Israel's war crimes in Gaza

[DogOnPorch]

...and Hamas shoots its own people at a whim and drags them from behind motorbikes.

[Argus]

...and Hamas shoots its own people at a whim and drags them from behind motorbikes.

Israel has the only free press in the middle east, and the only democracy. It is the only country in the middle east with an independent court system. It is also the only country in the middle east without the death penalty. It is the only country in the middle east with protections for womens rights and gay rights.

[DogOnPorch]

Israel has the only free press in the middle east, and the only democracy. It is the only country in the middle east with an independent court system. It is also the only country in the middle east without the death penalty. It is the only country in the middle east with protections for womens rights and gay rights.

I recall the video of Hamas dealing with the opposition. Can't post it here, unfortunately. Way too violent. But it does involve the usual great heights and AK-47s.

No need for further elections if the other guy is dead...

[Rue]

Hoser you responded to me and said:

"Just to be clear, I have no issue with Jewish people..." then in the very next set of words stated... "The Jewish faith seems to have been hijacked by the Zionist.."

You made a sweeping statement about the Jewish faith.

Then you state, " What I do not respect is the fact that the Israeli government condones the very same behavior that you say has been inflicted on “your people”, which “your people” now inflict on the people of Palestine. "

You then switch the topic after your reference to all Jews accusing all Jews of being bad Zionists, and then equate us to Nazis.

Tiresome. Couching your smeers against all Jews interchanging the word Israel and equating us to Nazis speaks for itself and its what I challenge on this board.

You again evidence how pretexting anti semitic smeers with reference to Israel makes people like you feel you are disconnected from your anti semitic comments and that is what they are because they smeer all Jews.

You I would expect more than Mayer. Please, when you want to criticize Israeli state policies, can you take the time to understand it does not giveyou the right to accuse all Jews, all people of the Jewish faith of being hijacked by anything. Stop smeering all Jews and all Israelis because of what you think are the actions of the Israeli government.

If people come on this forum and call all Muslims evil or terrorists you'd be the first to engage in your words like racist, but when you do it with Jews why is it exempt? You claim you were brought up in a white racist environment, yep I can gather that because old habits die hard and when it comes to Jews you revert to the negative generalizations of all of us.

Look I get you think people like me shoud not challenge you. I have to. You smeer all Jews. Its not right.

If you actually want to raise a specific action or policy you think the IDF or the government engaged in, stipulate it. Can you? Can you give a specific incident instead of speaking in anti semitic generalizations that blame all Jews for the perceive unfair treatments of Paletsinians by the Israeli government?

Can you, No one else seems to be able to, how about you? Can you try?

Did it ever dawn on you that Israelis including Israeli Jews and Zionists just like me don't want any harm coming to Palestinians any more than we do to Jews all across the world and in Israel? hmmm?

Could you perceive as a Jew as something other than a Nazi because we created a state and want to live in a state? Is it possible for you to see us as equals to Palestinians and see the conflict as one between two equals and not one evil and one good?

You think if you demonize Israel and Jews as Nazis that helps resolve the conflict? All you do is enable Jew haters who hate Muslims just as much to pose on this forum.

There's an irony Hoser because when you use the language you do it incites skinheads, racists to come to this board and echo what you say? You really want to join in the piss on Jews melody? You think throwing in the word Israel changed your smeer against all people of the Jewish faith.

You think if you come back now and qualify it and say you only meant to smeer Israeli and Zionist Jews it makes it less hateful, less bigoted?

No it doesn't.

How about you ask me instead of smeering me as a Nazi what I think of the suffering of Palestinians? Have you ever spoken to a Jew or an Israeli? You clearly haven't been to Israel or the West bank. Well? What makes you demonize Jews thinking we want to hurt Palestinians?

You ever try just once understand that in any conflict neither side is right or wrong but a bit of both?

What does it take your generation to stop being manipulated and coming on this board and reducing complex human suffering with simplistic name calling?

[Rue]

I don't doubt your own EXTREME HATRED of ME here. Am I not also deserving of my Independent culture? You have no respect for anyone but your own in-group as admitted in supporting your Nationalism. Thus you are suspect to anything you say since you favor your own above all others with bias because it is impossible to assert a whole group of people as defaulted to being innocent as if you share one consciousness. You no doubt think you do. And if so, then you are DEFINING yourself in opposition to ALL others. While you may negotiate tradeoffs with others who also believe in your discriminatory attitude, you and not me are a HATER and most suspect of being the 'terrorist' logically.

But its obvious you can't even speak of me honestly; Its understanding, considering your hatred of me. So there's nothing left to say but that I DO NOT SUPPORT the State of Israel and by those such as yourself acting as you do here prove, you don't care to even try to use reasoning nor fairness in your approach. To me you ARE a criminal of those who believe that people are intrinsically equal and deserving of equal treatment individually.

I VERY CLEARLY defined my rejection of the Zionism as it is a belief in Jewish Supremacy. How does this make ALL JEWS responsible? I don't OWN the claims of some White Supremacist for their own belief that ALL WHITE people are somehow a group either. It is you who both creates the stereotypes (positive and negative), just as those white supremacists would behave to implicate me as being of their clan. And you are acting just as a White Supremacist here would to anyone non-white who attempts to defeat their own irrational belief in some 'right' to impose a 'cultural' heritage OWNED BY ALL WHITES collectively. They too would accuse the skeptic of being the racist or hater as they'd actually accept and embrace the same kind of Nationalism you hold. The only difference is that you are on their opposing extreme competing agreeably to take the world stage as a Cult.

Now you are out-and-out lying! So unless you retract this, I have nothing more to say to you. I don't like you as you earned your clear disrespect of me and only attempt to contribute to BEING what you WANT others to stereotype ALL JEWS AS. So you're even a disgrace to those Jews who you are trying to foster a purposeful hatred against them as a whole. YOU ARE NOT THE SPOKESMEN FOR ANYONE BUT YOURSELF! Stop speaking for "Jews" as if you are some Race and distinct being that 'naturally' owns some part of Earth as a collective and favorite of Nature itself.

In post 830 you stated the above.

In regards to these words;

"I don't doubt your own EXTREME HATRED of ME."

"But its obvious you can't even speak of me honestly; Its understanding, considering your hatred of me."

"I don't like you.."

The above words again I would argue manifest your narcissism, i.e., need to make every post about your feelings.

You stated:

"You have no respect for anyone but your own in-group as admitted in supporting your Nationalism."

Your comment is illogical. The fact that I believe Jews have the right to define ourselves as a collective soul (spiritually) and through a national identity(state) does not mean I don't respect anyone else. No where in my responses to you or anyone did I state or suggest only Jews have the right to a national identity or a collective soul and neither does Zionism or Judaism when defining the Jewish identity.

You stated:

""Thus (because I believe Jews have the right to identify themselves as a collective soul or through a state) you are suspect to anything you say since you favor your own above all others with bias because it is impossible to assert a whole group of people as defaulted to being innocent as if you share one consciousness."

Your comment again is illogical and nonsensical and fractured in syntax, particularly the words, "since you favor your own above all others with bias because it is impossible to assert a whole group of people as defaulted to being innocent as if you share one consciousness."

The fact that Jews may believe they should pray to God collectively and in that sense share a collective soul when praying, does not mean they don't also believe they have individual consciousness. In fact nothing in Judaism says or defines us spiritually as being just a collective consciousness. As well the fact Jews pray to God through a collective or identify as a collective does not mean its defined as a superior collective to others. Your assertion tis impossible to identify as part of a collective and also as an individual is illogical as well. As well your comment as t innocence is bizarre if not disjointed.

Furthermore, Jews do not define themselves as innocent. That could not be further from the truth. In fact each year at Yom Kippur we have a ceremony to apologize for our sins called Kol Nidre where we apologuze to God and say we will try again to be better. The very premises of being a Jew is that we are born imperfect and must continually work to be better and that only God is perfect, no human.

You stated:

" I VERY CLEARLY defined my rejection of the Zionism as it is a belief in Jewish Supremacy."

Actually you never have. You have never provided your basis for how you arrived at your definition. You do repeat again and again the above allegation but you won't prove it because of course you can't, its false.

You can not because no such documentation or proof for your definition exists-you made it up.

That to me again Mayer shows you can not distinguish your fabricated beliefs or stereotypes, from actual fact. No Mayer just because you repeat the above again and again doesn't establish it.

You stated:

I don't OWN the claims of some White Supremacist for their own belief that ALL WHITE people are somehow a group either."

I never said you did. What I have done is challenge YOUR words.

You also stated: "Am I not also deserving of my Independent culture?"

Well that's interesting because in past posts you've stated you reject all forms of nationalism, i.e., no one is deserving of nationalism which by definition is the expression of culture through a collective. .You've also made it clear you do not think Jews are deserving of the right to have a collective culture. You seem to be suggesting people can only express their cultural "independently" which I assume you mean "individually" although its always a guess with your fractured syntax.

So you set up a double standard whereby you get to be deserving of how you want to express culture but anyone who wants to express culture their way, I.e., through a collective is not. That double standard is what I challenge. I also think it shows narcissism by redirecting the discussion back to what you deserve and what others don't.

This thread is not about you Mayer as much as you demand it to be. It's not about your sense of entitlement expressed through the words " Am I not also deserving...". You used the word also. Its not also, its only about you and only about what you deserve. You already made it clear you don't care about anyone else's roots. You've dismissed others. It's all about you.

This is not about what you deserve or what you feel or what you want. This is about me challenging your words for erroneously stereytyping Jews with false motives and beliefs, misrepresenting Zionism and Judaism and smeering Jews.

If you think you are deserving of coming on this forum to smeer me, smeer Jews, tell us what we think, tell us how we think, tell us what we are allowed to think, then I will change you as being a bigot.

Mayer you engaged in these words:

"You have no respect for anyone

you no doubt think you do.

you are suspect to anything you say

you are DEFINING yourself in opposition to ALL others

you may negotiate tradeoffs with others who also believe in your discriminatory attitude

you and not me are a HATER and most suspect of being the 'terrorist' logically.

you can't even speak of me honestly

you don't care to even try to use reasoning nor fairness in your approach.

you are a criminal

you are on their opposing extreme competing agreeably to take the world stage as a Cult.

you who both creates the stereotypes (positive and negative),who both creates the stereotypes (positive and negative),...

you are acting just as a White Supremacist

you ... only attempt to contribute to BEING what you WANT others to stereotype ALL JEWS AS..."

13 times Mayer you called me names. 13 times you accused me of things but interesting provided no quotes from me to show the basis for the above, nor did you explain the basis for how you concluded the above allegations.

The difference between us is I quote each and every set of words from you I disagree with, explain why I disagree with them and provide sources for my opinions if necessary, you don't.

Anyone can come on this board as you have and make countless allegations as you continue to do. That's the easy part. The next part, backing up what you say with documentation you don't seem to be able to do and that's why I have challenged you.

You are quick to issue slurs about me and Jews but you can't back them up

Finally you stated:

"YOU ARE NOT THE SPOKESMEN FOR ANYONE BUT YOURSELF! Stop speaking for "Jews" as if you are some Race and distinct being that 'naturally' owns some part of Earth as a collective and favorite of Nature itself."

Your choice of words is interesting because on each and every post you claim to know what Jews think and believe, what Judaism thinks and believes, what Zionism thinks and believes and therefore posing as a spokesman for all 3.

You've repeated over and over again numerous falsehoods about the Jewish religion , Jews and Zionism so I have challenged those statements and your attempt to presume to speak for me or any other Jew.

Doesn't mean I have claimed that my opinion is the only valid one. You are doing that. I am challenging you for doing that.

Just look at how many "youisms" lol you used against me in your last response. You just spew it out so don't be surprised I challenge your assumptions and stereotypes, particularly since you can't document them.

It is what you do. Label Jews, Zionists and me.

I don't claim to speak for all Jews. I do claim to correct you when you say things about what the Jewish religion says or believes or what Zionism says or believes. I don't like you claim to be an expert on Judaism or Zionism but I am a Jew and so when you make stereotypes about me and all Jews that are false I speak out.

I have never said all Jews think like me. I have never said all Jews are Zionists. What I have challenged is your repeat lie that Judaism and Zionism define Jews as a species, or unique, or superior. That is vile anti semitic falsehood.

What I have challenged is your falsely redefining Zionism to stand for the same things as Nazism when you are well aware it was created as a reaction to Zionism...a direct reaction to protect Jews from Nazism. When you do this its no different than blaming a rape victim for defending herself against a rapist. But do continue to call Jews Nazis.

What I have challenged is your intellectual dishonesty in refusing to provide a shred of evidence to back up your false statements about Judaism, Zionism and Israelis smeering us all.

What I have challenged was your ignorance of the etiology of the word "Jew", the meaning of the word "goy" and the misleading and false presentation that Nietzche's works were the source for Nazism.

You have as yet to counter what I rebuked with documentation. That inability to come back wit documentation to back up your allegations speaks loudly and Mayer I don't doubt you will now refuse to respond to me further.

I get it. If you can't make up the rules as you go along and control what I say and the content of the debate, you'll take your ball and go away.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Rue

[Argus]

On Al Jazeera, which some people like to cite here as if it has any kind of meaningful contribution other than as propaganda aimed at the ignorant and the weak-minded.

This is news without even the pretense of impartiality. After several days of following the Al-Jazeera coverage of Gaza, I've never seen a live interview with an Israeli, neither a politician nor a civilian. In the Al-Jazeera version, the Gaza conflict has only two participants: the Israeli army - an impersonal force represented as tanks and planes on the map - and the Palestinian civilians, often shown entering the hospital on makeshift stretchers. There are few Hamas rockets and no Israeli families. It's not hard to see why Al-Jazeera is accused of deliberately inflaming regional enmity and instability.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/18/the_violence_network/?page=full

[Hoser360]

On Al Jazeera, which some people like to cite here as if it has any kind of meaningful contribution other than as propaganda aimed at the ignorant and the weak-minded.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/18/the_violence_network/?page=full

Some of us are not week minded and seek a balanced report on international news. American news is so one sided and scripted even my pre teen son could see through the BS. I like a balanced approach, check the American news, the CBC, BBC, RT, PressTV, Al Jazeer, and just for kicks watch a state department briefing and the grilling they get from guys like Matt Lee (Associated Press) and then form an opinion.

[Argus]

Some of us are not week minded and seek a balanced report on international news. American news is so one sided and scripted even my pre teen son could see through the BS. I like a balanced approach, check the American news, the CBC, BBC, RT, PressTV, Al Jazeer, and just for kicks watch a state department briefing and the grilling they get from guys like Matt Lee (Associated Press) and then form an opinion.

And still, based on your posts here - the wrong opinion.

[Hoser360]

And still, based on your posts here - the wrong opinion.

And that's your opinion. However, as I have said, my mind is not made up, the jury is still out if you will. I remember back in the early 80's as a pre-teen watching/reading a lot of news, editorials and documentaries about this subject. My gut instinct back then was that there was something not quite right about the hole situation in Israel/Palestine. Back then I didn't have any idea what Judaism was or Islam, for all intent and purpose. I had a hard time understanding why the Jewish people had a right to take land in Palestine away from Palestinians? The Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust so why should they suffer for it? Jews, Christians and Muslims already lived there. If you are one to believe that Jewish people have a right to occupy the land and deny other people who are not Jewish from it because God said it was yours; well lets hope that is not your argument. History is fiction and one chooses to believe what they want from it. The only thing we can deal with is how be act in the present and prepare for the future. Some retrospective look at past events is important for wisdom and best to stick to your own memories of events, but, history it is a fickle bitch which is subjective and the further you go back, the more unreliable it is.

Seen a road map of Israeli highways and roads lately, or, perhaps the 'security fence' that keeps growing everywhere in the West Bank?

If history about this area has taught me anything, I'd bet that in 20 years ALL of the West Bank and Gaza will be completely occupied and 100% controlled by Zionist colonizers.

Am I wrong?

[DogOnPorch]

The Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust

Wrong.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19470915&id=lLAfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N9cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1802,5405767&hl=en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

Edited March 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

Some of us are not week minded and seek a balanced report on international news. American news is so one sided and scripted even my pre teen son could see through the BS. I like a balanced approach, check the American news, the CBC, BBC, RT, PressTV, Al Jazeer, and just for kicks watch a state department briefing and the grilling they get from guys like Matt Lee (Associated Press) and then form an opinion.

Lol do you read the Jerusalem Post as well?

[Rue]

Hoser there is no point denying the connection between the leaders and creators of the Palestinian national movement

and Nazism.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article.php/id/2543?id=2543

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

The fact is Hajj Amin al-Hussein who led the movement in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, worked closely with Hitler to exterminate Jews in Europe and incited massacres of Jews throughout the Middle East.

Mahmoud Abbas refers to al-Husseini as a “hero.”

Al-Husseini was responsible for organizing fedayeen (suicide groups) that
terrorized the Jews of Palestine in 1919 and organized the 1929 Western Wall Riots, which included riots in both
Hebron and Safed.

After getting help from Adolf Hitler , and Hassan al-Banna (founder of Muslim Brotherhood), he orchestrated the Arab riots of 1936-1939 that murdered 415 Jews in British Mandate Palestine.

He traveled to Nazi Germany in 1941, met with Hitler to gain assistance with his plan to annihilate the Jewish population of the Middle
East, played a very important role to puash Eichman to use cynide gas to kill more Jews more eficiently,

He lived as a guest of Hitler throughout WW2 in a home stolen from Jews, organized a commando unit and a military unit of Muslim Arabs an Bosnian Muslims to fight for Hitler and exterminarte Jews in Croatia and Hungary.

He in fact referred to himself as the “Fuhrer of the Middle East.

After WW2 he organized Palestinian forces that attacked Israel after the UN voted
to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.

He's the one after the 1948 war, who recruited the Egyptian drug (hash hish, heroin dealer) Yasser
Arafat (founder of the PLO - now the PA) as his protégé.

The use of the Nazi salute, Nazi slogans and goose stepping of Hezbollah and Hamas and the PA come from

that Hitler connection.

It wasn't just there in the Palestinian national movement but in the states of Egypt, Iraq and Syria whose Bath parties

were a direct imitation of Nazism right down to the Mukbarat (borrowed fro Gestapo) military uniforms,

and even governments. Nazis flooded the government sof Egypt, Iraq and Syria before and after the war to

run them.

That connection is there. Its there for all to see.

That said it does not help to smeer all Palestinians as Nazis anymore than it does to smeer all Zionists as Nazis.

Either way the smeer is pointless.

Its important for understanding the roots of hatred of Jews and the denial of the holocaust entrenched in

Palestinian leaders, but the average Palestinian probably bases their hatred or distrust of Israelis based on

today's here and now situations on the ground just as in reverse with Israelis to Palestinians.

Using past history to stereotype an entire people is illogical and counter-productive to understanding how to resolve

a conflict. It can be useful to understand certain behaviour but it doesn't mean we assume that behaviour

will never change or is absolute and can be used to label all people with it.

So Hoser I said that because I come on this board and protest when people call all Israelis or Zionists Nazis,

I also for the exact same reason, don't support it if its done against Palestinians.

Its equally wrong and I believe that was part of your point of response and I support that part of it.

[Argus]

My gut instinct back then was that there was something not quite right about the hole situation in Israel/Palestine

And does your gut instinct think everything's wonderful in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Libya?

If you were an Arab, which government would you rather live under, the Israelis, as in Israeli citizens with full civil rights, or under Hamas, as in, you have no rights and the government will shoot you if you say anything against them?

I learned a trueism some time ago. The really crappy countries need to keep people from leaving. The good ones need to keep people from coming in. Over 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs, and none of them seem to be fleeing for the joyous existence of life in other Arab countries.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Argus

[BC_chick]

Sorry, I don't get where you guys are going with this. Are you all saying that if Palestinians were anything but Muslim, they would be cool with allowing European Jewish diaspora to build a country on their land?

Better question, what do you think you would do if you were a Palestinian circa 1945?

[bush_cheney2004]

Better question, what do you think you would do if you were a Palestinian circa 1945?

Move to the United States. Many Jews did this as well.

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry, I don't get where you guys are going with this. Are you all saying that if Palestinians were anything but Muslim, they would be cool with allowing European Jewish diaspora to build a country on their land?

Better question, what do you think you would do if you were a Palestinian circa 1945?

Join the 13th SS, perhaps?

Jews are cursed by Allah in the Quran.

[Rue]

BC Chick Palestinians had choices other than siding with Nazi Germany before and after the war. Some sided with the British before and after the war and fought side by side Jews actually in North Africa. Some donated land to Jews misplaced after WW2 and were killed for doing it.

Some actively sided with Hitler and then ex Nazis who moved to Egypt, Syria, Iraq.

Some stayed apolitical and were caught in the middle and were never political.

People had choices in 1945 in the Middle East. Many exercised a choice to stay in Israel and become citizens.

I am not here to dwell on the past. It won't resolve the present day conflict.

[Big Guy]

It appears that some Palestinians are attempting to use the International courts to get satisfaction for the illegal land grabs by Israel. They are targeting American and International Zionists who are bankrolling and profiting from this cultural genocide:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/palestinians-sue-pro-israel-tycoons-345bn-160307191923877.html

It is time that Sheldon Adelson and Irving Moskowitz were unmasked. I wish the struggling Palestinians well in getting justice and exposing these international Zionists intent on profiting from Palestinian injustice.

[Hoser360]

Its equally wrong and I believe that was part of your point of response and I support that part of it.

Thank you.

I am trying to understand the whole issue. I do not think the bombing of Gaza in 2014 was justified and do not support the continued expansion of the West back by the settlers. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere and I would argue that the 67' lines are more than a good enough place to start. For me, as a neutral party in this and one that is not confined to religious beliefs, I'd like to find a way, to help bring my little bit of help into finding an end of people being killed and marginalized. I'm not actually taking sides in this 'game' (for a lack of a better way to put it); I don't want to see or here about suicide bombers as much as indiscriminate artillery strikes in civilian areas. The one only perpetuates the other.

[Argus]

Sorry, I don't get where you guys are going with this. Are you all saying that if Palestinians were anything but Muslim, they would be cool with allowing European Jewish diaspora to build a country on their land?

Their land? You make it sound like the Jews didn't live there too. The land was divided among those who already lived there.

Better question, what do you think you would do if you were a Palestinian circa 1945?

I would have been overjoyed to find that the crappy little desert slum town I was living in was now going to be run by westerners who would be doing everything they could to make life better there.

[DogOnPorch]

Going back to the so-called "1967 line" (1949 armistice line) simply isn't going to fly with Israel unless something exceptional happens. It amounts to giving the Arabs a reward for starting (then losing) the Arab-Israeli War. Plus, if it's 1967, Gaza would be part of Egypt and the West Bank part of Jordan.

Sort of defeats the whole idea of giving terrorist Fatah/Hamas a state of their own free of Jews.

[Hoser360]

Lol do you read the Jerusalem Post as well?

I'd love nothing more than to clarify to you, all of my sources of information that I have learned directly from being directly involved day to day with'in the Jewish community. Over the course of a year I read all the small news papers/flyers that were made available. I also cultivated a good and respectful relationship with the local Rabbi. This was before 2014. At the time I felt it was a great opportunity to learn first hand about the Jewish community. Please understand, I couldn't tell the difference from Jewish person from an Italian, or, what ever, until I had lived in Toronto for a number of years in the 90's. Up until that time the only thing I had ever known about Jewish people I learned from the TV.

So, not to go on, but yes I have read the English version of the Jerusalem post and a variety of other Jewish news papers.

And look as for the religions of the middle east... I'll stand by the fact that if I had to chooses one of three, I'd chooses to be Jewish, A jewish person has never come to my door and tried to convince me to be jewish, and I respect that. Islam.... (lets not go there; it's too convoluted).

As for the situation between Israel and Palestine TODAY, what is the solution? How can the West Bank and Gaza exist and get back to the 67' boarder?

[Hoser360]

And does your gut instinct think everything's wonderful in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Libya?

If you were an Arab, which government would you rather live under, the Israelis, as in Israeli citizens with full civil rights, or under Hamas, as in, you have no rights and the government will shoot you if you say anything against them?

I learned a trueism some time ago. The really crappy countries need to keep people from leaving. The good ones need to keep people from coming in. Over 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs, and none of them seem to be fleeing for the joyous existence of life in other Arab countries.

Ya, that's a great choice... What level of f*cked up would you prefer..? War begets war! (do you actually know anyone from the area? I know people from both sides of the fence - sorry, 25' precast concrete wall and a check point at every turn).

This post is about Israel and Palestine and how to stop PEOPLE from being killed, regardless of who they call GOD. It is a political issue and any divergence from that, is an effort by those to use religion as a tool for their own ends and has nothing to with GOD.

If you want to draw in the rest of the Arab world into it, then I suggest you start a new topic.

[bush_cheney2004]

The 1967 border is not a promising solution given the many subsequent wars and conflict. Nothing magic about that.

[Hoser360]

Wrong.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19470915&id=lLAfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N9cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1802,5405767&hl=en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

Ya, in my little world the Palestine's had nothing to do with the holocaust. It has nothing to do with the PEOPLE who live in the WEST BANK or GAZA today.