Islamophobia

[Michael Hardner]

Show me one discussion on this site that went this way?

Lots of them do - it's called a call to action.

[Mighty AC]

I'm all for calling out the violence and brutality.

Good then stop defending 1 in 4 as a small number.

I'm opposed to ascribing it to Islam itself and Muslims in general.

Moderate Muslims working to short circuit the radicalization process wish that you wouldn't do this.

[eyeball]

Good then stop defending 1 in 4 as a small number.

It would be nice to see if this metric has grown with time and then overlay that plot line on the time line in which the west has been interfering in the ME, say the last 100 years. I'm betting there would be a really strong correlation.

For all we know 1 in 4 is speaking to a remarkable amount of self-restraint.

[-1=e^ipi]

It would be nice to see if this metric has grown with time and then overlay that plot line on the time line in which the west has been interfering in the ME, say the last 100 years. I'm betting there would be a really strong correlation.

For all we know 1 in 4 is speaking to a remarkable amount of self-restraint.

Try overlaying it with funding from Saudi Arabia as well.

[WIP]

Ya but I doubt they're in church.

And if they are, they're learning to toe the line for the greater good .. of the amoral businessmen who donate money to the church.

.

Some of them are. One that stands out in particular, was a grimy, middle-aged...not too terribly bright...guy I worked with some years ago, who was always doing the Jesus spiel whenever he got a chance. He could turn just about any conversation..whether it's how's the weather or how are the Leafs doing lately, into "have you been saved?" So, obviously he was a pain-in-the-ass for me and most others to try to avoid. I did learn that he was a former full patched member of the Outlaws and after a few years behind bars came out with some bikers-for-Jesus outfit..but he wasn't doing it just to reduce his sentence or try to impress or swindle others. He could convincingly say that you wouldn't be safe around me if I was still an outlaw; and judging from his take on issues, I got the clear impression that he was someone who could only understand morality and live among the civilized as long as he was rigorously following some rule-based system like the evangelical church he became affiliated with in prison.

I know that the exception doesn't prove a rule, but there are some people that are never going to function outside of a correctional facility without being part of some rigid system like a fundamentalist church.

[Mighty AC]

I know that the exception doesn't prove a rule, but there are some people that are never going to function outside of a correctional facility without being part of some rigid system like a fundamentalist church.

Do you think guys like your biker friend truly believe the mysticism aspect of religion? I always wonder if those that find Jesus after a crisis really believe or just need that structure. I imagine most seek out a rigid routine that is perceived as positive. I have known two people that have become obsessed with fitness following personal crises. I think it is part of the same phenomenon.

[jacee]

Try overlaying it with funding from Saudi Arabia as well.

Supported by the US.

.

[eyeball]

I think it is part of the same phenomenon.

It's definitely the same. I've seen it before too. Like the diet, the mysticism wears thin...

Oh look there goes Jenny McCarthy!

Edited January 28, 2015 by eyeball

[jacee]

Good then stop defending 1 in 4 as a small number.

3 in 4 is a larger number and those are the ones we need to seek out and work with to address radicalization. Alienating them with discriminatory broadbrush statements about 'Muslims' and 'Islam' is counterproductive.

Moderate Muslims working to short circuit the radicalization process wish that you wouldn't do this.

You speak for them?

While you also make discriminatory judgements about their religion?

I don't think so.

.

Edited January 28, 2015 by jacee

[Mighty AC]

3 in 4 is a larger number and those are the ones we need to seek out and work with to address radicalization. Alienating them with discriminatory broadbrush statements about 'Muslims' and 'Islam' is counterproductive.

You speak for them?

While you also make discriminatory judgements about their religion?

I don't think so.

Quilliam and moderate Muslim activist, Maajid Nawaz speak for them.

In an essay published by CentreForum, Maajid Nawaz says that only liberalism can “shine through the fog” of Islamist extremism and must be actively promoted across communities, cultures and borders.

But it warns that fear of causing offence has too often compelled Western liberals to keep quiet, or self-censor, rather than assert their majority position.

The essay titled ‘On Blasphemy’ also warns that ignoring Islamist extremism “in the name of respect for difference” will fuel the victimhood narrative

http://www.quilliamf...th-centreforum/

This view, while embracing moral relativity, reduces other cultures to lazy, romanticised and static cliches. Far worse, it ends up not just tolerating but actively promoting illiberal practices in the name of assumed cultural authenticity, even where such promoted practices are in fact ahistoric, inauthentic neo-fundamentalisms.

http://www.centreforum.org/assets/pubs/on-blasphemy.pdf

[eyeball]

But it warns that fear of causing offence has too often compelled Western liberals to keep quiet, or self-censor, rather than assert their majority position.

What do Muslims make of the divisions and acrimony that have grown between left wingers and right wingers in the west over all this? As far as keeping quiet and self-censoring I'm a little choked too - at how tepid and cowardly left-wing politicians are about addressing the root causes the west has contributed to this godawful mess. And now you tell me moderate Muslims are tepid about this too?

Oh well, maybe shutting up isn't such a bad idea. Our governments are all going to be coming out with inflammatory/radicalizing language laws soon anyway so...might as well get used to it.

Hey look, there goes an issue! Now the stupid lefties want to teach no means no to kids when they're in school? Its outrageous!

[drummindiver]

delete

Edited February 1, 2015 by drummindiver

[Big Guy]

I have been very disappointed with the racism, bigotry and misogyny that appears on these anonymous public access bulletin boards. The explanation seems to be that people with those views are unable to or afraid to express those opinions in public because of the expected reaction and the fear of being held accountable for those views.

What else I find disappointing is that the young casual observer might assume that the views on these boards represent the same percentage of racists et al in our society. They do not.

From what I have seen here and other boards is that the bigots, racists and misogynists tend to be young and male. From their use of language and apparent lack of experience and maturity it also appears that most are just beginning careers. I really fell sorry for them. They really believe what they post. The cannot see that their attitude will be like a stone around their necks for the rest of their lives. It will impact any career which deals with people, guaranteeing an inability to understand minorities. It will impact personal relationships, child rearing and extended family unity. Worst of all, they are denying themselves the experience and learn from those who are different from us.

To assign blame based on gender, colour, culture or religion keeps one from investigating the root cause of a problem so that the problem will be very difficult to resolve.

It is not illegal to be a racist, bigot or misogynist.

I have no anger at those who seek simple solutions to very complex problems.

They are already paying the price. I wish them well.

[WIP]

Do you think guys like your biker friend truly believe the mysticism aspect of religion? I always wonder if those that find Jesus after a crisis really believe or just need that structure. I imagine most seek out a rigid routine that is perceived as positive. I have known two people that have become obsessed with fitness following personal crises. I think it is part of the same phenomenon.

I haven't seen him for some time now, so I can't claim him as a friend. But, when I got to know him, I took him for a simple guy who wants simple answers, and would get agitated if anyone tried to explain to him that the world is not 6000 years old, and Adam and Eve didn't ride dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden. What stood out to me, was that every issue, every decision had to be based on some Biblical rule...and if he didn't know what the answer was, he would go to his trusted sources for the right answer. The point I was trying to make was that this guy didn't seem to have much of a capacity for introspection or have that inner voice telling him right from wrong. Without a clear set of rules, people like that can end up causing all kinds of harm if they just follow their impulses.

[WIP]

I can understand why fundamentalist Christians are adamantly opposed to Islam....it's not their brand, and they're all about brand loyalty. But, the atheist Islamophobes and same goes for their criticisms of Christian theology also....always will say that they don't believe in any supernatural forces and people twist religious claims and beliefs to suit their own needs and purposes; and yet here we have some self-proclaimed atheists who believe that Muslims have to follow some Quranic verse like brainwashed Stepford Wives, and make the identical claims about Christianity....though usually saying it is not quite as harmful as Islam.

Don't atheists see the irony here, by claiming that two religious texts have the power to override the desires and intentions of its adherents?

[Mighty AC]

Don't atheists see the irony here, by claiming that two religious texts have the power to override the desires and intentions of its adherents?

The framework derived from scripture does not have to override the desires and intentions of its adherents. However, for many like the biker you described two posts ago, 'every issue, every decision has to be based on some Biblical rule.' You painted that in a positive light, but what what if his interpretations of the rules tell him to kill gays, apostates, cheating wives or abortion doctors? Do the adherents have to do these things? No. So why do they? I think most really believe the god stories and that grants them power. For most the religion is given its power through indoctrination at a young age, prior to the development of critical thinking skills. However, a small fraction seem to find it when looking for a crutch.

Also, we can tally the atrocities committed in the name of various gods, make value judgments and debate the causes. That's what is happening here.

[jacee]

Let's agree that " Islamist extremism " is the problem to be addressed.

Not Islam in general.

Not Muslims in general.

.

[Mighty AC]

Let's agree that " Islamist extremism " is the problem to be addressed.

Not Islam in general.

Not Muslims in general.

Agreed. However, let's not ignore the role religion plays and the significant support that exists for violence.

[jacee]

Agreed. However, let's not ignore the role religion plays and the significant support that exists for violence.

Religious extremism and violence sucks.

Most Muslims agree.

Maajid Nawaz agrees.

.

Edited January 29, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

Yep, it sucks every bit as badly as economic extremism, political extremism, imperial extremism.

Actually I think imperial extremism is the worst, especially when democracies engage in it. It devastates expectations and is unparalleled in it's ability to destroy hope and faith in humanity. An awful number of people also get really badly injured and killed along the way.

Edited January 29, 2015 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

Yep, it sucks every bit as badly as economic extremism, political extremism, imperial extremism.

And the first step is to often dehumanize the other size, to portray them as "different", so as to get the population ready to commit violence against them.

[Big Guy]

We have experts in this field amongst us. Ask a Priest, Rabbi, Reverend etc. who have studied religions through the divinity courses, what is their view of Islam and the terrorism attributed to the Koran. Seek out the local Imam and ask him what he thinks. These are people who know what they are talking about and not making assumptions that play into their prejudices.

[freekundli]

Thank you for a very interesting response.

Thanks for posting interesting thread here.