Israel's war crimes in Gaza

[Rue]

That's it Ghost, sanctimonious? You can't even write me directly? Lol.

Then you claim you didn't see his latest quote? Lol. I never suggested you did but your silence as to his latest quote says it all.

Me sanctimonious because I challenge your attempting to defend this poster's rants on Jews on this forum? Lol. Sanctimonious because I defend my people's reputation and their right to exist as people?

Interesting how that works. Mayer comes on this board presuming to tell me what I can not be as a Jew, spews countless false statements about Jews, Zionism, Nazism, the holocaust, Judaism, posing as an expert on all of them with not one source to back up his comments, and you call me sanctimonious for challenging that and your defense of it. Yep, imagine a Jew fighting back and saying never again-damn sanctimonious.

Here let's state the sanctimonious words again because you keep saying you miss quotes, NEVER AGAIN.

[Rue]

Mayer calling me hyped does what? Does it refocus from the hateful venom you've pasted on this board? Well?

Right Mayer, hyped.

Thanks for the deep insightful analysis behind my responses.

Problem is Mayer, your words are here on the forum like a big brown stain on your pants. Calling me hyped won't focus away fromt he stain or smell especially when you try point at me and say I am the one who farted and that Mayer is all you do now, and I put in terms you can grasp.

Also Its good to know in addition to being a philosopher, expert on Nazism, Judaism, Jews, Zionism, etiology of words, Israel and the holocaust you are now a profiler who engages in thorough psycho-analytical investigation of the feelings behind my words.

Hyped.

Yah I love it.

Oh come now Mayer, hyped? You mean uppity. A damn uppity Jew. How dare he talk back to you.

Ma what do I do now., I got the Jew angry and he keeps talking back to me? Ma what should I do?

Edited March 1, 2016 by Rue

[DogOnPorch]

Drivel....etc. (I agree)

That's an interesting, but pretty far fetched example. Let me give you one far more accurate. You have a neighbourhood filled with Muslims. Suddenly, a Jewish family moves in down the block. The whole neighbourhood is in an uproar! The men all get together, brandishing clubs and knives and torches and rush over to burn out the Jews! But the Jew has a gun and shoots a few, and the rest run away.

And for seventy odd years, the Muslims have been trying to burn out those damn Jews.

That's pretty much what happened. Plus, it should be noted that it didn't take the formation of Israel for the Muslims in the region to go on a pogrom against the Jews.

For example...the Safed Pogrom of 1834. This was before even the Zionist Movement was formed to take advantage of the changes in the Ottoman Land Code of 1858. The only reason was for being Jewish in Dar-al-Islam....not some other reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed

[Scott Mayers]

Drivel. Lots of people speak against some of the things Israel does, including me. I'm against their west bank settlements, for example. But we question those with a single-minded, zealous focus on Israel's alleged shortcomings when they ignore all the neighbors who behave worse. Why so much determination against Israel instead of say, Syria or Iran?

Who's being single-minded here? I don't like ANY NATIONALISTS in the Middle East and know that each have roles in the abuses. You and your supporting side inappropriately DOMINATE the reality that regardless of abuses, treats Israel as innocent. They STOLE the lands in relatively RECENT times. You no doubt believe this was done 'legitimately' to which I have complete disagreement, as do most people. Yet this gets trivialized to absurdity as Israel continues to dominate with immunity of their MORE VIOLENT behaviors towards the Palestinians that CREATED the Palestinian's present extremes in response.

The ONLY DIFFERENCE to each extreme is that Israel has the unusual financial supports that grant them the means to build strong armies, and the religious zealous supports of Judaism AND the Christians who intend to fulfill religious prophesies and give validity to their beliefs for these two general cults. And you arrogantly think that the overt violence that is most extreme by the Palestinians regardless of their desperate positions IS somehow more vile than the means Israel is behaving.

FACT: Given any two opposing 'evils' in some conflict, the ones with the economic upper-hand uses INDIRECT tactics that make their actions appear as 'defensive' to justify their own oppressive behaviors. This kind of behavior is done effectively by using 'posited' means that appear to FAVOR some in-group but designed to hideously blur the fact they are corning, isolating, demeaning, and starving-out, their targeted group.

Example: Imagine a family of ten 'dependents' of parents (the relative Power of the house) who are composed of five children genetically related to the parents and five who are adopted. The parents only adopted before they realized they could have children of their own. But now that they were able to do so, they find FAVOR of their own genetic children and wish they hadn't had their adopted kids and now can't figure out what to do because they 'know' it isn't appropriate to simply kill off these disliked adopted children and would make others clearly recognize their disgusting hatred for doing so.

Instead of overtly killing them, then, they try to find some indirect way to do this by neglecting them with purpose in some way that makes these adopted kids SELF-DESTRUCT. If they do, the hope is that those kids will either kill themselves OR, should they ACT OUT in some way in their desperation by behaving in ways NO ONE would question is evidently vile, they have a 'legitimate' justice to directly defeat these unwanted children for their extreme responses.

An example might be to distribute the food at the dinner table first and foremost to all your 'favored' children and encourage them to eat as heartily as they wish. Then to the adopted children they don't favor, they leave the scraps or nothing at all which makes them undernourished and leads them to real physical and psychological problems.

In time, as these unwanted children become more and more unhealthy and sick, one of these children begins to try to steal from the better-off children. Yet, for the act, they are doubly penalized with apparent 'justice' by the parents halving the remaining scraps to all the adopted kids on the realization that it would only entice more poor behavior. The poorer and more clearly violent, the better. This way they can later most justly eliminate them with the approval of onlookers.

Now, this is what is happening with Israel, as the parents (power) and their favored children to create the extremes of "terrorism" of the Palestinians, to which they can then excuse their own hated actions.

To me and others, the Israelis are clearly acting with sufficient circumstantial evidence that proves their sincere hatred AND purpose to annihilate the Palestinians and Muslims. And while I don't approve of ANY violence by the Palestinians, I also see they have no other choice unless you expect them to all collectively commit suicide. And this is the very reason you see some of them go to such extremes. If they are being pressured to self-destruct, their thinking is that if they are doomed anyways, why not take down others with them?

I think you're getting more than a little overly emotional here.

No. My passion in argument here is to the lack of logic that keeps the cycle of abuses alive. I'm also as passionate on most issues if you've read my postings. So no, I'm also not targeting Israel without the recognition this occurs everywhere. But for this thread, I believe the Israeli conflicts are only resolvable if THEY change as it is in their POWER, not their desperate 'enemies' who are the trigger problem in the Middle East.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who's being single-minded here? I don't like ANY NATIONALISTS in the Middle East and know that each have roles in the abuses. You and your supporting side inappropriately DOMINATE the reality that regardless of abuses, treats Israel as innocent. They STOLE the lands in relatively RECENT times.

So does this mean it was OK to STEAL land in not so RECENT times, as was done by many other nations, many with unsettled land claims ?

If so, what is the cutoff for RECENT ?

Israel is not any more innocent than many other nation states exercising economic and military power for self interest and preservation.

[Scott Mayers]

So does this mean it was OK to STEAL land in not so RECENT times, as was done by many other nations, many with unsettled land claims ?

If so, what is the cutoff for RECENT ?

Israel is not any more innocent than many other nation states exercising economic and military power for self interest and preservation.

I'm not in disagreement with this at all. My own personal philosophy on morality is that by nature itself, it is not 'real'. But morality is still something we 'have' if we interpret the 'ideals' they could represent to aid in special goals. For humans, our goals serve best when we try to find the most efficient means to be most civil, as it also serves our selfishly derived values most by negotiating rules (morals) between each other to optimize EACH of our selfish drives. The question to which ones are most efficient and balanced become the collective ethics we use to adjust laws to aid in making this happen. But some ideas are less effective. And the major one I think is most destructive is "nationalism", by how I tried to define it previously here.

It is generically understood as different things in different places. But in general, I use this to describe GROUP FAVORITISMs. This opposes the INDIVIDUAL or the WHOLE, both of which we need to attend to rather than setting our standards to optimize the 'group'. Nor am I saying that groups themselves are bad. But I think that how the group is defined without sincere relevance to the claims for being such groups are problematic.

The 'group' (classification of) "Red-heads" is understood to define those who have red hair. But if I imposed some other additional quality that has no logical relevance to the fact of having red hair, like by creating a group of 'red-heads' who believe they are intellectually distinct, this added quality has no sincere relation to hair color.

Ethnicity is this type of combining ones' external, genetic, qualities based on ones ancestry, and falsely adds one's optional environmental qualities as being OWNED by one's roots. Culture and ones ancestral history, for instance, is treated as though they have logical Necessity to the definition of ones accidental roots. If your parents and your parents parents and their parents, etc, have always had a Christmas tree to celebrate their yearly solstice, while comforting as a tradition to CHOOSE or not CHOOSE to carry on, they are not compelled to nor 'own' the quality of requiring a Christmas tree to continue. The problem occurs when some set of people religiously think that these type of qualities are intrinsic to ones offspring genetically.

The State of Israel is specifically an extreme type of group that defines themselves as requiring necessarily genetic and cultural qualities to be combined. This is no doubt similar to even many Palestinians but they aren't the actual ones empowered to make their own Nationalists succeed. Yet Israel IS empowering them even where they could be minimized because they ARE the same as the extremes they purport to defeat.

P.S. The 'cutoff'? The early 1900s of which (those specific) Jews began with the CLEAR goal to move into Palestine to forcefully found a Jewish-only (controlled) Nation, their religious homeland. Even today the building of the walls, the forceful settlements, etc, are just examples that they are NOW acting in direct violation of all those they accused of against them in previous eras. You don't correct a 'wrong' by balancing it with another 'wrong'; And when it creates accelerated wrongdoing by the relatively victimized people in the present, their responses, while 'wrong' still, require the ones in recent power of oppression to change first by doing a 'right' in voluntary sacrifice of their own comforts, not impose the 'others' to do the changing. Vice verse, if this is begun, the Palestinians will also then have to volunteerily alter their attitudes. But they at present lack their own capacity to sacrifice anything because they don't have anything but their own lives to sacrifice.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The question to which ones are most efficient and balanced become the collective ethics we use to adjust laws to aid in making this happen. But some ideas are less effective. And the major one I think is most destructive is "nationalism", by how I tried to define it previously here.

Very well, but just as "morality" is currently part of some frameworks, so is nationalism. Indeed, the fruits of nationalism were/are often realized through presumptions of "morality".

The State of Israel is specifically an extreme type of group that defines themselves as requiring necessarily genetic and cultural qualities to be combined. This is no doubt similar to even many Palestinians but they aren't the actual ones empowered to make their own Nationalists succeed. Yet Israel IS empowering them even where they could be minimized because they ARE the same as the extremes they purport to defeat.

Contrast this with another nation that pretends to define itself as "multicultural", the other side of the same coin. And does so to consolidate historical gains for land and natural resources to the present day, same as Israel.

P.S. The 'cutoff'? The early 1900s of which (those specific) Jews began with the CLEAR goal to move into Palestine to forcefully found a Jewish-only (controlled) Nation, their religious homeland.

Seriously ? You propose that the moral and legal cutoff for land appropriation by all nations should be the early 1900's, because this is when Zionism started to get traction ? Even if valid, how do you reconcile this date (for "Jews") compared to what other nations/groups did in self interest ?

[Scott Mayers]

Very well, but just as "morality" is currently part of some frameworks, so is nationalism. Indeed, the fruits of nationalism were/are often realized through presumptions of "morality".

Sure. That's why the idea is to find the most effective and efficient means here, not simply any means. Nationalism is based on giving up appealing to the whole or the individual because they believe it is impossible to operate or do NOT want it to operate. As such, they then oversimplify it by appealing ONLY to some group interest with exclusion to all others and so place significance on culture, religion, ethnic protections, etc, to strengthen their own group AT LEAST.

This conservatism is prevalent in ALL our political sides to some degree and so your follow-up concern on multi-culturalism is also justly suspect. Multi-culturalism is just the dishonest pretense to favor segregation of Nations among those Nationalists who are relatively disempowered in their present condition. But by collectively negotiating between similar Nationalists, they feign the pretense of believing in "diversity" but hide the fact that such diversity is defined by the cult, not individuals, as THE ultimate sincere minority. As soon as any one Nationality gains economic high-ground, they too then just take the more right-wing stance of a MONO-culture instead.

And NO, contrary to most, the idea of America's Melting Pot is NOT about creating such a MONO-culture. It IS a more sincere means of being truly 'multicultural' or liking 'diversity' but treat people's choices as individuals to be the ones to define their association, not some parental imposition that locks in their children's fate to be tied to their own beliefs or traditions.

Seriously ? You propose that the moral and legal cutoff for land appropriation by all nations should be the early 1900's, because this is when Zionism started to get traction ? Even if valid, how do you reconcile this date (for "Jews") compared to what other nations/groups did in self interest ?

No to your underlined quantifier I did not remotely imply. We were discussing Israel here. The Israeli Zionists began around the turn of the twentieth century when the first group of devout Jews from Russian origins decided to set up settlements with very clear resolve to favor a Jewish-only country. They religiously believed that God had granted them a natural right to Palestine. The original Palestinians there had been relatively welcoming of them [not 'terrorists'] and only as their homelands were deceptively being taken from them under the veil of 'legitimacy', did they begin to have real concern to find stronger resistance in kind.

Asking for some specific date is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the strongest 'wrongs' are occurring PRESENTLY from the Israeli side. Pointing fingers to the 'wrongs' of the Palestinians is more discriminatory because Israel treats ALL Palestinians as unwelcome citizens and have the power to limit Palestinians from even being ABLE to realistically have economic stability. It is Israel's paranoia that should the Palestinians get equal respect and treatment that they would effectively diminish the Nationalists intent to have a predominantly Jewish-favored system to the extremes the Nationalists among them DEMAND! (I know that even within Israel, the newer offspring also do not approve of the extremes but have inherited their own places due to their own parents and so are stuck too to require leaving it to the extremes of Jewish Nationalism to dictate the status, even if in potentially increasing minority.)

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure. That's why the idea is to find the most effective and efficient means here, not simply any means.

To date, the most efficient means has been nationalism, which is exercised worldwide. Israel can do the same if it chooses to do so without regret.

...No to your underlined quantifier I did not remotely imply. We were discussing Israel here. The Israeli Zionists began around the turn of the twentieth century when the first group of devout Jews from Russian origins decided to set up settlements with very clear resolve to favor a Jewish-only country. They religiously believed that God had granted them a natural right to Palestine.

And how is this different from the belief that God and Crown granted rights to native land in the Americas ? Was "nationalism" not involved in such expansionist policies ? Does the rule book change only when Jews and Palestinians are involved ?

Why is Israel held to a different standard...be it the occupation of land or "war crimes" in defense from existential attack?

[Scott Mayers]

To date, the most efficient means has been nationalism, which is exercised worldwide. Israel can do the same if it chooses to do so without regret.

And then this justifies why those like Hitler and the Nazis behaved the same way. If we have to believe that this world is hopelessly unable to be repaired, then any Nationalists have as equal validity and only require being able to be sufficiently powerful to impose their own will.

But the alternative to treat individuals as the most qualifying minority or 'nation' AND the whole collectively, we at least have hope to optimally improve civilization where we progress using shared interests. Nationalism only 'shares' its interest to some specific group and creates the dichotomy of 'an us versus them' mentality. Nationalism is a means to revert to our native state of being non-civil and so by default an enemy to civilization.

And how is this different from the belief that God and Crown granted rights to native land in the Americas ? Was "nationalism" not involved in such expansionist policies ? Does the rule book change only when Jews and Palestinians are involved ?

Why is Israel held to a different standard...be it the occupation of land or "war crimes" in defense from existential attack?

Yes, to the first question. No to the second. How are you assuming I'm being inconsistent here? Hadn't you seen my concerns elsewhere on Native issues? I don't believe it was appropriate to reserve natives as if they were distinct beings. Canada's formation (accidental) was itself about clashes between desolate groups who believed in Nationalistic ideals. They only 'agreed' to live together but in segregated areas. The remnant survivors of this was to the Confederates of the Southern states who believed in their right to distinctively think of some subset of humans as intrinsically inferior to another. They also denied this too because they perceived themselves as merely 'proud' of their own ingroups and that nature itself, while 'unfair', makes some groups unfortunate by nature (and their 'gods'). To them, the blacks WERE treated 'fair' by nature, and that 'slavery' was representative of the innate volition of the Blacks for their own lack of sufficient WILL to succeed. (Sound familiar?)

The Palestinians ARE the present 'slaves' who upon resisting this were ALSO reserved like the North American natives. That is, while today we already recognize errors of the past and some are at least trying to repair this, this attitude is still prevalent in Israel-Palestine as the Palestinians are both treated like the Blacks AND the Natives we deem inappropriate yet persists and is unfolding NOW!

Israel also adds the extra problem that their concerns affect us GLOBALLY as both they and the Palestinians/Arabs are stealing the stage of attention. This is absurdly disrespectful of similar problems we should be each attending to in our own countries.

[bush_cheney2004]

And then this justifies why those like Hitler and the Nazis behaved the same way. If we have to believe that this world is hopelessly unable to be repaired, then any Nationalists have as equal validity and only require being able to be sufficiently powerful to impose their own will.

The irony of this response is not easily missed. Godwin's Law proven yet again.

Yes, to the first question. No to the second. How are you assuming I'm being inconsistent here? Hadn't you seen my concerns elsewhere on Native issues? I don't believe it was appropriate to reserve natives as if they were distinct beings. Canada's formation (accidental) was itself about clashes between desolate groups who believed in Nationalistic ideals.

And yet, you continue to support and benefit from the status quo in Canada, while criticizing Israel for attempting the same thing. Slavery in the Americas (including Canada) was primarily an economic system for cheap, agrarian labour not unlike the low paid migrant workers of today.

The Palestinians ARE the present 'slaves' who upon resisting this were ALSO reserved like the North American natives. That is, while today we already recognize errors of the past and some are at least trying to repair this, this attitude is still prevalent in Israel-Palestine as the Palestinians are both treated like the Blacks AND the Natives we deem inappropriate yet persists and is unfolding NOW!

So what? The 'slaves' achieved constitutional rights through war, and civil rights through non-violent protest and voting rights. They didn't use rocket attacks, suicide bombers, kidnappings, murders, etc. Israel cannot and should not accept violent attacks as a just response to the expansion and occupation of territory going back to the many Arab wars.

"Aboriginals" (love that term so popular in Canada) still have unsettled land claims in the Americas....NOW! Should they launch rockets and murder those loyal to the oppressive Crown?

[DogOnPorch]

I think it was wrong for the international community to let Jordan off the hook in 1988 when they gave-up further claim to their annexed West Bank. This left Israel holding the bag in terms of the aftermath of the Six Day War. Suddenly, the "Palestinians" were now Israel's problem rather than Jordan's. Machiavelli would have been proud...

And Jordan was all too happy to do so seeing the "Palestinians" not only assassinated their first king (Abdullah I) but tried to take over the entire country in 1970 (Black September). Good riddance to bad actors. But, this feud goes back to at least the end of WW1....the al-Husseini clan vs the Hashemite clan. Both clans fancy themselves the TRUE descendants of Mohammad and thus RIGHTFUL keepers of the holy Al-Aqsa/Temple Mount...still an issue today. Who is more holier than thou?

But, that aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict is usually ignored...as it will in this thread.

As for comments about slaves and such: the Arabs started this whole affair and now sleep in the bed they made. Unfortunately they also sleep with the rest of the planet re: war and terrorism. It bears fruit not only in terms of the Arab-Israeli Conflict but all over the Middle East...North Africa...Europe...beyond. Tiresome...

[bush_cheney2004]

....But, that aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict is usually ignored...as it will in this thread.

As for comments about slaves and such: the Arabs started this whole affair and now sleep in the bed they made. Unfortunately they also sleep with the rest of the planet re: war and terrorism. It bears fruit not only in terms of the Arab-Israeli Conflict but all over the Middle East...North Africa...Europe...beyond. Tiresome...

Agreed....and if Israel's actions in Gaza constitute "war crimes", then the world better get ready for lots more whenever Israel is attacked.

[Argus]

Who's being single-minded here? I don't like ANY NATIONALISTS in the Middle East and know that each have roles in the abuses. You and your supporting side inappropriately DOMINATE the reality that regardless of abuses, treats Israel as innocent.

Not entirely, but certainly they are the victim of unrelenting hostility and violence directed towards them by their neighbours. Imagine, if you can, that when Israel was established by the United Nations, the surrounding Arab states sent ambassadors instead of armies, and bowed to work together with the new Israel and Palestine for the betterment of all. With Israeli engineering, organizational and agricultural skills aiding the region, and their rising technology being spread around the area would be immensely better off today than is now the case.

But the Arabs sent armies instead, and more than once.

They STOLE the lands in relatively RECENT times. You no doubt believe this was done 'legitimately' to which I have complete disagreement, as do most people.

I think you will find it easier to know what I think if you read what I write rather than imagining things.

Personally, if I was in charge, I'd have Israel vacate the West Bank just as they did Gaza, but that's neither here nor there. Israel took the territory in wars which were the responsibility of its Arab neighbours. And those selfsame neighbours have refused to sign peace treaties to get land back, with the exception of the Egyptians, who got their land returned. The Jordanians, of course, don't WANT the West Bank back. A little matter of the PLO trying to take over Jordan some time back, you see.

Yet this gets trivialized to absurdity as Israel continues to dominate with immunity of their MORE VIOLENT behaviors towards the Palestinians that CREATED the Palestinian's present extremes in response.

Oh, I think not. The Palestinians extreme response predates Israel's violence. Let's remember that Israel's initial conquests in the six day war were against Egypt only, because Egypt had mobiilzed its army amid thunderous threats against Israel. Israel struck first, and Egypt then lied about the results and persuaded Jordan and Syria to attack Israel. That was how Jordan lost the West Bank and Jerusalem.

The ONLY DIFFERENCE to each extreme is that Israel has the unusual financial supports that grant them the means to build strong armies

And the Arabs have oil wealth and numbers. So? Sounds not altogether uneven to me.

And you arrogantly think that the overt violence that is most extreme by the Palestinians regardless of their desperate positions IS somehow more vile than the means Israel is behaving.

Yes. Deliberately and relentlessly targeting civilians is more extreme than what the Israelis do.

FACT: Given any two opposing 'evils' in some conflict, the ones with the economic upper-hand uses INDIRECT tactics that make their actions appear as 'defensive' to justify their own oppressive behaviors.

That's a nice theory but given we've seen the brutality of Palestinian terrorist tactics many times over the years, there really isn't much doubt.

To me and others, the Israelis are clearly acting with sufficient circumstantial evidence that proves their sincere hatred AND purpose to annihilate the Palestinians and Muslims.

And yet, there are more Palestinians than there have ever been, and more Muslims. So those crafty Jews seem to have made some mistakes somewhere.

And while I don't approve of ANY violence by the Palestinians, I also see they have no other choice unless you expect them to all collectively commit suicide.

I take it you reject Gandhi and King's belief that non-violent resistance will be a superior and civilized way to bring about change.

It seems to me the Palestinians had it much, much better prior to their Intifada, and prior to suicide bombings. Life in the territories was much better, and there were jobs available. Life there was not unlike that of their contemporaries in Jordan or Syria.

[DogOnPorch]

As for setting dates for when countries could be formed...by war or any other means...in hopes of isolating Israel as a lone example...I'll remind the forum that North Viet-Nam invaded South-Viet-Nam and kept the spoils. They then proceeded to massacre/reeducate/ethnically cleanse South Viet-Nam of undesirables in an event called The Boat People. Nobody gave a rat's rear about South Viet-Nam...rationalizing its demise...US puppet...part of a 'civil war'...etc, etc.

You don't want to go down that route...

Agreed....and if Israel's actions in Gaza constitute "war crimes", then the world better get ready for lots more whenever Israel is attacked.

Oh, goodness yes. They're still sane in an insane world. They still know what to do when attacked by the enemy.

[Hoser360]

As a direct result of IDF "aggression"? You mean the IDF targeting Hamas missile sites?

Damn Jews! Who do they think they are anyway!

Ya the ones 'reportedly' hidden under hospitals, power plants and other infrastructure. No to mention all the weapons in that neighborhood that was raised to the ground through a land, sea and aerial bombardment.

Oh, and said nothing of Jew's or religion, this is politics no matter what religion the sheeple pray too.

[DogOnPorch]

Not entirely, but certainly they are the victim of unrelenting hostility and violence directed towards them by their neighbours. Imagine, if you can, that when Israel was established by the United Nations, the surrounding Arab states sent ambassadors instead of armies, and bowed to work together with the new Israel and Palestine for the betterment of all. With Israeli engineering, organizational and agricultural skills aiding the region, and their rising technology being spread around the area would be immensely better off today than is now the case.

But the Arabs sent armies instead, and more than once.

The trouble with villains like the Mufti in 1947-48 is that he had escaped custody and managed his way back to the Middle East. The Allies had diminishing resources post-WW2 and there was very few in authority to track down such a fellow. There were many other SS men on the run at the same time and the soft bigotry of things back then more or less gave the ol' fiend a pass on the Holocaust.

His return to the Middle East meant trouble though...and the world did notice his return to the world stage.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19470915&id=lLAfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N9cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1802,5405767&hl=en

[Scott Mayers]

The irony of this response is not easily missed. Godwin's Law proven yet again.

So, if I made a law like,

"Scott's Law: Anyone disagreeing with me personally is caused by those disagreeing with me personally. AND I declare this a 'fallacy' of absurd irrational circularity."

I too can then use this 'law' to dismiss you offhand.

If you don't like the Nazis, you have to NOT behave as them. I've established the appropriate comparisons to demonstrate Israel as not only being of the same belief, but is precisely WHAT the Nazis modeled their own perceived virtues they interpreted from Jewish Nationalists. Would the Nazis have been any 'better' had they simply NOT caused a Holocaust? If you define the only evil as this specific factor to nationalism, then you still agree to the other things, like creating ghettos, or concentration camps, or reserves, or, in general, segregated communities, right?

And yet, you continue to support and benefit from the status quo in Canada, while criticizing Israel for attempting the same thing. Slavery in the Americas (including Canada) was primarily an economic system for cheap, agrarian labour not unlike the low paid migrant workers of today.

Who do you suppose I am? Where did you presume I support AND benefit from any status here?

So what? The 'slaves' achieved constitutional rights through war, and civil rights through non-violent protest and voting rights. They didn't use rocket attacks, suicide bombers, kidnappings, murders, etc. Israel cannot and should not accept violent attacks as a just response to the expansion and occupation of territory going back to the many Arab wars.

"Aboriginals" (love that term so popular in Canada) still have unsettled land claims in the Americas....NOW! Should they launch rockets and murder those loyal to the oppressive Crown?

The American slaves had real support of the same non-Black community to derive their freedom. That's the point I made about the voluntary sacrifices of the prior oppressors requiring to have the power to alter things. They had to sacrifice AND voluntarily. Had this NOT occurred,the desperation would foster this and does.

"Aboriginal" is a term to reference the 'first humans ancestral to the territory of some country'. The German-nationalists were the 'aboriginals' of Germany. But your suggested example is precisely an example of why I am concerned. The Israelis falsely believe that since their long-ago ancestors had once been relatively 'native' to that land, that they have rightful justice to it. But the same is to the Arabs and in fact, they have MORE justice to it since they've been there for the last 700 years and MORE, considering "Arab" does not imply only the history of "Islam".

I am NOT the one proposing such extremes. Nationalism is itself the fault to which you illogically think is just. It is counter to 'civilization' though. And since the idea of even government is about organized rational systems to appeal to the people, and NOT about reverting to nature, the Israelis are forcefully acting uncivil towards ALL people there equally. They only reserve 'civil' treatment for Jewish or Jewish-favored peoples and treat the Arabs as garbage and 'uncivil'. So their very treatment of them and beliefs in the the supposed Arab's lack of 'civil' nature, should it be surprising should these innately assumed animals act like the very animals they are treated as?

Reminds me of some lyrics ("Beautiful People" by Marilyn Manson):

"Hey you, what do you see?

Something beautiful, something free?

Hey you, are you trying to be mean?

If you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean

...

The horrible people, the horrible people

It's as anatomic as the size of your steeple

Capitalism has made it this way,

Old-fashioned fascism will take it away"

You think Israel is somehow 'beautiful' but they require the contrast extreme of 'ugliness' to justify their arrogant belief in their segregated virtue. It isn't the fact one should perceive themselves as 'beautiful'; it is a problem when you internalize this quality as something intrinsic and special to your own with extreme.

[bush_cheney2004]

....You think Israel is somehow 'beautiful' but they require the contrast extreme of 'ugliness' to justify their arrogant belief in their segregated virtue. It isn't the fact one should perceive themselves as 'beautiful'; it is a problem when you internalize this quality as something intrinsic and special to your own with extreme.

Correct...I believe that Israel's policies and actions are beautifully the same as those of other nation states, past and present.

I see no reason for a different standard or departure from defense norms in the case of Israeli military operations in Gaza. My own nation supports Israel with military and economic aid in the pursuit of nation state interests.

Academic discussions about the evils of nationalism are largely irrelevant in this reality and context. Different topic from efficiently blowing up "terrorists" and those who sponsor "terrorism".

[Hoser360]

Academic discussions about the evils of nationalism are largely irrelevant in this reality and context. Different topic from efficiently blowing up "terrorists" and those who sponsor "terrorism".

Tell that to the people of Ukraine. Further more, Who decides what group is deemed a terrorist? Currently the US and it's allies can't even figure that out (in Europe or the middle east)!

Besides, it should be hard to call your self the victim when you are the occupier!

[DogOnPorch]

Correct...I believe that Israel's policies and actions are beautifully the same as those of other nation states, past and present.

I see no reason for a different standard or departure from defense norms in the case of Israeli military operations in Gaza. My own nation supports Israel with military and economic aid in the pursuit of nation state interests.

Academic discussions about the evils of nationalism are largely irrelevant in this reality and context. Different topic from efficiently blowing up "terrorists" and those who sponsor "terrorism".

Egypt receives a similar annual in-store windfall as Israel does. A win-win for the USA as nobody can deny 30+ years of peace as a result of Camp David as well as drawing Egypt out of the Soviet-Russian-Warsaw Pact sphere (Aswan High Dam be damned)....and Israel into being a de facto-NATO partner. Not bad. Syria should have made peace, too! Ka-ching.

Too bad about Sadat...liked him.

Edited March 2, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

Oh, and said nothing of Jew's or religion, this is politics no matter what religion the sheeple pray too.

Couldn't resist inserting an attack on Jews now could you. Ooops that facade of engaging in reasonable discourse seems to be missing.

Jewish religion is not what fuels Hamas,.Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority, Fatah, Islamic Jihad. Islamic Intifada, Popular Front For the Liberation of Palestine, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Muslim sharia law nations, the civil wars in Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain, Iraq, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, Somalia, Chad, Niger, Dahomey, Senegal or the terrorism, corruption and instability in North Africa, the Middle East, The Philippines, parts of Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, the terrorism in Europe and the Americas its Islam.

Oh but hey let's blame it on the Jewish religion. You know what's a day without blaming it on the Jewish religion.

I mean come on, our religion has us engaged in terrorism, civil war, all across the world. We knife people randomly in the name of Moses.

Hey now let me know when you are done with your passive aggressive anti-Jew shots, because you know I am right here giggling along.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

Egypt receives a similar annual in-store windfall as Israel does. A win-win for the USA as nobody can deny 30+ years of peace as a result of Camp David as well as drawing Egypt out of the Soviet-Russian-Warsaw Pact sphere (Aswan High Dam be damned)....and Israel into being a de facto-NATO partner. Not bad. Syria should have made peace, too! Ka-ching.

Too bad about Sadat...liked him.

The biggest benefit of the US involving itself in the Middle East was the interception and prevention of a nuclear war by the Soviets over Israel and/or fermenting take overs to control the oil supplies in the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

The US funded a military power that all of the Western World directly benefited from.

Eisenhower's mediated interception of the Suez Canal crisis has never been matched.

The world has no more Eisenhowers, understated leaders, people who can dettach from their emotions, see a larger picture and

understand the world is a constant juggling act of conflicted parties competing.

We have no leaders like that. There are no Churchills, Eisenhowers, FDR's-what we have are Trump, Trudeau, Hilary, Putin, Merkel.

[Hoser360]

Couldn't resist inserting an attack on Jews now could you. Ooops that facade of engaging in reasonable discourse seems to be missing.

Jewish religion is not what fuels Hamas,.Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority, Fatah, Islamic Jihad. Islamic Intifada, Popular Front For the Liberation of Palestine, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Muslim sharia law nations, the civil wars in Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain, Iraq, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, Somalia, Chad, Niger, Dahomey, Senegal or the terrorism, corruption and instability in North Africa, the Middle East, The Philippines, parts of Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, the terrorism in Europe and the Americas its Islam.

Oh but hey let's blame it on the Jewish religion. You know what's a day without blaming it on the Jewish religion.

I mean come on, our religion has us engaged in terrorism, civil war, all across the world. We knife people randomly in the name of Moses.

Hey now let me know when you are done with your passive aggressive anti-Jew shots, because you know I am right here giggling along.

Not exactly, someone else brought religion into it I perceive the matter to be political. I think people in power use religion to stir the emotional will of the people they govern to further their own ends. The Muslim world is the worst by far in this regard and I would take up arms against anyone who wanted to force Shari law on me. But as far as I am concern you can take all three middle eastern religions and throw them under the same bus.

As for 'your' religion causing terrorism all of the world, Israel doesn't have to, that's what it has America for.

[bush_cheney2004]

...As for 'your' religion causing terrorism all of the world, Israel doesn't have to, that's what it has America for.

I agree....unlike Canada or the United States, Israel doesn't have to cross oceans to commit "war crimes" against terrorists. Gaza is right next door.