Transgender operations insurable? Beyond Hilarious

[cybercoma]

What's worse is that you deny the treatment by denying the established research and science, which is really no better than young earth creationists saying there's no such thing as evolution and that man walked with dinosaurs. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not convincing anyone of it because it's laughably wrong and antithetical to established health sciences.

[TimG]

A drug addict will be killed by the substances they put into their body or the mental state they put themselves in.

Maybe. Maybe not. There are a lot of functioning addicts in society today that have minimal health issues associated with their addiction.

A sex change won't kill a transgendered person that chooses to go that route. In fact, it will make their life significantly better.

Really? Better? Can you show this objectively? Can you demonstrate that transgender people are not simply seeking the change because they have an unhealthy obsession with their body image? Can you demonstrate that the feelings of well being are materially different from the feelings someone gets after a boob job or a tummy tuck? Or are you just making this argument up because you want to rationalize what you want to believe?

I don't think you can. You have chosen to believe that transgender people have some special affliction because that is what your ideological beliefs require you to believe. I see gender disphoria as just one of many unhealthy obsessions that humans can fall into.

Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG

[Black Dog]

Maybe. Maybe not. There are a lot of functioning addicts in society today that have minimal health issues associated with their addiction.

Just as there are lots of trans people who don't want sex reassignment surgery and who cope with their gender dysphoria in other ways.

Really? Better? Can you show this objectively? Can you demonstrate that transgender people are not simply seeking the change because they have an unhealthy obsession with their body image?

It's been pointed out to you before that there can be physiological components to gender dysphoria such as hormonal levels in utero. You always ignore that, though, clinging to the idea that it's just all in their heads.

Can you demonstrate that the feelings of well being are materially different from the feelings someone gets after a boob job or a tummy tuck?

Here's an idea: why don't you talk to actual trans people about their experiences.

Also: I take it you are as opposed to any cosmetic surgery as you are to sex changes?

I don't think you can. You have chosen to believe that transgender people have some special affliction because that is what your ideological beliefs require you to believe.

Personally, I know trans people, some of whom have undergone sex reassignment, some of whom have not for various reasons. I find your cavalier dismissal of their issues based on your own ignorance and whatever personal experiences with addiction you are choosing to project onto them to be quite sad, actually.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Black Dog

[TimG]

Just as there are lots of trans people who don't want sex reassignment surgery and who cope with their gender dysphoria in other ways.

And that is what they should do. Did you notice above I said that society needs to learn to be more tolerant of transvestites to reduce the pressure on people to pursue invasive surgery?

It's been pointed out to you before that there can be physiological components to gender dysphoria such as hormonal levels in utero.

It has been shown that addicts are physiologically different from non-addicts. That does not mean they have a reason to use drugs.

Also: I take it you are as opposed to any cosmetic surgery as you are to sex changes?

I am opposed to any medical professional recommending or facilitating cosmetic surgery to children. i.e. doctors should not be recommending that teen aged girls get boob jobs nor should they be putting teens on hormones to delay puberty "in case" they want a sex change. The professionals first and primary objective should be to help people to accept the body they have. Sex changes represent failure.

Adults can do whatever they want. I am also not that bothered by it being funded by healthcare insurance.

Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG

[sharkman]

Because I'd place responsibility for deciding what's appropriate treatment in the hands of trained professionals.

Real nonsense would be leaving things like this up to laymen who place greater emphasis on things like religion and politics instead of pertinent knowledge.

Unless, of course, the trained professionals happen to disagree with your view on a given issue.

[TimG]

What's worse is that you deny the treatment by denying the established research and science

We are talking psychology - not science. The field is constantly swept up by fads that turn out to be bad ideas. You also appeal to "experts" without any specifics. What are the caveats, what are uncertainties? I would be surprised if there were no experts that agreed with my views (but they would likely be more diplomatic because of the political correctness that surrounds this issue). Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG

[Black Dog]

And that is what they should do. Did you notice above I said that society needs to learn to be more tolerant of transvestites to reduce the pressure on people to pursue invasive surgery?

If it's a mental health issue, why in god's name would more acceptance for transvestites make a difference? It wouldn't. In any case the point here is that every case is different and no one in their right mind would suggest a one-size-fits all approach would be the most effective.

It has been shown that addicts are physiologically different from non-addicts. That does not mean they have a reason to use drugs.

This is akin to saying: this person has a blood clot in their brain, but that's no reason to have a stroke.

The point, since you seem unable to see it, is that if there's a physiological component, then any treatment that focuses solely on mental health is unlikely to be effective.

I am opposed to any medical professional recommending or facilitating cosmetic surgery to children. i.e. doctors should not be recommending that teen aged girls get boob jobs nor should they be putting teens on hormones to delay puberty "in case" they want a sex change. The professionals first and primary objective should be to help people to accept the body they have. Sex changes represent failure.

Adults can do whatever they want. I am also not that bothered by it being funded by healthcare insurance.

The first and primary objective should be the overall well-being of the individual in question through whatever treatment is necessary to achieve that end.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Black Dog

[eyeball]

You mean trained professionals like the ones that brought us electro-shock therapy, lobotomies, euthanasia and recovered memory syndrome?

No the trained professionals who blew the whistle on these sorts of procedures. Doing so allowed them to recruit public support for change.

The general public has a legitimate right to question the procedures recommended by professionals and in some cases, decide that the recommended treatments are ethically wrong.

Fair enough, but I would still expect the public's recommendations to be investigated, tested and vetted by professionals. Edited December 18, 2014 by eyeball

[TimG]

The point, since you seem unable to see it, is that if there's a physiological component, then any treatment that focuses solely on mental health is unlikely to be effective.

So what? Almost every mental health issue has a biological component. The biological link does not mean that a biological solution is required. e.g. A woman's breast size if determined by her physiology. She can either learn to accept the breasts that she has or see surgical intervention to give her the breasts she wants. It is generally accepted that is irresponsible/unethical to tell children that they should consider breast enhancement. I am saying it should be the same when it comes to sex change operations.

Serious question: can you provide any examples of where psychotherapy proved to be an actually effective treatment for gender dysphoria?

It is a tautology since "gender dysphoria" is the label for people with problems dealing with a perceived mismatch between biological sex and gender. People with a perceived mismatch but don't have problems don't get the label.

[Black Dog]

So what? Almost every mental health issue has a biological component. The biological link does not mean that a biological solution is required.

It doesn't mean a psychological solution would work either. Ruling out an entire avenue of treatment because you feel icky about it is simply irresponsible.

e.g. A woman's breast size if determined by her physiology. She can either learn to accept the breasts that she has or see surgical intervention to give her the breasts she wants. It is generally accepted that is irresponsible/unethical to tell children that they should consider breast enhancement. I am saying it should be the same when it comes to sex change operations.

This is an argument for making breast enhancements harder to get, not for making sex changes even less accessible.

It is a tautology since "gender dysphoria" is the label for people with problems dealing with a perceived mismatch between biological sex and gender. People with a perceived mismatch but don't have problems don't get the label.

That's a dodge. I'm asking for examples of where someone went from being gender dysphoric to happy with their body without any sort of physical intervention.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Black Dog

[TimG]

It doesn't mean a psychological solution would work either. Ruling out an entire avenue of treatment because you feel icky about it is simply irresponsible.

I am ruling it out because it is an extremely invasive procedure that should only be considered as a last resort. The problem that concerns me are so called "professionals" which talk about putting kids on hormones to delay puberty "in case" they want a sex change. This example shows the procedure is seen as routine by some so called "professionals".

That's a dodge. I'm asking for examples of where someone went from being gender dysphoric to happy with their body without any sort of physical intervention.

It is still a circular argument. If people did not have the option of sex changes they might not obsess over it but since the option is there they obsess over it and convince themselves they will never be happy unless they get it. Are you really arguing that these people would be doomed to be miserable if we lived in a world where sex changes were not a viable option? Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG

[Black Dog]

I am ruling it out because it is an extremely invasive procedure that should only be considered as a last resort.

Which indeed, it generally is.

The problem that concerns me are so called "professionals" which talk about putting kids on hormones to delay puberty "in case" they want a sex change. This example shows the procedure is seen as routine by some so called "professionals".

Do you have actual data for that or just anecdotes ripped from the headlines?

It is still a circular argument. If people did not have the option of sex changes they might not obsess over it but since the option is there they obsess over it and convince themselves they will never be happy unless they get it. Are you really arguing that these people would be doomed to be miserable if we lived in a world where sex changes were not a viable option?

Yes because I apparently understand the nature of this condition better than you, given your reduction of it to "obsessing over sex changes".

Edited December 18, 2014 by Black Dog

[Bob Macadoo]

I would guess reconstructive cosmetic surgery for burned children or those suffering from a cleft pallet should suck it up as it isn't a neccesity and is just a psychological affect that can be overcome by psychotherapy.

[WestCoastRunner]

My beef is paying for this surgey when other more commonly needed surgery isn't paid for or, in your country, the cues are long.

You are not paying for this surgery! What is your beef?

[eyeball]

I would guess reconstructive cosmetic surgery for burned children or those suffering from a cleft pallet should suck it up as it isn't a neccesity and is just a psychological affect that can be overcome by psychotherapy.

Likewise I guess for the women who get tummy tucks to provide the material "necessary" for rebuilding breasts following a mastectomy.

[jbg]

That's a dodge. I'm asking for examples of where someone went from being gender dysphoric to happy with their body without any sort of physical intervention.

I'd like to know how their mental health and functioning were after the gender assignment operation. I'd love their to be a happy ending but I suspect it's not clear-cut.

[jbg]

You are not paying for this surgery! What is your beef?

Instant replay? See below exchange:

Read the opening post. The order was Andrew Cuomo's and he's the governor of New York. Sure I am paying.

My apologies.

[cybercoma]

As Alcorn explained in her suicide note, she felt "like a girl trapped in a boy's body" ever since age four. After a decade of doing her best to fit in and "do traditionally 'boyish' things," Alcorn wrote, "I learned what transgender meant and cried of happiness. After 10 years of confusion I finally understood who I was. I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/read-17yearold-trans-girls-heartbreaking-suicide-note-20141230#ixzz3NPykV27v
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

"Beyond hilarious," eh?

[GostHacked]

No.

Gender reassignment is not cosmetic.

.

I'll try and tackle this with some reasoning. If it changes your looks, then yes it is cosmetic. A boob job is cosmetic, right? Penis enlargement is cosmetic, right? Changing your gender only changes it on the outside. A male will still be XY after gender reassignment. A woman will still be YY after a gender assignment. Changing my gender to female won't allow me to get pregnant.

I know there is the argument of sex vrs gender. But I don't really buy it.

[cybercoma]

Being disfigured in a fire and having reconstructive surgery done is cosmetic too. Having a mastectomy then having breasts reconstructed is also cosmetic. Bariatric surgery is also cosmetic.

Cosmetic surgery doesn't mean unnecessary and it doesn't mean that it won't greatly improve someone's quality of life.

[TimG]

Being disfigured in a fire and having reconstructive surgery done is cosmetic too. Having a mastectomy then having breasts reconstructed is also cosmetic.

Repairing injuries caused by accidents or disease cannot be compared to deliberate disfiguration.

Cosmetic surgery doesn't mean unnecessary and it doesn't mean that it won't greatly improve someone's quality of life.

I am sure many women who get breast implants report a higher quality of life. That does not mean anyone with any sense believes they were necessary for the woman to enjoy life. In fact, many would suggest a woman who feels compelled to get breast implants has an unhealthy obession with body image. Edited December 30, 2014 by TimG

[guyser]

I am sure many women who get breast implants report a higher quality of life. That does not mean anyone with any sense believes they were necessary for the woman to enjoy life. In fact, many would suggest a woman who feels compelled to get breast implants has an unhealthy obession with body image.

Read: Men who have no ***king clue.

Are there any woman living under the rock with you? Ever?

I serioulsy doubt it with comments like that.

[Big Guy]

I find it fascinating and disappointing when someone expresses an opinion based on "how they would feel" or "they are wrong to feel that way". They put themselves into another's role and assume that is the proper behaviour.

Perception is reality.

What you believe is happening to you is what is really happening to you as far as your body is concerned. If you believe you are in danger of dying then your body reacts as if you are in danger of dying. If you think that you should have a sex change or it will not be worth living then you kill yourself if denied one. If you believe that a person coming towards you is intent on killing you then you react as if the person coming towards you intends to kill you.

Perception is reality.

Unfortunately, some people believe that what they believe and how they think is the same for everybody (or should be the same for everybody). That, unfortunately, then becomes their reality and they are unable to understand the actions of others.

[TimG]

What you believe is happening to you is what is really happening to you as far as your body is concerned. If you believe you are in danger of dying then your body reacts as if you are in danger of dying.

People can convince themselves of many ridiculous things. The question at hand is how society should react to people who believe ridiculous things. If a man walked into a psychiatrists office and claimed his left hand was plotting against him and he wanted it removed I would expect the psychiatrist to do whatever he could to redirect the man's obsession in a less destructive way. Under no conditions would a competent psychiatrist recommend the removal of the man's hand simply because he believed his life would be better if it was removed. Yet when it comes to sex changes we are supposed to treat the exact same type of self mutilation as a rational treatment for what is clearly a mental illness? It does not make sense. Edited December 31, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

People can convince themselves of many ridiculous things. The question at hand is how society should react to people who believe ridiculous things. If a man walked into a psychiatrists office and claimed his left hand was plotting against him and he wanted it removed I would expect the psychiatrist to do whatever he could to redirect the man's obsession in a less destructive way. Under no conditions would a competent psychiatrist recommend the removal of the man's hand simply because he believed his life would be better if it was removed. Yet when it comes to sex changes we are supposed to treat the exact same type of self mutilation as a rational treatment for what is clearly a mental illness? It does not make sense.

It is a physiological mental condition or difference, not a mental illness.

transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan