaints from many different sources that the information needed to make decisions is no longer available. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/ending-mandatory-long-form-census-has-hurt-Canada/article21486149/ I have done some work on the municipal level and many of the statistics on which we base support decisions have been based on that data. It is no longer available. I hope this issue does not fall to partisan infighting. Ted Hsu will not be running in the next election and hew will be missed. I thought that he was one of the better reps in parliament. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Topaz Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 I doubt you'll see the return of the long form census under this government. Quote
Shady Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 People need to step into the 21st century instead of trying to bring back old outdated government practices. How long before they propose to bring back the gun registry too? Quote
PIK Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Voted down, next. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Shady Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Voted down, next. Too funny, but expected. What a waste of government time. Quote
Big Guy Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Posted February 5, 2015 If it does not proceed then it is a loss for Canada. Now decisions are being made on speculation rather than data. This should never have been a partisan issue. I cannot believe that the same government which feels that the data collected is intrusive to individuals also supports little overview of CSIS - the most intrusive organization we have. I know of no federal, provincial or municipal government or private agencies that have supported the end of the mandatory long form census. Minority ideology should not be allowed to override common sense. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Moonbox Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Abolishing the long-form census was a stupid, plain and simple. The reasons for abolishing it were senseless and it saved the government negligible amounts of money and the average Canadian negligible amounts of time. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
PIK Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Sorry but the country did not or will not fall apart because of it. So much drama. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
TimG Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) Abolishing the long-form census was a stupid, plain and simple. The reasons for abolishing it were senseless and it saved the government negligible amounts of money and the average Canadian negligible amounts of time.This is an example of the partisan twaddle that makes a reasonable discussion impossible. Specially: the long form census was NOT abolished. The legal threats of punishment for people who did not fill it out were were removed. I personally cannot see why any statistician would put more weight on data that was gathered under threat than data that was volunteered. i.e. if I did not want to fill out a census form but was compelled to I would lie and my data would then be useless to the people collecting. If the opposition actually cared about the quality of data they would be educating the public about the importance of choosing to fill it out. But they would rather use it as red meat to rile up their base. Edited February 5, 2015 by TimG Quote
guyser Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 This is an example of the partisan twaddle that makes a reasonable discussion impossible.Lets look at who really is the twaddle here. "Think-tanks, economists, scientists and academics in Canada and around the world have dismissed the 2011 data as fatally flawed. It can’t be compared in a meaningful way with the 2006 data, because they were gathered using different methodologies. Vital research projects on issues like income, unemployment and poverty that require long-term data have been compromised. And Statistics Canada can’t provide an accurate picture of how Canadians are faring, relative to 2006, since the 2008 economic crash." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/ending-mandatory-long-form-census-has-hurt-canada/article21486149/ Specially: the long form census was NOT abolished.Too cute by half. The govt knew the data would be comprimised by ending the mandatory aspect...and they were right. They want to govern on idealogy , not facts. There is no question that is fact. I personally cannot see why any statistician would put more weight on data that was gathered under threat than data that was volunteered.Probably why you arent a statistician/economist/academic....and neithe am I , but rational thinking would come to the conclusion that data from all areas in long form would be better than piece meal as it is. SOme areas are excluded from any data sharing since no one in that area filled them out. i.e. if I did not want to fill out a census form but was compelled to I would lie and my data would then be useless to the people collecting.Most people in canada honestly filled them out, that you would be a liar is your problem but the data would still be useful since honesty would triumph that data you provide If the opposition actually cared about the quality of data they would be educating the public about the importance of choosing to fill it out. But they would rather use it as red meat to rile up their base.So much fail. Its now the opposition that needs to educate the public, not the sitting govt? Maybe you meant this...."If the government actually cared about the quality of data they would be educating the public about the importance of choosing to fill it out. But they would rather just be ignorant on whats really going on and to govern with their ignorance in order to rile up their base. Quote
Big Guy Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Posted February 5, 2015 This should not be a partisan issue. Statistics are important and the accuracy of these statistics is vital. How often during the discussions of different issues here does the question "Cite?" come up. We then do searches to find data bases where statistics are available to either support our positions or to questions other posters assertions. We validate the need for accurate stats every time we post. I believe that the mandatory completion of census forms was a very important data gathering tool. I have no doubt that it will be reinstated under future governments. Unfortunately, because we have lost one set it will take many years until trends can again be identified and we are able to act on them to the betterment of Canadians. Making those changes was a bad move and the sooner we admit it and do something to fix it the better off we will be. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) ...How often during the discussions of different issues here does the question "Cite?" come up. We then do searches to find data bases where statistics are available to either support our positions or to questions other posters assertions. We validate the need for accurate stats every time we post. How often do they just use U.S. data anyway ? Because it exists and is easier to find..... Edited February 5, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 This issue is ridiculous. It's like advocating a land line phone versus cellular. Too many dinosaurs still pushing agendas. Quote
Moonbox Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 This is an example of the partisan twaddle that makes a reasonable discussion impossible. Specially: the long form census was NOT abolished. The legal threats of punishment for people who did not fill it out were were removed. The distinction is meaningless. A non-mandatory long-form census gets about as much attention from the average Canadian as a mailed-out flier. I personally cannot see why any statistician would put more weight on data that was gathered under threat than data that was volunteered. If you actually feel that way, then you know absolutely nothing about statistics. i.e. if I did not want to fill out a census form but was compelled to I would lie and my data would then be useless to the people collecting. Do you take the same approach with your tax returns? Come on man. I know you're smarter than that. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Big Guy Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Posted February 5, 2015 Shady - Apparently you feel that we do not need Canada wide accurate statistics. Why? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
guyser Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Shady - Apparently you feel that we do not need Canada wide accurate statistics. Why?Cuz.....Dinosaurs = Informed. Not sure what world that is from, but then again...... Quote
dre Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Shady - Apparently you feel that we do not need Canada wide accurate statistics. Why? He doesnt even know... just towing the party line. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
On Guard for Thee Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Shady - Apparently you feel that we do not need Canada wide accurate statistics. Why? Facts are confusing for some. Quote
TimG Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) The distinction is meaningless. A non-mandatory long-form census gets about as much attention from the average Canadian as a mailed-out flier.Why? A census worker can still follow up and emphasize the importance of filling it out. The only thing that is gone is the legal club. Where is the evidence that this legal club is necessary? How many people were actually charged under the old law? I believe the answer is zero which makes it hard to believe the "civic duty" argument would not be effective. If you actually feel that way, then you know absolutely nothing about statistics.Every private company that uses stats for market surveys has to make do with voluntary participation. If it is good enough to make business decisions then it should be good enough for policy decisions. As I said: it is non issue that is being exploited a red meat for partisans. Do you take the same approach with your tax returns? Come on man. I know you're smarter than that.Well. The argument made is it is not a huge imposition to make the census mandatory which means it can't really be compared to taxes which are a huge imposition on most people. More importantly, despite the law a lot of people do lie on taxes and there is a system set up to detect inconsistencies. With a census there is no way to double check the answers and if someone is not motivated by the public good argument and needs the threat of jail time to motivate them then they have zero incentive to be honest. The assumption that making something legally required necessarily leads to better data is simply wrong IMO. If you want better data you need to convince people that there is a civil benefit to filling it out correctly. Edited February 5, 2015 by TimG Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Its quite funny how the righties seem to be only too happy to allow the government to look over their shoulder and track all kinds of data because they are afraid of some sort of boogeymen, (bill C51) but they dont want to give the government information which will help for instance planning future health care etc. Long form census. Strange priorities. Quote
Big Guy Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Posted February 5, 2015 TimG - Almost every organization that deals with demographics disagrees with you. This is not a partisan issue. It is creating economic competitive problems for Canadians; http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/richard-florida/for-competitiveness-sake_b_6296522.html What data can you find and share that supports the current approach to the long form census? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
TimG Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) they dont want to give the government information which will help for instance planning future health care etc. Long form census.A falsehood which further illustrates how this is non-issue that only exists because partisans want an issue to whine about. The government still has the data. The only problem is people claim that not threatening people with jail results in data which is less reliable. This claim makes no sense given that people who are forced into compliance with threats will often seek to undermine the process in anyway that they can. If you want good data then then people have to motivated to fill out the forms because they understand the benefit. Edited February 5, 2015 by TimG Quote
TimG Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) This is not a partisan issue. It is creating economic competitive problems for Canadians;Sounds like they don't care if the data is fictional as long as there is data (this is a common problem with professional academics). Seems to me that knowing you don't have data is better than making decisions based on data that is probably not accurate because people have zero incentive to be truthful. What studies have been done to show that mandatory surveys are filled out truthfully? BTW: the problems with geographical resolution identified in the link could be addressed by sending out more long form surveys. Edited February 5, 2015 by TimG Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 A falsehood which further illustrates how this is non-issue that only exists because partisans want an issue to whine about. The government still has the data. The only problem is people claim that not threatening people with jail results in data which is less reliable. This claim makes no sense given that people who are forced into compliance with threats will often seek to undermine the process in anyway that they can. If you want good data then then people have to motivated to fill out the forms because they understand the benefit. Take a look at the stats of how many filled out the household survey as opposed to the long form. That should indicate to anyone how the quantity as well as the quality has suffered. Quote
TimG Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 That should indicate to anyone how the quantity as well as the quality has suffered.Where are the stats that show how many people filled out the long form truthfully when it was mandatory? If compliance is down you could be getting better data because people that volunteer are not likely to lie. Quote
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