eyeball Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 No, I expect it'll stay the same and maybe even grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) No, I expect it'll stay the same and maybe even grow. Why? I'm not an aficionado of ME politics but it seems that the US only jumped aboard the Israeli bandwagon during the cold war to contain Soviet influence in the region. Prior to 60's the US even opposed Israel in dealings with Egypt. Post cold war they stuck around to limit disputes and provide some stability to the world oil markets. IMO, support for Israel has had nothing to do with Islamophobia or terrorism, it has just been a useful tool for US interests in that region. When western economies are no longer a hostage of fossil energy, I expect both Israeli and Saudi support will fade quickly. Edited January 26, 2015 by Mighty AC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 We sure have different expectations then. I expect millions upon million in the region will be killed before the fire finally burns out and that the west will be right in the thick of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 ....When western economies are no longer a hostage of fossil energy, I expect both Israeli and Saudi support will fade quickly. This is fantasy.....the global economy still needs fossil fuels. It's not just about "the West". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well not JUST about the west, but clearly about the west profiting the most from that need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) This is fantasy.....the global economy still needs fossil fuels. It's not just about "the West". If the west moves beyond critical oil dependency, I think China and India will be expected to do the heavy lifting in the middle east. Edited January 26, 2015 by Mighty AC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have answered your points, and you just come back with more questions, opening up new threads of the discussion. I think it's fair that you answer my questions now. I already asked and haven't heard an answer: What is the end point of this line of discussion? What is the point of any line of discussion on this site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 How can we expect to work with peaceful Muslims if we have alienated them by lumping them together with violent jihadists? . If a Muslim does not believe in violent jihad, but at the same time believes women should be wrapped in bedsheets and beaten if they get out of line, and that gays should be thrown off buildings, will you still happily work with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 And in neither case do today's mainstream Christians or Muslims condone literal and violent interpretations. They don't? You might have heard of this group called ISIL? Crazy people no Muslims would support, really. Right? https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Agreed. Unfortunately far more Muslims still accept and even demand a literal interpretation. The Bible is such a horribly written, long, self-contradictory mess that it is easier to cherry pick. It's why most 'real Christians' don't actually read it. The Quran on the other hand, is streamlined with a strong central message. It's based on an ass kicking, sex slave owning, warlord. Sure the old Testament has an insecure, genocidal maniac, at the helm, but then along came the new testament and it stars a hippie street preacher. Not exactly the same. Anyway, there are many factors involved in loosening a population's grip on mythology, but I think the better writing and violent central character in the Quran play a role. No...that is your mistake. In first world nations, removed from the cultural aspect you like to blame, Muslim populations still support violence in high numbers. In the US where one might expect a response rate of 2-3% condoning killing for Islam, we see 20% support. Cite?I am looking for some indication that you grasp that generalizing to all-most-many Muslims is discrimination by religion and offends and alienates Canadian Muslims who are/could be our partners in fighting extremism and radicalization at home and abroad. "20%" ... gives us 80% to work with IF their input is welcomed and they are not alienated. Do you understand? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Did you not see the pew research results? The MAJORITY of muslims world wide think that homosexuals should be killed and that apostasy should be a crime.cite? I know, right! 'An eye for an eye' would be an improvement over MAINSTREAM Islam, which lacks the concept of recprocity and treats non-muslim as subhuman. Not to mention, 'an eye for an eye' is probably above the current pope's moral system (see his comments on Charlie Hebdo and punching people). mainstream ... in Canada? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 cite? http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf mainstream ... in Canada? Mainstream globally. Mainstream in Canada? That is harder to tell since Canada has a much higher percentage of liberal muslims than muslim-majority countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf Mainstream globally. Mainstream in Canada? That is harder to tell since Canada has a much higher percentage of liberal muslims than muslim-majority countries. Right, and they weren't even surveyed.This survey seems to represent only Muslim majority countries. It is not a survey of 'Muslims world wide'. And I can't even find the part about, as you claim, 'homosexuals must be killed'. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 They don't? You might have heard of this group called ISIL? Crazy people no Muslims would support, really. Right? https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/ Oh geez ... SAUDI ARABIA !!! The source of Wahabbism, extremism. Supported by the US of course. If you are citing that, you don't have a clue. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Right, and they weren't even surveyed. Who, the Canadians? So because a survey doesn't include one country it becomes invalid? This survey seems to represent only Muslim majority countries. Maybe because that's where the majority of muslims live... It is not a survey of 'Muslims world wide'. Uhh, 39 countries from all over the world isn't world wide enough for you? Do you think they can just walk into every autocratic country like Saudi Arabia or Iran and report on anything that might appear to negatively reflect the country? I could link you to various other polls such as here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm But something tells me that you are a 'progressive' cultural relativist like Ben Affleck and no amount of evidence will convince you to change your baseless beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Cite? I am looking for some indication that you grasp that generalizing to all-most-many Muslims is discrimination by religion and offends and alienates Canadian Muslims who are/could be our partners in fighting extremism and radicalization at home and abroad. "20%" ... gives us 80% to work with IF their input is welcomed and they are not alienated. Do you understand?. Do you understand that 1 in 5 US Muslims condoning murder in defense of their religion isn't small? http://moralcompassblog.com/2013/05/03/pew/ Quilliam is a UK based counter extremism think tank, chaired by Maajid Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist. They ask western Liberals specifically not to take the position you are pushing. In an essay published by CentreForum, Maajid Nawaz says that only liberalism can “shine through the fog” of Islamist extremism and must be actively promoted across communities, cultures and borders. But it warns that fear of causing offence has too often compelled Western liberals to keep quiet, or self-censor, rather than assert their majority position. The essay titled ‘On Blasphemy’ also warns that ignoring Islamist extremism “in the name of respect for difference” will fuel the victimhood narrative http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press-releases/quilliam-chairman-maajid-nawaz-writes-on-blasphemy-with-centreforum/ Quilliam would like liberals of the world to help fight Islamic extremism, by honestly calling out the violence and brutality. Stop harming the cause! Peaceful, progressive Muslims do not want us to sugar coat the defective culture, they want to bring about change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Right, and they weren't even surveyed. Who, the Canadians? So because a survey doesn't include one country it becomes invalid? The PEW study surveyed Islamists in 39 nations with at least 10M Muslim residents. But something tells me that you are a 'progressive' cultural relativist like Ben Affleck and no amount of evidence will convince you to change your baseless beliefs. Former extremist Muslim, Maajid Nawaz, chairs Quilliam, a think tank dedicated to reversing the trend of radicalization. He is specifically asking liberals not to take the position Affleck showcased on Maher's show and that Jacee and Big Guy are promoting on this forum. http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press-releases/quilliam-chairman-maajid-nawaz-writes-on-blasphemy-with-centreforum/ Even the progressive Muslims who are on the front lines fighting against the extreme aspects of their own culture are asking us not to act as apologists for the evil being committed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Who, the Canadians? So because a survey doesn't include one country it becomes invalid? Maybe because that's where the majority of muslims live... Uhh, 39 countries from all over the world isn't world wide enough for you? Do you think they can just walk into every autocratic country like Saudi Arabia or Iran and report on anything that might appear to negatively reflect the country? I could link you to various other polls such as here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm But something tells me that you are a 'progressive' cultural relativist like Ben Affleck and no amount of evidence will convince you to change your baseless beliefs. I think if you are claiming 'these are the views of Muslims world wide', you should have a representative sample. This isn't. It doesn't include Muslims from any western countries who will, as you acknowledge, have more liberal views. In other words, it seems to me that's a survey of the views of more conservative Muslims, not views represenntative of all Muslims. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think if you are claiming 'these are the views of Muslims world wide', you should have a representative sample. This isn't. It doesn't include Muslims from any western countries who will, as you acknowledge, have more liberal views. Yeah, because it's not like we have any idea of the number of muslims by country in order to estimate the percentage of muslims globally with certain views... *sarcasm* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Do you understand that 1 in 5 US Muslims condoning murder in defense of their religion isn't small? http://moralcompassblog.com/2013/05/03/pew/ Quilliam is a UK based counter extremism think tank, chaired by Maajid Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist. They ask western Liberals specifically not to take the position you are pushing. ... Quilliam would like liberals of the world to help fight Islamic extremism, by honestly calling out the violence and brutality. Stop harming the cause! Peaceful, progressive Muslims do not want us to sugar coat the defective culture, they want to bring about change. I'm all for calling out the violence and brutality.I'm opposed to ascribing it to Islam itself and Muslims in general. . Edited January 27, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 What is the point of any line of discussion on this site? The discussions that you lead tend to come to a conclusion, as in: "This is the case - here's a cite - and that is something - here's another site - and this other thing is a thing. Therefore, we should do THIS." The other ones are just doing doughnuts in the parking lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yeah, because it's not like we have any idea of the number of muslims by country in order to estimate the percentage of muslims globally with certain views... *sarcasm* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country You can't generalize those results to western Muslims. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) You can't generalize those results to western Muslims. I can't generalize # of muslims by country to western countries even though western countries are in the list... what? Or are you trying to say that I am generalizing that the type of Islam practices globally represents the type of Islam practices in western countries, which I haven't done? Typical Ben Affleck deflection tactics. If facts are presented to you that you don't like, ignore them, strawman the other person and call the other person names. Edited January 27, 2015 by -1=e^ipi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 The discussions that you lead tend to come to a conclusion, as in: "This is the case - here's a cite - and that is something - here's another site - and this other thing is a thing. Therefore, we should do THIS." Show me one discussion on this site that went this way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Or are you trying to say that I am generalizing that the type of Islam practices globally represents the type of Islam practices in western countries, which I haven't done. Good. Don't. So we still don't know how many Muslims oppose viokent jihad, but we know it's more than 72%. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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