dre Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 Top three human rights abusers in he world. North Korea Sudan Eritrea Number of indignant posts in the past five years decrying the plight of the people of North Korea, Sudan and Eritrea: 11 Number of indignant posts in the past five years decrying the plight of Palestinians: 186,531 One wonders what can be inspiring such desperate concern about what those Jews are up to. Ah yes, the oft trotted out "everyone's doing it" fallacy. Number of Israeli jews that oppose the occupation: Millions... All anti-Semites as well of course. I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 Any attempt to ensure security is going to have the effect of "punishing innocents". Its a matter of intention and policy though. Collateral damage is one thing... reckless collateral damage is another... deliberate collective punishment is yet another. I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 Ah yes, the oft trotted out "everyone's doing it" fallacy. Number of Israeli jews that oppose the occupation: Millions... All anti-Semites as well of course. No, that's not the 'everyone's doing it' fallacy. That's the "if human rights concerns are REALLY what motivates all those people who hate Israel how come they don't care about all the worse human rights abusers AT ALL question. Question. On the same day, Syria decides to execute a thousand children, while in Jerusalem, an Israeli cop slaps a Palestinian. Which gets the most airplay around the world? Which gets condemned by the United Nations? Which draws indignant posts here from those with "human rights concerns"? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) No, that's not the 'everyone's doing it' fallacy. That's the "if human rights concerns are REALLY what motivates all those people who hate Israel how come they don't care about all the worse human rights abusers AT ALL question. Question. On the same day, Syria decides to execute a thousand children, while in Jerusalem, an Israeli cop slaps a Palestinian. Which gets the most airplay around the world? Which gets condemned by the United Nations? Which draws indignant posts here from those with "human rights concerns"? Dozens of countries are spending billions of dollars, contributing to a military campaign, and accepting hundreds thousands of refugees in response to the Syrian campaign. The response is stupid and naive Ill give you that but its there. The substantive response to Israels transgressions? ZERO. Israel is given a complete pass, and in fact in many cases has been AIDED and SPONSORED by the international community. People like to talk about the Is/Pal conflict and over the last 60 years its become a sport to debate it between liberals and conservatives in the west and cherry pick the facts and events that support each side. I agree too much attention is given it to it especially in places like this... And I personally wouldn't start a thread about it if all of those idiots over there killed each other or that dirt farm was turned into 6 feet of glass. But the opposite of what you say is true. Edited February 20, 2016 by dre I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Rue Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Ok, to start, I will apologize for not choosing my words more carefully because in all honesty I am sorry if I have offended you (our others) that was not my intent. I concede that the initial formation of Zionism by its founder Theodor Herzil was not a bad idea, evil or otherwise. So I retract my statement "reared its ugly head", that was wrong of me to say and I am sorry. Let me go on to say, that I have no issue with Israel in and of itself and absolutely no issue with Judaism (Jewish people) what so ever; that I assure you (for what it is worth, if I had to choose between the 3 religions of the middle east, I would choose to be Jewish - Jews have never knocked on my door and tried to convince me to join their faith and I respect that immensely). Let me shed some light on my perspective Since I was born in 1970, lets say that I recognize the boarders as set in 1967, as that seems reasonable to me. From that point I have built my perception, understanding, of how things are today. I do not subscribe to any particular religion. To call ones self a Zionist, does not describe ones religious beliefs or ethnic heritage. I do not believe that church and state should ever be as one. I have absolutely no respect for what the US, its allies and/or NATO has done to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and by proxy to Syria. I am Canadian. What I am strongly against is the continued Israeli expansion into the occupied West Bank and most definitely the bombing of Gaza in 2014. The result of the bombing in Gaza most likely created a hole new generation of Palestinians who hate Israel even more than they already did and served more to bread the very extremism the Israeli's hoped to stamp out. I do not believe that someones holy scripture should be the basis for occupying land that they have no immediate family ownership of. Military or foreign aid? I did not make that distinction, in fact the former is much worse than the latter. Just because Israel turns the money around to buy weapons and invest in weapon technology actually only serves my point, regardless of how many Americans benefit from this. Perhaps if the US stopped its endless wars, they could have invested in their own education system and produced the same level of expertise you describe Israel as having, for themselves. I thank you for taking the time to acknowledge me. I do not think Israel is perfect but I do not think for a second it has at this time a genuine peace partner to sit and talk with. I think if and when a Muslim leader actually exists who will recognize the right of Israel to be a Jewish state and does not get killed for saying that, maybe just maybe this might start something. The reality is cold and cruel. Abbas has made it clear he wants a Muslim state in Israel, the West Bank and Jordan and will never accept a Jewish state of Israel. So has Hamas and Hezbollah. This is a direct danger to Israel and Jordan. Until terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank are disarmed like terrorists were in Northern Ireland, Israel's hands and Jordan's hands are tied. Disarm the terrorists then Israel can pull out of the West Bank and then over time who knows maybe the wall can come down like the Berlin one did. Long term it would make sense to make an economic free trade market with Jordan, Palestine and Israel. We are just not there. I believe there are two equal parties that both have the right to nationhood, one Jewish, one Palestinian. Hoser you will not hear that from Big Guy, Hudson Jones, et al. They won't and can't acknowledge that Jews have a legitimate right to statehood. They will support that for Palestinians but not Jews. They have no problem with Muslim states or Christian states but can not conceive of a Jewish one.. They have no problem with hundreds of countries having laws of return for identified national groups, i.e., the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Russia, China, Taiwan, Finland, South Korea, Belgium, Ireland, Germany but of Israel has such a law they call it racist. They remain silent on how Jews are defined as dhimmi (inferior second class) in Muslim countries and not allowed citizenship in a Muslim country. That is why I debate them. Do I support fundamentalist Jewish religious extremists, no I do not, for the same reason I reject it with Muslims. Also I personally think state and religion should remain separate. I think Israel was created to protect Jews as a collective people. It was created to assure no state could be used to exterminate us. Its an existential safeguard to prevent future holocausts coming to us or the continued mistreatment of our people in the Muslim world. It provides a refuge for Jews. However most Israelis like me are not religious. We have as much problems with extremist fundamentalist Jews as Christians do with their own, or Muslims do with their own. The reality is the values of Israel today are Western not fundamentalist not ancient Jewish. Our values are no different than the modern nations of Europe. There is too much emphasis on materialism and military for all of us in the West yes.... but there is a clash happening with Eastern Muslim traditionalism-its causing a war between Muslims and that war is months away from taking to the streets of Europe We have to be open and honest about what values we don't agree with and why and stop pretending Canada is capable of accepting any value and supporting countries that engage in the kind of terrorism we see in Libya, Chad, Dahomey, Senegal, Niger, Tunisia, Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Kenya, Somalia, Ngeria, Eritrea, Mail, Bahrain, Yemen, Saudi Arabia. Thank you for being gracious. Edited February 20, 2016 by Rue
Argus Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 Dozens of countries are spending billions of dollars, contributing to a military campaign, and accepting hundreds thousands of refugees in response to the Syrian campaign. The response is stupid and naive Ill give you that but its there. Only because millions of Syrians are flooding into Europe. Substitute Sudan if you prefer, or Eritrea, or Russia, for that matter. Nobody cares. The central African Republic? Nobody cares. The substantive response to Israels transgressions? ZERO. Israel is given a complete pass, and in fact in many cases has been AIDED and SPONSORED by the international community. Most of Israel's 'transgressions' are pretty minor given the conflict involved. The only thing which the 'international community' should have a right to take any action on is their continuing settlement program in the West Bank. People like to talk about the Is/Pal conflict and over the last 60 years its become a sport to debate it between liberals and conservatives in the west and cherry pick the facts and events that support each side. I agree too much attention is given it to it especially in places like this.. And my question remains: Why? It clearly isn't about human rights abuses. There are dozens of nations with worse human rights records. Yet I can't think of a time in the last twelve years I've been on this site where some sanctimonious individual hasn't launched another attack on Israel here for its "human rights violations". "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 And my question remains: Why? It clearly isn't about human rights abuses. There are dozens of nations with worse human rights records. Yet I can't think of a time in the last twelve years I've been on this site where some sanctimonious individual hasn't launched another attack on Israel here for its "human rights violations". This question has been answered 100's of times on here. "Jew hating" is a factor for some people, but there's a lot of other factors, and branding critics of Israel is anti-semites is just a boiler plate tactic use by people trying to play the poor innocent victim card. I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 20, 2016 Report Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Why so many threads devoted to Israeli "war crimes" compared to those of many other nations if not for a hatred of Jews and "Zionism"? Edited February 20, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted February 21, 2016 Report Posted February 21, 2016 Why so many threads devoted to Israeli "war crimes" compared to those of many other nations if not for a hatred of Jews and "Zionism"? This question has been answered 100's of times on here. "Jew hating" is a factor for some people, but there's a lot of other factors, and branding critics of Israel is anti-semites is just a boiler plate tactic use by people trying to play the poor innocent victim card. I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted February 21, 2016 Report Posted February 21, 2016 This question has been answered 100's of times on here. "Jew hating" is a factor for some people, but there's a lot of other factors, and branding critics of Israel is anti-semites is just a boiler plate tactic use by people trying to play the poor innocent victim card. Maybe. But when someone posts time and time again of how evil and horrible Israel is, then speaks approvingly of Iran and dismisses any complaints about its human rights abuses as "Israeli propaganda" you gotta wonder. They clearly don't have a problem with human rights abuses, after all. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hudson Jones Posted February 21, 2016 Author Report Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Why so many threads devoted to Israeli "war crimes" compared to those of many other nations if not for a hatred of Jews and "Zionism"? Because of three main reasons: 1) No one here tries to excuse the criminal acts by the government of those countries 2) Our Western governments, either due to pressure and/or heavy lobbying, are hesitant to be truthful and condemn Israel's criminal behaviour, therefore enabling Israel to continue doing what they have been doing for the past 60+ years. 3) The leader of the Western World gives around $4 billion a year enabling Israel to continue with their criminal behaviour There are MANY Jews who speak out against Israel's criminal behaviour and what Zionism is. Which is the acceptance and the excuse of committing human rights violations of one group for the selfish gain of another group of people. Again, what is happening in Israel and the Occupied Territories and our governments' reaction to it is very similar to what happened in Apartheid South Africa. Our governments, at first, supported the Apartheid government, but after pressure from people around the world, they had no choice but to change their tone. Same thing will happen with Israel. Not many people, who are actually learning about the situation can no longer buy what Israel has been selling for decades, which is that Israel is the victim and it's doing what it is doing for "security" or "defensive" measures. It's bullshit that doesn't measure up to reality. Edited February 21, 2016 by Hudson Jones When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 21, 2016 Report Posted February 21, 2016 Because of three main reasons: 1) No one here tries to excuse the criminal acts by the government of those countries 2) Our Western governments, either due to pressure and/or heavy lobbying, are hesitant to be truthful and condemn Israel's criminal behaviour, therefore enabling Israel to continue doing what they have been doing for the past 60+ years. 3) The leader of the Western World gives around $4 billion a year enabling Israel to continue with their criminal behaviour This is just more of the same deflections past....Israel is the main target just because some people always want Israel/Jews to remain the main target, regardless of how much larger "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" are occurring elsewhere around the world. They have a singular anti-Zionism objective that has nothing to do with war crimes or human suffering, lest they would hold their own government(s) to the same standard. Economics trumps Virtue.
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) One of the themes I keep hearing to justify the authority of Israel’s actions in Palestine today, is to point at other countries and their actions, be they internal action against their own people (such as North Korea) or towards other countries (like the US in Iraq). I think this a poor excuse to justify anything that would otherwise be considered immoral, a sin or otherwise illegal. If we try to keep to a civilized discussion regarding the topic of this thread and what I hope is the purpose, it is to help educate people on the hypocrisy of the Israeli authority when it comes to the actions of the IDF, as witnessed during the bombing and invasion of Gaza in the summer of 2014 and the continued siege of Gaza. From my perspective, this should not be a discussion of theology or what other governments have done or due in other countries. ‘Finger pointing’ at others to justify ones action is like saying my father beat up my mother so why can’t I beat up my wife? Or, put a different way, my husband raped me so I caught off his penis; neither one of these ‘excuses’ are justification for the action in a modern civilized world if you accept the rule of law. Getting back to the point of this forum (as I understand it) there are up to seven thousand reviews of this forum and some seven hundred posts, so, it is just possible that some people who have never made a comment, have in fact learned something they didn’t know, and the message, the purpose of this forum, is actually being realized. Edited February 22, 2016 by Hoser360
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) One of the themes I keep hearing to justify the authority of Israel’s actions in Palestine today, is to point at other countries and their actions, be they internal action against their own people (such as North Korea) or towards other countries (like the US in Iraq). I think this a poor excuse to justify anything that would otherwise be considered immoral, a sin or otherwise illegal. Why...your own government is responsible for identical policies and actions. Why is Israel, a sovereign state just like Canada, held to a different standard ? That is the point of any such comparisons. If we try to keep to a civilized discussion regarding the topic of this thread and what I hope is the purpose, The topic's title is an opinion, not fact. Unlike Israel or the United States, Canada bombs other nations, invades others, and deposes democratically elected leadership (e.g. Haiti 2004) without ever being attacked. Canada has never been held accountable for its many "war crimes". What's so special about Gaza ? Getting back to the point of this forum (as I understand it) there are up to seven thousand reviews of this forum and some seven hundred posts, so, it is just possible that some people who have never made a comment, have in fact learned something they didn’t know, and the message, the purpose of this forum, is actually being realized. For sure...many have to be reminded that Israel is a sovereign state that will defend its interests with military force, just like Canada. Edited February 22, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 Thank you BC, you have just made my point, you point at crimes by others to justify those committed by Israel, so I infer that you realize Israel has committed crimes. The point of this forum is not what Canada, France, England or the US or anyone else has done or are doing (interestingly enough, I believe it is some of these very countries that have actually made Zionism possible), but, of the actions of the IDF in the summer of 2014 in Gaza.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 Thank you BC, you have just made my point, you point at crimes by others to justify those committed by Israel, so I infer that you realize Israel has committed crimes. The point of this forum is not what Canada, France, England or the US or anyone else has done or are doing (interestingly enough, I believe it is some of these very countries that have actually made Zionism possible), but, of the actions of the IDF in the summer of 2014 in Gaza. The actions of the IDF in 2014 have not been prosecuted as "war crimes". The premise is an opinion expressed many times by Israel's critics in many forum threads. Nothing special about this one. If you have evidence of war crimes convictions, please point it out. Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted February 22, 2016 Author Report Posted February 22, 2016 This is just more of the same deflections past....Israel is the main target just because some people always want Israel/Jews to remain the main target, regardless of how much larger "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" are occurring elsewhere around the world. They have a singular anti-Zionism objective that has nothing to do with war crimes or human suffering, lest they would hold their own government(s) to the same standard. You seem pretty confident that people like that exist. Maybe there are people like that. I know that myself and pretty much every person I have come across who is advocating for justice for the Palestinians are not what you describe. What Israel has been doing in the past 60+ years and our governments' lack of interest in being honest about it is a major issue here. The number of people opposing this trend will continue to grow to the point that our governments' will no longer be able to support Israel's criminal behaviour. When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Big Guy Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) For all the years of suppression, intimidation and genocide, there are still Palestinians who hold out hope and continue to protest the atrocities that Israel continues to enact on the Palestinian people. http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/bilin-israeli-occupation-separation-wall/index.html But Netanyahu continues to absorb Palestinian land as Canada stays silent. Shame on Canada. Time to shine a spotlight on this continuing war crime. Edited February 22, 2016 by Big Guy Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 You seem pretty confident that people like that exist. Maybe there are people like that. I know that myself and pretty much every person I have come across who is advocating for justice for the Palestinians are not what you describe. Then why don't they expend as much energy on far more numerous "human rights" abuses around the world ? Is there a "BDS Canada" ? What Israel has been doing in the past 60+ years and our governments' lack of interest in being honest about it is a major issue here. The number of people opposing this trend will continue to grow to the point that our governments' will no longer be able to support Israel's criminal behaviour. Good for them....looks like they will have to wait a while longer, as the ruling government in Canada just put the kabash on any official BDS Israel policy. If Gazans again choose to threaten Israel in the future, Israel will respond with military force, and Canada won't do a damn thing about it. Economics trumps Virtue.
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 The actions of the IDF in 2014 have not been prosecuted as "war crimes". The premise is an opinion expressed many times by Israel's critics in many forum threads. Nothing special about this one. If you have evidence of war crimes convictions, please point it out. So it's not a crime until someone is convicted. Well like some of us will say in North America, it's a great legal system (if you can afford it). Anyone with an open mind can find for themselves an avalanche of evidence of Israeli war crimes and the more you try to distract from that the more it will come out and the more people will begin to understand how bad it really is. You like to point out to me Canadian war crimes, well Canada has not commited a war crime that can even hold a candle to what happened in Gaza in 2014, except our participation in the Allied bombing of Dresden It is easy to find people of Israel and IDF soldiers who speak out against what has been happening their? And the video links are not for you there for you, but, for the people who have an open mind and are interested in getting to know what is really going on instead what is being spoon fed to them through the cooperate media of North America. www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL4D7NSFN5M BBC report www.youtube.com/watch?v=u59ii5znkLI Eran Efrati www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvtC_qzHVM4 Jimmy Carter
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 It is estimated that almost 2000 people were killed by the IDF in Gaza in 2014. I'd bet that created many, many more people who would be willing to die to kill Israeli's. The policies of the current Zionist government are little more than self fulfilling prophecy. If my entire family was killed by the IDF what do you think I would be doing with the rest of mine? You help ensure you have an enemy in order to justify killing more of them. I'd like to see how Israel would behave if there was no foreign aid.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 So it's not a crime until someone is convicted. Well like some of us will say in North America, it's a great legal system (if you can afford it). That's correct...all of this Gaza "war crimes" nonsense is alleged, without any formal proceedings by the ICC. They are more focused on only bringing charges against African nations. Funny how that works, huh ? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinians-press-international-criminal-court-to-charge-israel-with-war-crimes/2015/06/25/c0c85306-19d1-11e5-bed8-1093ee58dad0_story.html Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) It is estimated that almost 2000 people were killed by the IDF in Gaza in 2014. I'd bet that created many, many more people who would be willing to die to kill Israeli's. The policies of the current Zionist government are little more than self fulfilling prophecy. If my entire family was killed by the IDF what do you think I would be doing with the rest of mine? You help ensure you have an enemy in order to justify killing more of them. I'd like to see how Israel would behave if there was no foreign aid. Israel would "behave" the same against Gazans or anybody else that attacks them. Canada attacks countries with far less reason and no foreign aid, also committing..."war crimes". Edited February 22, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 You know what is particularly disturbing about this subject, about discussing this subject as a person who questions the moral and ethical actions of today's Israel? Is that I do not feel I can do so in an open forum meaning using my personal information. My mother has even warned me to be very careful about this subject in public since there could be repercussions and it is better to just not talk about it. My mother is not the only person to suggest this to me, least I be accused of being an 'anti-Semite' (which I am most definitely not). Criticizing Israel is almost a crime and almost certainly taboo. This fact alone is a warning that something is wrong, very wrong.
Hoser360 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 Israel would "behave" the same against Gazans or anybody else that attacks them. Canada attacks countries with far less reason and no foreign aid, also committing..."war crimes". Since WW II, who has Canada attacked and killed 2000 people?
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