Israel's war crimes in Gaza

[bush_cheney2004]

You know what is particularly disturbing about this subject, about discussing this subject as a person who questions the moral and ethical actions of today's Israel? Is that I do not feel I can do so in an open forum meaning using my personal information.

Your choice...we have been doing it for years without any difficulties. Sometimes the mods step in to enforce decorum and hate speech rules, but otherwise one is free to rail against Israel all they wish.

I think what really bugs some of the usual suspects is that even after Gaza 2014's alleged "war crimes", nothing happened to slap Israel's hands.

What is a peacemonger to do after that ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Since WW II, who has Canada attacked and killed 2000 people?

Drifting a bit, and there is nothing special about limiting things to after WW2. Canada has participated in many military interventions resulting in far more than 2000 deaths. The thing about Gaza is that Israel was actually attacked multiple times....not true for Canada.

[Hoser360]

What is a peacemonger to do after that ?

Hope, believe and not give up, that is what those who want peace in the world have to do. Maybe one day all the warmongers will eventually kill themselves out of the gene poo, however, naive that idea maybe.

What is good about this conversation is that you are demonstrating for those who don't understand, that people like you and many other people who defend Israel's war crimes are in fact people who really don't care about human rights if it doesn't serve your interest.

And where did Canada commit war crimes after Dresden, after WW II?

[Hoser360]

That's correct...all of this Gaza "war crimes" nonsense is alleged, without any formal proceedings by the ICC. They are more focused on only bringing charges against African nations. Funny how that works, huh ?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinians-press-international-criminal-court-to-charge-israel-with-war-crimes/2015/06/25/c0c85306-19d1-11e5-bed8-1093ee58dad0_story.html

Well given the land slide reprisals from the US and Israel it is like swimming up stream.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30744701

Edited February 22, 2016 by Hoser360

[bush_cheney2004]

Hope, believe and not give up, that is what those who want peace in the world have to do. Maybe one day all the warmongers will eventually kill themselves out of the gene poo, however, naive that idea maybe.

That's fine, but how about spreading it around more instead of always focusing on Israel / Gaza ? It really undermines the "cause" when such a biased approach is demonstrated again and again.

What is good about this conversation is that you are demonstrating for those who don't understand, that people like you and many other people who defend Israel's war crimes are in fact people who really don't care about human rights if it doesn't serve your interest.

People "like me" go about there daily lives without worrying so much about Israel's alleged war crimes when considered in the context of more than 50 years of wars and terror attacks against the only functioning democracy in the region. Shoot rockets...get bombed...it's not complicated.

And where did Canada commit war crimes after Dresden, after WW II?

Numerous places...Korea...Iraq...Somalia...Serbia...Afghanistan...Haiti...and Libya readily come to mind. Complicity in East Timor and other places.

All without ever being attacked, unlike Israel/Gaza.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well given the land slide reprisals from the US and Israel it is like swimming up stream.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30744701

If truly dedicated to the notion of "war crimes" prosecution for Gaza 2014, why not move forward ? What is stopping all the peacemongers ? Are they not truly committed to the cause ? Talk is cheap, I guess.

[Hoser360]

That's fine, but how about spreading it around more instead of always focusing on Israel / Gaza ? It really undermines the "cause" when such a biased approach is demonstrated again and again.

People "like me" go about there daily lives without worrying so much about Israel's alleged war crimes when considered in the context of more than 50 years of wars and terror attacks against the only functioning democracy in the region. Shoot rockets...get bombed...it's not complicated.

Numerous places...Korea...Iraq...Somalia...Serbia...Afghanistan...Haiti...and Libya readily come to mind. Complicity in East Timor and other places.

All without ever being attacked, unlike Israel/Gaza.

Without getting into the Canadian contribution to any of the above listed conflict (cause I do not remember that Canadian contribution to Iraq for an easy example), again your argument reminds me of the school yard bully who points his finger and said he did it why cant I? If you keep telling someone that bull s. smells good long enough they just might believe you. But, most importantly getting back to your argument, to my knowledge Canada is not occupying any of the countries you use an an example to justify the actions of Israel.

I doubt you will ever take the time to try and understand this issue from the other side, however, for those who are trying to understand it please watch this video and decide for your self. I post these links to help create a balance from the one side journalism we get here in North America.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r_DfwyWfsA

Edited February 22, 2016 by Hoser360

[Hoser360]

That's fine, but how about spreading it around more instead of always focusing on Israel / Gaza ? It really undermines the "cause" when such a biased approach is demonstrated again and again.

Because this forum is about the issue Israel and Gaza/ Take note that I try to not even talk about the West Bank but you seem bent on taking the subject off course and point fingers at everything and anything that can distract from that issue. The beauty is that the more you do this the more it will become clear to those learning about this subject for the first time, that the action of the IDF in Gaza is creating it's own enemies and becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Hoser360

[bush_cheney2004]

Because this forum is about the issue Israel and Gaza/ Take note that I try to not even talk about the West Bank but you seem bent on taking the subject off course and point fingers at everything and anything that can distract from that issue. The beauty is that the more you do this the more it will become clear to those learning about this subject for the first time, that the action of the IDF in Gaza is creating it's own enemies and becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Okay, but what is being done about the issue Israel/Gaza ? This is not the only thread about "Conflict Dirt Farm" for this forum...there have been many others. Perhaps it is a new topic for some, but not for many others.

Frankly, I am surprised that so little mileage and traction has been gained for the "war crimes" cause since 2014. I guess other world events have pushed Gaza to the side (e.g. ISIS), just as they should be when other priorities take precedence.

Gaza is stuck in a funk.

[bush_cheney2004]

Without getting into the Canadian contribution to any of the above listed conflict (cause I do not remember that Canadian contribution to Iraq for an easy example),

That's cool...many Canadians (and Americans) don't like to research and understand their own nation's complicity in such things. The winner gets to write history as they say. Pointing fingers at Israel is far easier....Israel doesn't hide behind NATO or the UN for actions in Gaza.

But, most importantly getting back to your argument, to my knowledge Canada is not occupying any of the countries you use an an example to justify the actions of Israel.

Lately, Canada just bombs them with American made strike aircraft, same as Israel in Gaza.

I doubt you will ever take the time to try and understand this issue from the other side, however, for those who are trying to understand it please watch this video and decide for your self. I post these links to help create a balance from the one side journalism we get here in North America.

I understand the issue just fine, just don't agree with your position. What do you want Israel to do when attacks are launched from Gaza ?

[Hoser360]

That's cool...many Canadians (and Americans) don't like to research and understand their own nation's complicity in such things. The winner gets to write history as they say. Pointing fingers at Israel is far easier....Israel doesn't hide behind NATO or the UN for actions in Gaza.

Lately, Canada just bombs them with American made strike aircraft, same as Israel in Gaza.

I understand the issue just fine, just don't agree with your position. What do you want Israel to do when attacks are launched from Gaza ?

Since I have not figured out to split your responses into individual boxes as quotes, I'll simply divided my responses accordingly.

1) well we still have not occupied another counter and killed almost two thousand people in a single conflict (most of which were civilians).

2) unfortunately Canada has been involved in booming targets in in Syria. It can also be argued that even some of the weapon systems used by the US are made here in Canada, but, this does not justify the IDF's booming of Gaza in 2014, again you are pointing fingers.

3) you understand the issue just fine? so how do you justify killing over a thousand innocent people, many of which were children? Was this just a lie and nothing more than anti Israeli propaganda, or, are all the children of Palestine "little snakes" (Ayelet Shaked, justice minister)?And what exactly did Gazians do to justify the action of the IDF in Gaza of the summer of 2014?

[bush_cheney2004]

Since I have not figured out to split your responses into individual boxes as quotes, I'll simply divided my responses accordingly.

1) well we still have not occupied another counter and killed almost two thousand people in a single conflict (most of which were civilians).

Really ? Ever heard of Afghanistan ?

2) unfortunately Canada has been involved in booming targets in in Syria. It can also be argued that even some of the weapon systems used by the US are made here in Canada, but, this does not justify the IDF's booming of Gaza in 2014, again you are pointing fingers.

It does not have to be "justified" any more than when Canada does it. It is just ordinary power projection in nation state interest. At least Israel is actually responding to existential threats. Why is Israel held to a different standard in Gaza ?

3) you understand the issue just fine? so how do you justify killing over a thousand innocent people, many of which were children? Was this just a lie and nothing more than anti Israeli propaganda, or, are all the children of Palestine "little snakes" (Ayelet Shaked, justice minister)?And what exactly did Gazians do to justify the action of the IDF in Gaza of the summer of 2014?

Killing adults is no more "justified" than killing children, but Canada/NATO has done so. What body count would be acceptable to your own sensibilities and moral compass ? Are the dead civilians in Gaza more important and deserving than other victims just because they were killed by the IDF instead of Canada's CF-18s or America's B-1 bombers ?

[Hoser360]

Really ? Ever heard of Afghanistan ?

It does not have to be "justified" any more than when Canada does it. It is just ordinary power projection in nation state interest. At least Israel is actually responding to existential threats. Why is Israel held to a different standard in Gaza ?

Killing adults is no more "justified" than killing children, but Canada/NATO has done so. What body count would be acceptable to your own sensibilities and moral compass ? Are the dead civilians in Gaza more important and deserving than other victims just because they were killed by the IDF instead of Canada's CF-18s or America's B-1 bombers ?

Wow, you are a lot of work! ( I''m starting to wonder if you are a genetic hybrid clone of Bush and Cheney with a dash of Rumsfeld sauteed in Powell cooked in Rice; and I mean that in the nicest Canadian way... sorry... ;-) )

There is no acceptable level of killing of anyone. The fact that you can not get away from pointing to other countries to justify the action of Israel further illustrates my point. The invasion and bombing of Afghanistan was a total waste of human life, (not to mention it lead to the end of good quality of hashish in this country; now they seem bent on making opium only).

Occupy Afghanistan? Well we did not set up a colony there and claim it as our own and start build security fences (sorry 25 foot concrete walls), and we did leave.

So, just to be clear, you are OK killing anyone who might be a threat to Israel, either now or in the future regardless of their actual participation as a threat?

[bush_cheney2004]

So, just to be clear, you are OK killing anyone who might be a threat to Israel, either now or in the future regardless of their actual participation as a threat?

I'm OK with any nation state doing what they have always done when faced with existential threats. Your own country (and mine) don't seem to have any difficulty doing such things even when not faced with such threats. Again, I ask why Israel is singled out for special treatment ?

Canadian Forces killed lots of folks in Afghanistan, including civilian non-combatants. Such is the nature of armed conflict.

[Hudson Jones]

Then why don't they expend as much energy on far more numerous "human rights" abuses around the world ?

Already explained to you, but I will explain again:

Our governments do not support those countries through political and financial means. That's the biggest difference.

Good for them....looks like they will have to wait a while longer, as the ruling government in Canada just put the kabash on any official BDS Israel policy. If Gazans again choose to threaten Israel in the future, Israel will respond with military force, and Canada won't do a damn thing about it.

The lobby groups still have power over the government both in the U.S. and in Canada. That's not a secret.

The governments will continue to do what their masters want them to do, until the voice of the people is loud enough that they will have no other choice but to respond to the people, à la Apartheid South Africa.

The voices are getting louder and stronger. The BDS movement is becoming a problem and that's why we're seeing these useless actions which will not stop the momentum and will only draw more attention to the BDS movement.

[bush_cheney2004]

Already explained to you, but I will explain again:

Our governments do not support those countries through political and financial means. That's the biggest difference.

And I will explain again...yes "our governments" do, in many ways.

The lobby groups still have power over the government both in the U.S. and in Canada. That's not a secret.

That's what lobby groups are supposed to do. Canada wants to influence U.S. decisions on oil pipelines...hence...lobby group.

The governments will continue to do what their masters want them to do, until the voice of the people is loud enough that they will have no other choice but to respond to the people, à la Apartheid South Africa.

Better scream louder then. Power to the people ! Canadians will dominate American foreign policy decisions for sure.

The voices are getting louder and stronger. The BDS movement is becoming a problem and that's why we're seeing these useless actions which will not stop the momentum and will only draw more attention to the BDS movement.

Sure...that's why your own Liberal government just officially kicked BDS in the ass.

[Rue]

One of the themes I keep hearing to justify the authority of Israel’s actions in Palestine today, is to point at other countries and their actions, be they internal action against their own people (such as North Korea) or towards other countries (like the US in Iraq). I think this a poor excuse to justify anything that would otherwise be considered immoral, a sin or otherwise illegal.

If we try to keep to a civilized discussion regarding the topic of this thread and what I hope is the purpose, it is to help educate people on the hypocrisy of the Israeli authority when it comes to the actions of the IDF, as witnessed during the bombing and invasion of Gaza in the summer of 2014 and the continued siege of Gaza. From my perspective, this should not be a discussion of theology or what other governments have done or due in other countries. ‘Finger pointing’ at others to justify ones action is like saying my father beat up my mother so why can’t I beat up my wife? Or, put a different way, my husband raped me so I caught off his penis; neither one of these ‘excuses’ are justification for the action in a modern civilized world if you accept the rule of law.

Getting back to the point of this forum (as I understand it) there are up to seven thousand reviews of this forum and some seven hundred posts, so, it is just possible that some people who have never made a comment, have in fact learned something they didn’t know, and the message, the purpose of this forum, is actually being realized.

With due respect your perspective is different then some of the rest of us who have been on the forum longer.

For some of us who have been on the forum longer, we see a distinct repeat pattern of a handful of posters wiith an open agenda to use that bigoted double standard us to attack with venom and hatred all Jews, Zionists, and Israelis in one blurred, sweeping negative generalization that incite hate and resentment against people identified as supporting or being a member of one of these aforementoned categories.

With due respect you have walked into an an-going anti semtiic diatribe against Israel and your referrring to civilized discussion or how you don't understand why using a double standard against Jews is not o.k, is stretching it.

Please read back the past posts to see that under the pretext of questioning Israel any insult against Jews is thrown in.

With due respect you have walked into an on-going diatribe against Israel for existing as a Jewish state. No more, no less.

The double standard you refer to is blatant discrimination - it is a blatant form of bigotry.

Imagine if you were black and someone said to you, well we discriminate against you because we expect more from you.

So spare me the attempt to rationalize the discriminatory double standard and this concept you have its civilized to tell a Jew what their place is and its not as an equal to any other people is a crock.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Rue

[Scott Mayers]

Like most English speakers, you don't understand what it actually means to be a Jew, or to be "anti-Jewish". Those who hate Jews hate them just as much for their racial/ethnic identify, as they do for their religious identity. Nazis didn't offer Jews the option of converting, they didn't care one iota whether a Jew followed Judaism or not, no they cared about their Jewish ethnic origin. One can easily be an atheist Jew, in fact atheist/agnostic Jews comprise one of the largest group of Jews worldwide, because Jewishness is very much an ethnic identity as well.

So what is wrong with being anti-Jewish? The same thing that is wrong with being anti-Black, or anti-Arab, or anti-Chinese... it is a form of racism, plain and simple.

People who hate Jews (are "anti-Jewish") don't give a damn about Judaism, it's not the religion of Judaism that they hate, but the people that they identify as Jews.

Bash Judaism all you want, it's just a religion like any other. You can point out how it's a dumb set of superstitions just like Christianity and Islam. But when you bash Jews, you are bashing them as people, for their identity as someone of Jewish descent, not for their religion. Jewishness and Judaism are two separate, though historically related, concepts. Being a Jew is to being a follower of Judaism as being an Arab is to being a follower of Islam, or as being European is to being a follower of Christianity. Related... but far from the same thing.

English, unfortunately, only has one word for Jew... whether talking about their religious or their ethnic identity. Arab and Muslim... White and Christian... but Jew and Jew. There's a word missing there. Many languages that evolved in nations with a larger historical Jewish presence (and in many cases a history of forced conversions of Jews to Christianity) have two words to make the distinction, and hence their speakers don't experience the same confusion about what being a Jew is as do English speakers.

Hope that clears things up for you.

The DIFFERENCE between what most understand of what is "Jewish" as opposed to "Christianity", is that there is a usual prerequisite for those who are of Jewish decent to BE self-segregating and specifically selective of their own BASED on GENETIC ANCESTORY! Religions like Christianity are evolved to be universally applicable and why it doesn't receive the same kind of bias. It is about the PRACTICE people witness indirectly, whether fair or not, to which the identity of Jews have as much 'earned' the bias of their PRIDE as a select PEOPLE to which others are bothered about.

Hitler's (or, more accurately, the German National Socialists even prior to his dominance), devised their philosophy on Nationalism primarily because they interpreted the reality of standing for an ideal without the emotional impact of culture/race/identity was futile. This was derived from those like Nietzsche, who though non-religious, argued that humans who ARE most religious and segregate themselves distinctly apart, with themes of hero-worship and pride of their 'own', will ALWAYS steal ANY prominence in realistic power by practice. That is, regardless of one's appeal to logic or 'fairness' of people as a whole, the ones who maintain dominance in power anywhere ARE those who command a strict religious OR cultural bias to favor their own nationality of their ancestry.

So, to be 'fair', the Nazis (and Hitler) actually ADMIRED the Jews and sought to embrace the very qualities they at least believed made them so prominent and powerful, regardless of their relatively small population by contrast. As such, their only intent to utterly destroy the "Eternal Jew" was because they believed their 'eternal' supremacy to survive. AND, this contrasted with what they wanted to embrace of them in an opposing way. They felt that the reason for the economic and social fallout of the Germans was due to the very opposite LACK of National unity that the Jews, even to this day, many embrace.

I disagree with Nationalism in any form, period. It is THIS factor alone which still divides people everywhere. To me, it isn't the "Jewish" nature but a human one. The Jews who embrace the Nationality to the extremes, of which is most prominent to those believing in Zionism and their arrogant belief that they are SUPREME by virtue of some God, is what makes Israel, NOT THE "JEWS" by ancestry, the problem here. Israel is ACTING as the very Nazis they pretend to oppose. The biggest difference is to HOW they are capable of doing it. Hitler tried the 'blunt' or direct approach in his means to formulate Nationalism; Israel's means is to appeal to tactics indirectly by using more subtle approaches to attempt to APPEAR innocent while being covertly AGGRESSIVE and hateful! It is NOT about Judaism nor those of Judaic roots that are naturally at fault....it is to those who EMBRACE themselves with the PRIDE to favor their own, and opposite to those OUTSIDE their segregated communities, to which provides the concern here.

It happens to other groups too who embrace their IDENTITY with similar strength because while it may seem normal to HIGHLY FAVOR some IN-GROUP, the very ACT of advocating and supporting for one's own interest with disrespect of the same for others, IS a form of hidden violence against the OUT-GROUP. If you favor to the extreme some particular child you have, it HAS to be at the expense of some other child you have that you neglect to pay attention to, ignore, or allow to starve to death. AND, when that neglected child in the extremely NON-favored position is isolated and starved by merely being left out of eating at the dinner table, they can only hold out for so long before they react in ways that APPEAR overtly most AGGRESSIVE or most HORRIFIC (a "Terrorist").

This is the same with other issues, like Feminism today, which acts as extreme ADVOCATES who FAVOR attention to Women-only justice AND often at the expense of Men as a whole class. Another, for instance, would be how the GAY community ADVOCATES for pride often stereotyping homosexual extremes that do NOT universally apply to the majority of people.

It is Nationalism which is the most prominent form of abuse and why those who embrace such extremes in the Middle-East are at fault. The Israelis (Zionists, in particular) are the sole fault of the opposing Muslim extremes that exist. And they are reacting with extreme because they are being easily neglected and literally being bullied by the mere power and wealth of the dominant Israeli Jews who dismiss them as mere ants to be stepped on expecting them not to complain!

The compliance of the U.S. is to the clear financial, political, military, and social supports granted to these Israelis by them in such strength in contrast to their own hypocritical declarations of compassion they constitute of their own, at the neglect of outsiders, in a similar way. If you have a neighborhood bully who might naturally be equal to you but have some other neighbor who supplants them with guns over your clubs, you too would be reasonably suspect of the U.S. for their compliance.

[Scott Mayers]

Rue or others interpreting hatred of one sort or another against the Jews,

Read my above comment as it applies to this issue and WHY I believe we have only an accelerated hatred that exists when or where ANYONE strongly supports a FAVOR for one's own with exclusion to others. If it helps, ask yourself how Elephants recently are reacting with such aggression: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0603_050603_elephants_2.html

I recommend we draw an analogy of us as humans in contrast to other animals to fairly interpret what is going on here. We, as humans, do not think we have 'earned' the terroristic attacks by these 'Elephant Nationalists'. But who is to blame? Surely, not all of us, and in fact, the majority, are NOT AGAINST Elephants. Yet our own survival contradicts the concern to have equal compassion to FAVOR Elephants. We don't think we should 'tolerate' their "terroristic" assaults on innocent 'women and children' of the towns these rogue elephants are lashing out against. But is this simply due to humanity as a whole? Do we not at least place the BLAME upon those who most directly have purpose to harm or neglect the Elephants, if we should even care?

[Hudson Jones]

And I will explain again...yes "our governments" do, in many ways.

Almost every conversation with you reaches this point, where you try to equate two situations that are very different.

No other country is receiving $4 billion a year (more to come in the future) in military assistance. No other country is receiving the type of political backing in the UN through its vetos. No country country has another country's politicians stumbling and tripping over each other to kiss the ass of its leader, while in another breath doing the total opposite to its own leader. No other country receives as much media self-censorship in its favour (Although, there seems to be a slight change recently).

That's what lobby groups are supposed to do. Canada wants to influence U.S. decisions on oil pipelines...hence...lobby group.

When lobbying gets to the point where it creates a situation where the country's own interest and the safety of its own people is sacrificed for a foreign country's own agenda, then I would say that's a problem. Once the average American understands this point, then there will be a political shift. Until then, we will continue to see actions taken by private groups like we're seeing the successful and growing BDS movement.

Better scream louder then. Power to the people ! Canadians will dominate American foreign policy decisions for sure.

This is not about what a Canadian thinks. You would be naive not to see the powerful worldwide movement that continues to get bigger.

Sure...that's why your own Liberal government just officially kicked BDS in the ass.

We all know that won't stop the BDS movement. It will most likely draw more attention to the BDS movement and make it even stronger. The fear that our governments have in being truthful about the injustices and the fear they have in criticizing Israel is sometimes comedic and I would have thought, a "straight shooter" such as yourself would be disgusted by the way some of these Western governments kiss a foreign country's ass out of the fear of their political careers.

[bush_cheney2004]

Almost every conversation with you reaches this point, where you try to equate two situations that are very different.

No other country is receiving $4 billion a year (more to come in the future) in military assistance.

Excellent example of blind, ignorant bias against Israel when contrary facts are readily available. Afghanistan has been receiving far more in U.S. military aid...THREE TIMES MORE.

http://time.com/43836/afghanistan-is-the-big-winner-in-u-s-foreign-aid/

[Argus]

It is estimated that almost 2000 people were killed by the IDF in Gaza in 2014.

It's interesting you use 2014. Why not 2015? Could it be because only 190 people died in the Jewish/Arab conflict in 2015 (most of them combatants) and that doesn't make it sound as 'serious' as you want?

After all, tens of thousands died in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan last year, and you don't give a damn about THEM. Way more people were killed by government forces in Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan and Egypt, but you don't care about them either.

[Argus]

Criticizing Israel is almost a crime and almost certainly taboo. This fact alone is a warning that something is wrong, very wrong.

Riiiight, which is why you hardly ever hear anyone doing so, especially on college campuses.

[Argus]

And what exactly did Gazians do to justify the action of the IDF in Gaza of the summer of 2014?

Elected a terrorist group as their government, a terrorist group which promises to destroy Israel, and which attacked Israelis in every way they could, including firing thousands of rockets and missiles across the border.

[Scott Mayers]

You guys missed the elephant I brought into the post?

...Or is everyone here equally anti-elephantist?