Israel's war crimes in Gaza

[Rue]

I think people in power use religion to stir the emotional will of the people they govern to further their own ends.

The Muslim world is the worst by far in this regard and I would take up arms against anyone who wanted to force Shari law on me.

But as far as I am concern you can take all three middle eastern religions and throw them under the same bus.

As for 'your' religion causing terrorism all of the world, Israel doesn't have to, that's what it has America for.

I agree that politicians have and can use religion to control people, stir emotions, cause wars, etc. but unlike you I do not stop there and leave the analysis only offering a negative example of how religion is used by politicians or others. I think it has also inspired great things out of people and inspired some valuable humanitarian movements.

I agree with your second sentence but unlike the anti semites on this board with Jews, I do not challenge Muslims for having their own states-I contend they have that right, nor do I condemn any Muslim who believes in a Muslim state as the anti semites do Jews. If Palestinians want a Muslim state, I support it for the exact same reasons I support the right of we Jews to have a Jewish state or Irish an Irish state or Italians an Italian state, etc.

I have no problem with Muslim states if they treat their non Muslim citizens as equals the way the Anglican State of England does Jews. Eire actually treated Jews very well until WW2 and even mentions Judaism in its constitution and the flag of Dublin has a Star of David. Just because a country is Christian in state definition does not mean I dismiss it as anti semites do the Jewish state. I believe any state has the right to define national identity and that Jews have the same right as Muslims to define their national identity through a state, as Catholics do in the Vatican or England does with Anglicans. Zionism defines Jews as a nationality not a religious belief. Some Zionists mix the two but the majority do not mix the two and the state of Israel deliberately defines Christians and Muslims as having the right to its own religious courts and to be equal citizens precisely because Zionism does not create like Sharia law does, two classes of Israelis.

The false description that Zionism creates privileges for Jews is just that. No it created a place Jews could go to where the state organ would protect Jews and assure never again would that state do things harmful to Jews-it created an existential response, a refuge to prevent the extinction of Jews, a place to seek liberation from the tyrany of other states which in the case of many Christian and now today all Muslim states defines Jews as garbage.

I have no problem being a Jewish minority in a Christian state that defines me as an equal as most Christian states do today. I have zero problem with Christian traditions in our political institutions. These traditions respect mine and make be spiritually a better Jew by sharing new ideas as to being tolerant.

I support Christian traditions as an essential part of Canadian identity and what made it evolve to being able to offer Jews the kind of freedom my ancestors only dreamed of and to become

Israel was created out of an existential reaction, a necessary existential action to prevent extinction. In a tolerant world it would not have been needed and therein lies the irony. The very people who despise its existence and come on this board to piss on it exhibit the very hatred that led to the necessity of its creation.

My problem is not with Muslim nations or Muslim identity, its with anyone who tells me how I must define myself as a Jew.

Now in regards to your disrespect and intolerance of religions that is where we differ. Religions are not my problem-humans are who use those religions to justify hating people for having differences, are. You throw the religions, I believe they can be valuable guides to behaving civilly and peacefully just as they are used by some to be hateful and intolerant.

You go burn Bibles and Korans if you want. For me that is an exercise in intolerance and ignorance.

As for your final comment on the US engaging in Israel's terrorism, I have come to expect that kind of simplistic, partisan comment from you.

In your world the US and Israel are simply painted "bad" or "terrorist". Its black and white to you. It can't possibly be that Israel and the US have done positive things for the world-not in your world, you are quick to throw them out like religions.

Your Sir I would argue have been brought up in a culture that has conditioned you to think you dispose of things quickly when you think they have no use. Its a value system that rejects anything and everything you feel has no purpose to your needs.

Yah I get it. You were brought up to take that kind of disposable intolerance as a norm, as an automatic reflex behavioural reaction.

I get it.

In my world my people were called garbage and thrown out by others and disposed. Its why I am a Zionist. Never again will I or people like me be treated as disposable garbage in the way you do when discussing Israel, the US, religions. This is exactly what Zionism is-a movement that said no you don't throw us out, NEVER AGAIN.

I would not expect you to have empathy for what you think is garbage.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Rue

[Hoser360]

The false description that Zionism creates privileges for Jews is just that. No it created a place Jews could go to where the state organ would protect Jews and assure never again would that state do things harmful to Jews-it created an existential response, a refuge to prevent the extinction of Jews, a place to seek liberation from the tyrany of other states which in the case of many Christian and now today all Muslim states defines Jews as garbage.

Rue

“Israel was created out of an existential reaction, a necessary existential action to prevent extinction. In a tolerant world it would not have been needed and therein lies the irony. The very people who despise its existence and come on this board to piss on it exhibit the very hatred that led to the necessity of its creation.”

You lost me with ‘Israel was created…’. Are you defending the extinction of a race or a religion? If you are talking about a ‘race’ of people, are you not referring to a people of a specific genetic heritage? I ask because as a descendant of Northern European heritage I doubt I have any Semitic blood in my body and yet I can become a Jewish person and be granted the ‘right of return’ to Israel. Back to my point, what kind of extinction are you referring too? Is it the extinction of a race or an idea?

[Hoser360]

"Now in regards to your disrespect and intolerance of religions that is where we differ. Religions are not my problem-humans are who use those religions to justify hating people for having differences, are. You throw the religions, I believe they can be valuable guides to behaving civilly and peacefully just as they are used by some to be hateful and intolerant.

You go burn Bibles and Korans if you want. For me that is an exercise in intolerance and ignorance."

Actually, back in the summer of 1993 I found a paper book copy of the Koran on a park bench at 3 AM one night. I still have that book, sadly, I've only read a few pages of it unlike the hundreds of pages of the old testament. I believe these books have value but first you have to recognize that they were all written by men. Much wisdom can be gleaned from these writings.

If you take away a persons sight or hearing they will see and hear things that are not there. (not to get off topic), but, in light of the fact that we can not explain how we exist, these religious explanations are a convenient ways to explain it and justify one people against another.

My point will remain, that I do not support actions by anyone which results in the death of people. There is another way.

[Scott Mayers]

From Rue responding to Hoser360:

I agree that politicians have and can use religion to control people, stir emotions, cause wars, etc. but unlike you I do not stop there and leave the analysis only offering a negative example of how religion is used by politicians or others. I think it has also inspired great things out of people and inspired some valuable humanitarian movements.

Religion IS the norm of excuse to assert one's justification for acts that are either arbitrary to nature or relative morals. But you are wrong that religion to the State of Israel has nothing or trivial relationship to its founding. You have zero justification to reference what a "Jew" or "Jewish Nation" is if you are not asserting something that connects those who call themselves such. I already mentioned too, if you think religion has no significance, than you have to ask what then 'qualifies' one as being Jewish if it is not about physical ancestry as the remaining option. That is, you must logically imply a racial component as a significant qualifier.

But note this quote of the original Zionist pioneer:

I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one, notwithstanding that it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, which can only be solved by making it a political world-question to be discussed and settled by the civilised nations of the world in council.

We are a people -- one people.

Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London: H. Pordes, 1967 (father of modern Zionism, an international movement for advancing the state of Israel)

I agree with your second sentence but unlike the anti semites on this board with Jews, I do not challenge Muslims for having their own states-I contend they have that right, nor do I condemn any Muslim who believes in a Muslim state as the anti semites do Jews. If Palestinians want a Muslim state, I support it for the exact same reasons I support the right of we Jews to have a Jewish state or Irish an Irish state or Italians an Italian state, etc.

I think you need to very precisely define, "Anti-Semitism". If this is interpreted by you to mean some 'derogatory selective hatred against Jewish peoples', I think you need to address your own or the Zionist beliefs of similar belief in reverse.

I have no problem with Muslim states if they treat their non Muslim citizens as equals the way the Anglican State of England does Jews. Eire actually treated Jews very well until WW2 and even mentions Judaism in its constitution and the flag of Dublin has a Star of David. Just because a country is Christian in state definition does not mean I dismiss it as anti semites do the Jewish state. I believe any state has the right to define national identity and that Jews have the same right as Muslims to define their national identity through a state, as Catholics do in the Vatican or England does with Anglicans. Zionism defines Jews as a nationality not a religious belief. Some Zionists mix the two but the majority do not mix the two and the state of Israel deliberately defines Christians and Muslims as having the right to its own religious courts and to be equal citizens precisely because Zionism does not create like Sharia law does, two classes of Israelis.

You ignore that any Jewish claims to Palestine were derived from their presence there 2000 years ago. But to establish the present contemporary state required dismissing the same 'inherent' rights you actually assert of the Palestinians the Jews replaced. You can't just assert the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go 'elsewhere' as if they were so sincerely foreign. They have more claims to the region than the Jew from such a lapse in time in their Diaspora. Israel just created a new Diaspora of the Palestinians.

It should also be noted that even the Jews in the first thousand years B.C.E., they evolved from the Egyptians Assyrian rule there. Palestine was NOT the 'promised' land and why Abram went to Egypt. The story was double told and likely hides the significant relations to Ahkenaten, Tutmoses, and Ramses prior to its final downfall. Palestine was merely an out-post of the Egyptian reign to which the later 'Jew' redefined themselves from in Palestine. But even according faith in the present understanding through scriptures, etc, the Jews even then conquered those supposedly there with severe violent extremes (="terrorism"). So who's to say those there were not the ancestors of the present Palestinians with more justice. The Jews only had a temporary rule there.

Either way, there is NO justice to hypocritically assert a right to lands as if the Palestinians were somehow themselves "more foreign"!!

The false description that Zionism creates privileges for Jews is just that. No it created a place Jews could go to where the state organ would protect Jews and assure never again would that state do things harmful to Jews-it created an existential response, a refuge to prevent the extinction of Jews, a place to seek liberation from the tyrany of other states which in the case of many Christian and now today all Muslim states defines Jews as garbage.

Yes. Zionism IS Nationalism. AND foremost, since it accepts the innate "Social" function to be reserved for those of that heritage with utmost exclusion, they are perfectly defined as "National Socialists" for those of Jewish decent. Just translate that term to German and what have you got?

Israel was created out of an existential reaction, a necessary existential action to prevent extinction. In a tolerant world it would not have been needed and therein lies the irony. The very people who despise its existence and come on this board to piss on it exhibit the very hatred that led to the necessity of its creation.

This is NOT unique to Jews as all cults/religions define themselves through past intolerances which created their existence. Initially they had non-religious associations, to which you seem to already appear to agree, and then excuse themselves as 'just' to which evolves to become a religion and later 'ethnicity' through time.

There is NOTHING unique to Jews requiring protection/conservation; progress NECESSARILY evolves and it is only to those demanding to DICTATE to their offspring that they require passing on the old ways which you think is more important. But it insults the right of people to choose their preferred lifestyles and beliefs. Nationalism fosters more Nationalism and increasing division, hatred, war, etc. And it imposes its arrogance on those who see ourselves as all equal Earthlings by deeming our own individuality as Anti-YOU. We then DO become those you eventually accuse us of just as the past groups originated from other similar discriminatory accusations until they posit some NEW cult and ethnicity of the same type in never ending cycles.

My problem is not with Muslim nations or Muslim identity, its with anyone who tells me how I must define myself as a Jew.

You 'make your bed' by defining yourself a type of distinct species apart from other humans. And you add further insult by EXCLUDING others based on your beliefs. If you choose to define yourself belonging to some 'group', you agree to associate to the definition of that group and can't pick and choose which emotional stereotypes OTHERS MUST think of you. That is, you can't DEMAND others how to perceive you with the stereotypes you approve of but denounce the negative ones as well. You have to accept the good with the bad.

[Big Guy]

The Israeli government moves like a cancer absorbing but yet another part of Palestine;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/israel-closing-palestinian-village-galilee-160228090129105.html

When will the West wake up to this atrocity?

[Argus]

You ignore that any Jewish claims to Palestine were derived from their presence there 2000 years ago. But to establish the present contemporary state required dismissing the same 'inherent' rights you actually assert of the Palestinians the Jews replaced.

There seems far too many Arab Muslims living in present day Israel for you to presumptuously state they were 'replaced' by Jews.

I wonder why people like you never seem to focus on the odd fact that even in a Jewish state these Arab Muslims enjoy more rights than in any Muslim state on Earth EXCEPT for the right to treat other religions as beneath their contempt. They certainly lead better lives with more freedom than they would enjoy in any Arab state, though I'll grant you in the wealthy oil sheikdoms they'd have more money. But if you compare the lives of Israeli Arabs over the past thirty years with Arabs in the surrounding states no honest person can fail to note the Israeli Arabs have things pretty good.

You can't just assert the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go 'elsewhere' as if they were so sincerely foreign. They have more claims to the region than the Jew from such a lapse in time in their Diaspora. Israel just created a new Diaspora of the Palestinians.

Yet the Israelis haven't driven them out and haven't destroyed them. And your claim they enjoy more of a 'claim' than the Jews seeks to impose a penalty on those whose ancestors came from elsewhere. Do you similarly assert that Canadians whose parents immigrated to Canada have less claim to be residents here than those whose great grandparents immigrated here?

Do you deny that the present day inhabitants of Israel were born there?

There is NOTHING unique to Jews requiring protection/conservation

Really? This notwithstanding the hundreds of millions of people around the world with a violent hatred of Jews, especially in the Muslim world?

But it insults the right of people to choose their preferred lifestyles and beliefs.

Good thing Israel is a full democracy, then, where people are free to choose their preferred lifestyles and beliefs. Why, they even have gay bars and gay pride parades.

There is, of course, no such ability among those living in the Muslim world. Yet that lack of freedom seems to not trouble you whatever.

You 'make your bed' by defining yourself a type of distinct species apart from other humans.

You mean like the Muslim world does? Its holy books, its national laws, its culture are all rife with categorizing those who are non-Muslims as "infidels' and "unbelievers" who are all much less moral than Muslims. There are 8 million people in Israel and 1.6 BILLION Muslims worldwide, yet your frantic and determined condemnation is reserved exclusively for the Jews - for some mysterious reason.

[Argus]

The Israeli government moves like a cancer absorbing but yet another part of Palestine;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/israel-closing-palestinian-village-galilee-160228090129105.html

When will the West wake up to this atrocity?

If 150 people being told to move from a village constitutes an 'atrocity' one wonders what degree of verbiage the author would use to describe a village of a thousand souls being slaughtered, many tortured to death, the young girls raped and sold as sex slaves.

One needs to wonder, since the author has never felt himself outraged enough by these sorts of actions, which of course, are perpetrated by Muslims and not Jews, to comment on such things.

[kactus]

Kactus in response to you responses to Argus, I would like to debate one thing you said.

You claim since the thread is about Israel discussion should not be made in comparison to what other countries do.

This notion you have that you can hold Israel to a standard no other country will be held by is not credible precisely because its discriminatory.

Its a notion that necessarily holds that one can criticize Israel in isolation with no consideration to the cause and effect of its behavior and how it may be caused by countries or terrorists or people you deliberately choose to ignore.

Buy ignoring this cause and effect necessarily your analysis is rendered arbitrary, partisan, bias and simply subjective opinion that only will criticize on side of a conflict ignoring the causal link of behavior between the conflicted parties.

It is illogical to ignore the cause and effect and connection between conflicted parties if one wants to resolve that conflict. What you want is to simply morally judge one side and ignore the other's actions.

Israel does not simply wake up each morning and for no reason hate Palestinians and commit war crimes. There is cause and effect to what the IDF has to do and because and when you state you are not willing to discuss the cause and effect of why the IDF has done what its done, your criticism is rendered defective and just another one sided attack on Israel blaming all its citizens for specific actions the IDF may have engaged in.

You are contending that you should be able to judge all of Israel for specific IDF actions without looking at the causes of those specific actions. That is bigoted, illogical and simply incites hatred for one side of the conflict. It doesn't contribute to a peaceful solution, it simply sides with one side of the conflict.

I would argue when you engage in this isolated, one sided moral judgment of Israel for specific conduct of its IDF in specific cases, you vilify and demonize all Israelis for the actions of the IDF in those specific instances.

I contend your refusal to look at cause and effect behind these actions ignores what the Arab League and Muslim terrorists have done to co contribute to the conflict equation and whose actions have fueled the conflict, trigged the IDF responses and have harmed both Israelis and Palestinians.

That agenda to come on this forum and only blame Israel and ignore the other side of the equation is played out every day on this and other threads by the same anti Israelis on this board. It then attracts anti semites who can't resist using the word Israel or Zionism to then expand the topic not just to discuss whether the IDF acts excessively in specific cases, but to question the right of Jews to have a state and express ourselves as a nationality.

This thread has never raised one specific action of the IDF that was found to be a war crime, not one.

It has however used the pretense of Israel committing war crimes to discuss everything but that issue. It has instead been used to spread idiotic fabricated statements denying and trivializing the holocaust, equating Jews to Nazis ans making out and out false unsourced false representations as to to the etiology of the word Jew and jewellery and serve as a platform to , accuse Jews and Israelis of being liars, war criminals and exploiters of the holocaust.

Now when I disagree with you Kactus understand its not personal however if you do go the next step and start telling me what the origins of my name are or what my religious believes are or smeer me with negative false stereotypes, I of course would take it personally.

However you have never done that with me so I have never had to respond that way.

You stick to criticizing Israeli policies with me and have not insulted or become personal with me for being a Jew.

So unlike the others who have hijacked this thread, if you did actually want to discuss a specific instance of excessive IDF force, I would be glad to respond to any specific example of IDF excessive force you believe is a war crime and listen to your statement.

I myself have openly criticized the use of sulphur weapons by the IDF, Syria, Russia, Egypt, Turkey, the US Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, etc. I believe sulphur weapons to me are a crime because they burn through the skin of civilians-they are horrendous. I openly have stated I challenge the IDF as I do any armed forces including Canada for making and selling and using sulphur weapons.

You and I have already discussed whetherthe IDF used excessive force in the last conflict with Hamas. I stated any conventional army as well as the IDF forced to fight door to door against terrorists hiding in civilian apartments, homes, hospitals, schools, UN buildings, ambulances, propping themselves behind civilians will induce responses that will cause innocent civilians to get caught in the middle and yes the responses will appear or in fact be excessive-however to be able to know what one must know all the facts-the actual chain of events leading up to, during and after the use of force being questioned.

Of course you can sit in an arm chair in Canada far removed from the actual conflict and think you understand what it takes to go door to door fighting terrorists and believe its easy not to hurt civilians.

People do it daily and not just with the IDF but with police everywhere.

All I can say is I have been there and seen and experienced things you have not and it changes one's perspective on what others think is real. What I saw and experienced can't be understood by reading selective web sites with subjective opinions or wikepedia which is what is expressed on this forum.

No I am not you. I have a different perspective because I was the target of a conflict and hatred and I saw things that can happen in the heat of the moment to make good people make horrible mistakes.

Its easy, too easy to sit and pass moral judgments and then use those judgments to justify hating Israelis and Jews which is what some people are doing on this thread.

Please consider this. Have you seen any specific instance raised on this board concerning excessive force by the IDF? Of course not. The people you do see coming on this board are here to simply make general rhetorical statements that they don't think Jews should exist in a state, are evil, etc.

The thread and its contents are loud and clear.

I am baffled...

When does one become anti Israeli and when does one become anti semite???

On another note Rue, it doesn't matter to me if you are jewish or non jewish but reality is by giving an option about such matters as IDF excessive force in Gaza your opinions will of course become biased, partisan towards the Israeli stance on this issue.

I am sure if we had a palestinian on this forum then we will also get a different perspective. But probably then they will become subject to attack and abuse...

[Scott Mayers]

Scott Mayers, on 03 Mar 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

You ignore that any Jewish claims to Palestine were derived from their presence there 2000 years ago. But to establish the present contemporary state required dismissing the same 'inherent' rights you actually assert of the Palestinians the Jews replaced.

There seems far too many Arab Muslims living in present day Israel for you to presumptuously state they were 'replaced' by Jews.

I wonder why people like you never seem to focus on the odd fact that even in a Jewish state these Arab Muslims enjoy more rights than in any Muslim state on Earth EXCEPT for the right to treat other religions as beneath their contempt. They certainly lead better lives with more freedom than they would enjoy in any Arab state, though I'll grant you in the wealthy oil sheikdoms they'd have more money. But if you compare the lives of Israeli Arabs over the past thirty years with Arabs in the surrounding states no honest person can fail to note the Israeli Arabs have things pretty good.

I wonder why people like you seem to assume people's capacity to compete is as equally found on your own default of relative privilege. I have a 'freedom' to buy a Cadillac. But I don't have the freedom to, IN THE LEAST, inherit the privileged 'starter kit' that is NECESSARY to initially compete that you arrogantly think we ALL have. Your a spoiled brat in that you don't SEE what you yourself have INHERITED as a foundation required to play fair.

The Israeli-Zionists naturally outbid the potential of any Arab in desolation, isolation, and lack of inherent finances to competitively BEGIN to help themselves let alone to use such potential appreciation of what may or may not be deemed 'available' options.

I can guess, for instance, without knowing you personally, that it is most likely you had your first car given to you by one of your parents; ...that you had some 'allowance' to enjoy recreational luxury as a teen to learn of the pleasantries of life; ...that you worked while living at home in some part-time McJob in which you got to KEEP it all rather than to contribute to rent. While this is a 'stereotype' in some respect, it is of exactly the same form you just declared of the Palestinians reality with one major difference: they DO NOT HAVE EVEN HALF of the initial necessary inheritance that you likely have if you were of a mere Middle-class family.

Add to this, they are ghettoized forcibly. The effect of larger groups of similar economically deprived people makes even the strongest require overcoming 100 times more 'willpower' than you could nor would EVER realize based on your own socially supportive environment. In such ghettos, if one even had the luxury to get a McJob, besides requiring to have to then require paying their parents a contribution of rent and sustenance, their relative 'wealth' in such a job would be either expected to be shared among friends or you'd have it stolen from you. The gang mentality takes over and the extremes of these are precisely what creates a new breed of potential terrorists who when they act out, even contrary to the vast majority of their community, they get opposing stereotyped as a WHOLE to be at fault. And if pressured to maintain their own, how do you suppose such impoverished communities could even have a possible reliable means to organize collectively.

This is why I say the SACRIFICES must come from the Israelis, as they are even more absurdly more privileged with those seemingly 'trivial' advantages you assert the Palestinians should be more 'appreciative' of.

I heard this comment from a local conservative associate: He told me how those complaining on here in Canada who are on the bottom of the economic ladder as severely unappreciative of what Canada has to offer. He then goes on to back his belief of this by mentioning how when he was on his recent vacation in Mexico, all the poor people there were so 'happy and prosperous' for their condition, always smiling and treating him and his entourage with unusual respect in their MORE desperate conditions.

It didn't dawn on him that these apparently 'happy-to-be-so-fortunate-for-what-they-have' people were behaving no different than any servant at a McRestaurant who smiles at you. It reminds me of those who then think, "Oh, she's so in to me!" for just doing what is necessary. If these desperados DIDN'T smile, they wouldn't even have the 'fortune' of the pennies that those like yourself would toss at them for good-luck.

Yet the Israelis haven't driven them out and haven't destroyed them. And your claim they enjoy more of a 'claim' than the Jews seeks to impose a penalty on those whose ancestors came from elsewhere. Do you similarly assert that Canadians whose parents immigrated to Canada have less claim to be residents here than those whose great grandparents immigrated here?

Do you deny that the present day inhabitants of Israel were born there?

I agree that it isn't the fault of the children to 'own' the problems inherited down by their parent's debts. Yet, IF YOU ARE A BELIEVER IN INHERENT WEALTH, such as Israeli Nationalists would default to, it implies, just as others here in Canada, that you believe it alright for one to INHERIT factors that a benefit but exclude the accountability to the debt by distributing it upon the rest of society instead.

So yes, if you believe in such inherent privileges as a 'right', you HAVE TO ACCEPT the Debts of your parents as well. You no doubt think this absurd. I disagree with our own Constituted setup as it imposes debt to be distributed to the whole by the very people who inherited the virtues of their wealth independently. But if you were an Immigrant's grandchild who inherited direct benefits based on what they stole from others, while it isn't comfortable, if you accepted what your parents passed on favorably to you, you have to take on the debt too. This doesn't happen. Instead, the impoverished still take the load of that burden. It would be to the grandchild of the Immigrant who lacked the benefits of fortunate inheritance who WOULD be penalized for which I don't agree to.

Similarly, I don't think those children in Israel who were born into their condition BUT also don't inherit fortune, who should be held unaccountable. It is to the hypocrites who DO inherit their parents fortunes for their crimes BUT still keep the gold knowing of this, who I think require 'owning' the debt and burden of their parent's crime. This is where the 'sacrifice' must come from voluntarily.

Scott Mayers, on 03 Mar 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

There is NOTHING unique to Jews requiring protection/conservation

Really? This notwithstanding the hundreds of millions of people around the world with a violent hatred of Jews, especially in the Muslim world?

Consider what I said above to apply here too. The hatred is on all extremes (even central forms). But only the most obvious ones get noticed. And why? Duh,..??, because they are too desperate to realistically compete. They DO NOT have the fortunes nor respect you presume. The more fortunate side (economically) of any extreme has the capacity be more violent but just do it indirectly. Would you say that if you own property that surrounds the property you DON'T own makes you eligible to be considered non-violent should you prevent the owners trapped within your bordering control from moving, competing, or using their disadvantage to tax and gain from their necessary access to the rest of the world?

You corner even the most friendly family dog in a cage, then presume that it shouldn't bark if it were hungry because they have the same privilege you have to competitively seek food independently, who are the deluded here should the dog then bark louder and start biting? You arrogantly think that the Arabs are like these mad dogs with the same kind of ignorance as the owner in this scenario. You pretend that the Arabs actually have opportunity like the Israelis but they are just opting to squander it in an opposing greater 'greed'. Where's your head at?

Good thing Israel is a full democracy, then, where people are free to choose their preferred lifestyles and beliefs. Why, they even have gay bars and gay pride parades.

There is, of course, no such ability among those living in the Muslim world. Yet that lack of freedom seems to not trouble you whatever.

It is a selective democracy only. Your prerequisite to participate requires you BE Jewish or Israeli. Otherwise, you have to support those by default who ARE Jewish or Israeli. That's not 'democracy for even those 'non-Jews' REQUIRING to support unconditionally because this is conditionally REQUIRED!

I said: You 'make your bed' by defining yourself a type of distinct species apart from other humans.

You mean like the Muslim world does? Its holy books, its national laws, its culture are all rife with categorizing those who are non-Muslims as "infidels' and "unbelievers" who are all much less moral than Muslims. There are 8 million people in Israel and 1.6 BILLION Muslims worldwide, yet your frantic and determined condemnation is reserved exclusively for the Jews - for some mysterious reason.

I am strongly against ANY religion, no matter how apparently 'moderate', because of this. I could accept those who maintain a 'liberal' type of support for the philosophy of some religion without assuming people 'own' some heritage to it specifically. But even most who do think this secularly are confused at the difference. You could be a 'Christian' or a 'Jew' but BE atheistic and lack any intrinsic belief that you OWN some special right to inherit because of it. It is again hypocritical though, should you assert a non-religious belief but then still maintain a right to own the privileges of that religion's ethnic claims.

I already expanded on this point above by showing that to accept any heritage/inheritance, requires accepting the debts of them too. Otherwise, abandon it and stop supporting it.

[Scott Mayers]

The Israeli government moves like a cancer absorbing but yet another part of Palestine;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/israel-closing-palestinian-village-galilee-160228090129105.html

When will the West wake up to this atrocity?

Thanks for this link. I'll watch the "Building the Occupation" series right away. I have watched others that I might recommend but can't think of at the moment. These help to particularly paint the specific reality of the people that we 'hear' but cannot internally 'listen' to from our own biases.

Edit: I just noticed these series are writings, not videos. So change that 'watching' to 'reading' above.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Scott Mayers

[Hoser360]

Thanks for this link. I'll watch the "Building the Occupation" series right away. I have watched others that I might recommend but can't think of at the moment. These help to particularly paint the specific reality of the people that we 'hear' but cannot internally 'listen' to from our own biases.

Edit: I just noticed these series are writings, not videos. So change that 'watching' to 'reading' above.

Scott

Hear is a link to a presentation made by Anna Baltzer, regarding her experiences in the west bank. It is a view into her experiences in the West Bank. The women identifies her self as an American Jewish person, so it should stand the test and hopefully take this debate back into the realms of politics, power and regional domination and not religion; religion is a tool for those who know how to wheeled it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I

Edited March 3, 2016 by Hoser360

[Scott Mayers]

Scott

Hear is a link to a presentation made by Anna Baltzer, regarding her experiences in the west bank. It is a view into her experiences in the West Bank. The women identifies her self as an American Jewish person, so it should stand the test and hopefully take this debate back into the realms of politics, power and regional domination and not religion; religion is a tool for those who know how to wheeled it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I

Thank you, I'm watching it now and may comment after for that. I already understand that economics, not religion itself, is to blame for much of the problems INITIALLY. Religion is a product of often secular reality that was transformed through time to become religions. But these are still the technical tool to which the oppressors often use to BACK their ownership claims and/or behaviors elsewhere that lack any natural justification. Then the oppressed are often the source of new religions (or interpretations of old ones) that reactively define them in direct opposition. If you took the power of these out of the equation, the problems are then reduced to relatively arbitrary differences of perspective and they would likely agree to each others virtues and vices in kind. [This is why Hitler opted to enhance a folklore regardless of the truth. He recognized the power of the collectivity that occurs when backed by strict beliefs. It is easier to accept the radical behaviors one does against others if they feel they have a higher command and purpose.]

[Scott Mayers]

Scott

Hear is a link to a presentation made by Anna Baltzer, regarding her experiences in the west bank. It is a view into her experiences in the West Bank. The women identifies her self as an American Jewish person, so it should stand the test and hopefully take this debate back into the realms of politics, power and regional domination and not religion; religion is a tool for those who know how to wheeled it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I

So far I've been watching this for the last twenty minutes or so and I was convinced from the get-go that I'd sign on to anything she said without remotely any complaint. But then I realized I had the volume off and have to rewatch with the volume on to hear what she actually believes. I'm relieved so far though. I'd already committed to her view without caring if she were the devil herself! Ha ha.

Damn, she's hot!! Okay, seriously, I'll get back to watching.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel's Operation Protective Edge is praised as a strong counter-terrorism initiative:

On July 8, following relentless rocket fire that targeted Israeli civilians (according to the IDF, 450 rockets were fired at Israel since the beginning of 2014) and the discovery by Israel’s security forces of Hamas’ vast underground tunnel network leading out of Gaza, the IDF initiated Operation ‘Protective Edge’. According to the IDF, terrorists in Gaza held approximately 10,000 rockets prior to Operation ‘Protective Edge’, one-third of which were fired at Israel during the operation, and an additional one-third of which were destroyed by IDF forces.

...IDF forces neutralized 32 terror tunnels during this phase of the operation. The IDF excavation of the tunnels, which took place during phase two of Operation ‘Protective Edge’, resulted in the seizure of tons of Hamas supplies as well as the discovery of plans for future attacks, including a massive plot to attack southern Israel on the Jewish New Year in September 2014.

According to official IDF figures, IDF aerial, naval and ground forces struck 4,762 terror sites across the Gaza Strip throughout the operation, including:

• 1,678 rocket launching facilities.

• 977 command and control centers.

• 237 military administration facilities.

• 191 weapons storage and manufacturing facilities.

• 144 training and military compounds.

• 1,535 additional terror sites.

Throughout Operation ‘Protective Edge’, the IDF targeted terrorists in Gaza responsible for the planning and execution of attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians, including:

• At least 253 Hamas terrorists.

• At least 147 Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists.

• At least 65 terrorists from various smaller organizations.

• At least 603 terrorists of unknown affiliation.

In addition, 159 terrorist suspects were questioned by Israeli security forces.

Throughout the operation, 4,564 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel from the Gaza Strip. The Iron Dome intercepted 86% of them.

https://www.ict.org.il/Article/1262/Operation-Protective-Edge-A-Detailed-Summary-of-Events

Israel will continue to defend itself from terror attacks and other existential threats with overwhelming military superiority.

[Scott Mayers]

Hoser360,

Thanks for the link. I finished watching this and highly agree to Anna's position, approach, and am a little more hopeful because of it.

bush_cheney2004,

?? I'm guessing you're not even trying to pay attention here or are a little steadfast to your own ideas. Personally, why do you not question even the potential of relative perspective of what you consider as "terrorist" here? Watch Hoser360's link if you can and explain what you find contentious about that view with respect to what you said above.

Edit: Here's the link again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I

Edited March 4, 2016 by Scott Mayers

[DogOnPorch]

Israel will continue to defend itself from terror attacks and other existential threats with overwhelming military superiority.

Hamas had quite a few examples of of the Fajr-5 available in the last dust-up which pack a big punch. Big missile...25 feet long...90 kg or so warhead. Ben Gurion airport and the nuke facility were the general targets if I recall. Iranian made, of course. Assembled in Gaza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-5

The Grad is the standard Hamas unguided rocket which packs a 20 kg warhead. Quite nasty. The tiny Qassam + primitive ramp-rails still gets hauled out for the media when needed.

Impressive Grad barrage in Syria. Hamas is usually forced to bury its launch tubes rather than running them around on the BM-21 carrier-rig. So such barrages are uncommon except as a one-shot sort of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt7NrEAryFg

[bush_cheney2004]

bush_cheney2004,

?? I'm guessing you're not even trying to pay attention here or are a little steadfast to your own ideas. Personally, why do you not question even the potential of relative perspective of what you consider as "terrorist" here? Watch Hoser360's link if you can and explain what you find contentious about that view with respect to what you said above.

Ya think ? Please see the title of this thread. The IDF didn't go into Gaza just to make some YouTube videos.

Edited March 4, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

Ya think ? Please see the title of this thread. The IDF didn't go into Gaza just to make some YouTube videos.

You're simply trying to bypass the evolved arguments by distracting attention away from it. The OP accuses Israel of war crimes to which your addition above adds nothing more than repetitive declarations of the bias for the Israelis perspective. The data supplied by the accused is insufficient to defend them without externally observing ALL data without bias. Your tactic is also a distraction to overburden with useless data in hopes someone would either give up or attempt to challenge it by hoping one positively denies it.

Instead, I challenge you to the argument to demonstrate how or why the Palestinians are at fault and how the Israelis were not. What makes the Palestinians 'terrorists' and the Israelis 'defenders-only'? How is Israel NOT committing a 'crime'?

[bush_cheney2004]

You're simply trying to bypass the evolved arguments by distracting attention away from it.

Quite to the contrary, I have provided detailed IDF operational successes in Gaza against terrorists. The "evolved arguments" are just more of the same anti-Israeli rhetoric and ideology. Count the bombs, count the rockets, count the bodies...the rest is all bullcrap.

One man's "war crimes" are another man's Vimy Ridge.

The OP accuses Israel of war crimes to which your addition above adds nothing more than repetitive declarations of the bias for the Israelis perspective. The data supplied by the accused is insufficient to defend them without externally observing ALL data without bias. Your tactic is also a distraction to overburden with useless data in hopes someone would either give up or attempt to challenge it by hoping one positively denies it.

So you seek to silence and delegitimize the Israeli/IDF perspective, let alone try to counter the terrorist infrastructure, and munitions, and "war crimes" discovered by Operation Protective Edge. Got it....

Instead, I challenge you to the argument to demonstrate how or why the Palestinians are at fault and how the Israelis were not. What makes the Palestinians 'terrorists' and the Israelis 'defenders-only'? How is Israel NOT committing a 'crime'?

Israel may very well commit so called "war crimes" when faced with terrorism and existential threats, just like any other sovereign state. Such actions are plenty good enough and legal for other nations even when not faced with direct, cross border attacks (see posts above). Labeling such actions as "war crimes" only in the very narrow perspective and context of Conflict Dirt Farm belies the true ideological intention and purpose.

If the topic is Israel's war crimes, then discuss the crimes in detail, without reservation or deflection. Feel the burn.

[DogOnPorch]

Good idea. Let's look at one of these Israeli war crimes in detail. Let's take it apart and see exactly what happened to get it to the point Israel was causing said crime.

I'll leave it to the Palestinian supporters to pick the 'war crime'.

[DogOnPorch]

Ya think ? Please see the title of this thread. The IDF didn't go into Gaza just to make some YouTube videos.

Anna Baltzer likes to make videos...'tis her job...heh.

Edited March 4, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

I wonder why peop, lile like you seem to assume people's capacity to compete is as equally found on your own default of relative privilege. I have a 'freedom' to buy a Cadillac. But I don't have the freedom to, IN THE LEAST, inherit the privileged 'starter kit' that is NECESSARY to initially compete that you arrogantly think we ALL have. Your a spoiled brat in that you don't SEE what you yourself have INHERITED as a foundation required to play fair.

person

Sorry, but this, like most of what follows, is largely indecipherable gibberish, an odd mix of pseudo intellectual ideological babble and emotional ranting with no central theme and nothing related to even a recognition of reality.

The Israeli-Zionists naturally outbid the potential of any Arab in desolation, isolation, and lack of inherent finances

Meh. The fact remains Israeli Arabs have been better treated, with more human rights than the rest of the Arab world over the past thirty or forty years. Try to explain it away any way you want.

I can guess, for instance, without knowing you personally,

No, you can't. So don't make too much of a fool out of yourself trying.

I heard this comment from a local conservative associate: He told me how those complaining on here in Canada who are on the bottom of the economic ladder as severely unappreciative of what Canada has to offer. He then goes on to back his belief of this by mentioning how when he was on his recent vacation in Mexico, all the poor people there were so 'happy and prosperous' for their condition,

Poverty is a relative thing. Canadian poor have have more access to the necessities of life than many middle class people in the third world. This is again a simple fact. There's no point babbling and trying to explain it away.

I agree that it isn't the fault of the children to 'own' the problems inherited down by their parent's debts.

They didn't inherit debts, they inherited citizenship in the land they were born. You cannot say they are less worthy of being citizens in the land they were born to than anyone else.

<much gibberish deleted>

You corner even the most friendly family dog in a cage, then presume that it shouldn't bark if it were hungry because they have the same privilege you have to competitively seek food independently, who are the deluded here should the dog then bark louder and start biting? You arrogantly think that the Arabs are like these mad dogs with the same kind of ignorance as the owner in this scenario. You pretend that the Arabs actually have opportunity like the Israelis but they are just opting to squander it in an opposing greater 'greed'. Where's your head at?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Given it's in response to my statement about how so many in the world, including Muslims hate Jews I can only presume you're suggesting that hatred is the Jews' fault. This is an absurd suggestion given most of the Muslim world has never had any contact with a single Jew, and that their lives and livelihoods are unaffected by the existence of Israel.

It is a selective democracy only. Your prerequisite to participate requires you BE Jewish or Israeli.

All democracies require you to be a citizen of the state where you vote. Israeli Muslims and Christians vote just like Israeli Jews do.

[Scott Mayers]

Quite to the contrary, I have provided detailed IDF operational successes in Gaza against terrorists. The "evolved arguments" are just more of the same anti-Israeli rhetoric and ideology. Count the bombs, count the rockets, count the bodies...the rest is all bullcrap.

One man's "war crimes" are another man's Vimy Ridge.

I stated the appropriate concern of you and see you ARE doing just as I thought. I already caught you previously in your own slip-up for asserting yourself an American. And so I'll leave you on your own unless you've got actual reasons to justify Israel's presence in Palestine. They ARE the terrorists merely for being there. And any excuse to assert justification by the supports from external 'authorities' for which even the American's would NOT themselves EVER accept, requires a non-hypocritical argument from you or others for why you are purposely overlooking Israel's own actions against humanity.

[Scott Mayers]

Good idea. Let's look at one of these Israeli war crimes in detail. Let's take it apart and see exactly what happened to get it to the point Israel was causing said crime.

I'll leave it to the Palestinian supporters to pick the 'war crime'.

The person initiating this thread is absent and we've evolved this without. I didn't make any claim to the specifics introduced but am defending the LOGIC here. This requires stepping back to question the language of terms like "terrorism". This word is DICTATED as true of the role the Palestinians play when you or others feign Israel's own imposition to steal their lands as presumably non-terroristic. We only see the biased presentation from media which FAVORS the Israeli view to which the link to Anna is just one example of a counter argument and one of which you simply dismissed trivially.

I don't believe you would bother to give a fair trial without trying here.

[Scott Mayers]

Sorry, but this, like most of what follows, is largely indecipherable gibberish, an odd mix of pseudo intellectual ideological babble and emotional ranting with no central theme and nothing related to even a recognition of reality.

Meh. The fact remains Israeli Arabs have been better treated, with more human rights than the rest of the Arab world over the past thirty or forty years. Try to explain it away any way you want.

I can't bother wasting my breath on you. You're a spoiled privileged brat as is apparent from your utter ignorance of your own fortunes. I don't believe you'd last a day in the 'privileged' Palestinian camps.