cybercoma Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Give it up Tim, you will never ever get your head around this in a million years. Every. Time. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 It's not anyone's responsibility to explain this stuff to TimG. The information is out there, should he choose to learn about it. Psychologists, doctors, and transgendered folks have all written extensively about the topic. If he wanted to learn and understand, there is all kinds of resources out there. It's nobody's responsibility to educate him or change his mind. There's only so many times you can tell him that he's wrong before you're simply pissing in the wind. Quote
TimG Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Psychologists, doctors, and transgendered folks have all written extensively about the topic. If he wanted to learn and understand, there is all kinds of resources out there.People (including psychologists) can rationalize whatever garbage they want to believe. That does not make reasonable. Nor does it turn it into a "truth" which others should be compelled to believe. I also don't believe the professionals are a united as you would like to claim but I suspect, like anyone else who says things that upset the puritans of political correctness, that they don't advertise it. Edited December 16, 2014 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 People (including psychologists) can rationalize whatever garbage they want to believe Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Quote
TimG Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?I am stating my opinion and am under no illusions that it is shared by everyone. All I am I saying is based on my experience with recovering addicts I think it is wrong headed to enable people who have somehow convinced themselves that mutilating themselves is a solution to anything. If something has to change then it should be society should be more tolerant towards transvestites to lessen the pressure to conform on people with gender identity issues. Edited December 16, 2014 by TimG Quote
Bryan Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 People (including psychologists) can rationalize whatever garbage they want to believe. There is a very good reason why they do it, it makes them money. Quote
Bryan Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 No. Gender reassignment is not cosmetic. . It is nothing but. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 If one believes that "transgender" can be "repaired" so the individual is now happy with his/her gender then one must also believe that being "gay" is also a condition that can be "fixed" so the person becomes "normal". How so ? Transgender people want to change their gender, but gay people don't generally want to change their preference. They haven't figured out how to change someone's sexual preference anyway. Those of you who don't want to acknowledge that transgender is a real thing, who will respond to the weight of the health professionals' approach, the science, and the social acceptance with "I believe" or "they're doing it for the money" are just rationalizing your personal feelings over reality, IMO. There are examples of doing this in other areas, but your viewpoint will just appear to be more and more peripheral as time goes on - that's all you can say about it. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Boges Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Quick question. If Gender is different than sex, then why is gender re-assignment needed? It's not gender re-assignemnt it's sex re-assignment. Edited December 16, 2014 by Boges Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Quick question. If Gender is different than sex, then why is gender re-assignment needed? It's not gender re-assignemnt it's sex re-assignment. This seems right. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
TimG Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 This seems right.Exactly. It is logically inconsistent to claim that gender is different from biological sex but then insist that it is 'medically necessary' to change one's biological sex to match one's gender. If the former if true the later is a cosmetic choice. If the latter is true then one is saying that having a gender different from sex is a defect in need of correction. Quote
Big Guy Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Personally, I seek out opinions that are opposed to mine. The opposing arguments presented can be evaluated to either reinforce my original opinion or encourage more research on my part. I completely disagree with TimG but do appreciate his/her sharing of the reasons why he/she holds those opinions. That is the major reason that I participate on these boards. No one ever convinces another to change their views but can use an opposing point of view and the reasons for that opposing view as a reinforcement of their own. I would never criticize a poster for their legitimate views. It is the trollers, baiters, agitators and drive by cheap shot artists that tend to create clutter that slows down the process. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted December 17, 2014 Author Report Posted December 17, 2014 Canada allows dog-person marriage now, don't we?? I was banned from Babble for advocating just that. In either 2004 or 2005 in response to Canada's gay marriage debate, I said that the proposals didn't go far enough. I proposed that any group of four mammals be allowed to marry, as long as one of them was a human over the age of 14. I posted this under the name "LoveBillyGoat." I was banned within minutes for what I still thinkk is a sensible proposal. I hope that Canada now allows people to marry their dogs, but under Harper's fascist Conservative government I don't hold out much hope. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
WestCoastRunner Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Not worth arguing about. Insurance companies respond to social expectations. The issue here are not the insurance companies but the social expectations. I think it misguided to place so much emphasis on surgical solutions and not enough on making society less hostile for adults with gender disphoria. One solution to making society less hostile to adults with gender dysphoria is for individuals to accept the fact that surgical solutions are options for some people. Especially considering the rigorous tests/pattern of living etc they have to undertake prior to surgery. What business is it of yours to cast judgement on what type of surgery a person desires? Would you care if a woman wanted breast implants or a man wanted penile implant surgery. Edited December 17, 2014 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Guest Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 I was banned from Babble for advocating just that. In either 2004 or 2005 in response to Canada's gay marriage debate, I said that the proposals didn't go far enough. I proposed that any group of four mammals be allowed to marry, as long as one of them was a human over the age of 14. I posted this under the name "LoveBillyGoat." I was banned within minutes for what I still thinkk is a sensible proposal. I hope that Canada now allows people to marry their dogs, but under Harper's fascist Conservative government I don't hold out much hope. Babble sounds like such a dull place... Quote
jbg Posted December 17, 2014 Author Report Posted December 17, 2014 Whenever there is progress in any social issue, there is always a generation stuck on how things were better in the old days when the outsiders knew their place.I want there to be progress, but real progress, not just what feels good. Yep, conservatism is like rust, it never sleeps.No attribution to fellow Canadian Neil Young? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 I was banned from Babble for advocating just that. In either 2004 or 2005 in response to Canada's gay marriage debate, I said that the proposals didn't go far enough. I proposed that any group of four mammals be allowed to marry, as long as one of them was a human over the age of 14. I posted this under the name "LoveBillyGoat." I was banned within minutes for what I still thinkk is a sensible proposal. I hope that Canada now allows people to marry their dogs, but under Harper's fascist Conservative government I don't hold out much hope. Banned for trolling.... What a shocker.... Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Exactly. It is logically inconsistent to claim that gender is different from biological sex but then insist that it is 'medically necessary' to change one's biological sex to match one's gender. If the former if true the later is a cosmetic choice. If the latter is true then one is saying that having a gender different from sex is a defect in need of correction. Tim, is changing your sex/gender whatever something you believe the government should outlaw? Does it disgust you or are you simply outraged at it being publicly funded? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WestCoastRunner Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Tim, is changing your sex/gender whatever something you believe the government should outlaw? Does it disgust you or are you simply outraged at it being publicly funded? This is what I am trying to figure out. What exactly is his beef with individuals choosing their path in life? It really is none of his business. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
jbg Posted December 17, 2014 Author Report Posted December 17, 2014 Babble sounds like such a dull place...They weren't ready to adopt beastiality back in 2004 or 2005. Maybe by now they are. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted December 17, 2014 Author Report Posted December 17, 2014 This is what I am trying to figure out. What exactly is his beef with individuals choosing their path in life? It really is none of his business.My beef is paying for this surgey when other more commonly needed surgery isn't paid for or, in your country, the cues are long. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Tim, is changing your sex/gender whatever something you believe the government should outlaw? Does it disgust you or are you simply outraged at it being publicly funded?It is cosmetic surgery and should be funded in situations when cosmetic surgery is funded. i.e. there should be no difference between someone wanting breast implants or a tummy tuck and someone wanting a sex change. To be honest I did not really care about this issue (adults being free to do what they want etc) until I heard stories of young kids being put on hormones just "in case" they wanted a sex change. At that point it was clear that the some people have taken this issue way to far and it is necessary to step back and ask what is reasonable for society sanction when it comes to people struggling with mental health problems. I think that recommending sex changes to struggling people is just wrong. Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 The issue of insurance paying for a prescribed sex change or a change following a doctor(s) consultation doesn't affect, bug or mpact me in any way I can see worrying about. The thought of the public weighing in on what's right or proper from a mental health perspective will however definitely galvanize me. The thought of people like yourself having any influence on what society should or shouldn't sanction in the area of mental health is a red line. I stand opposed. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) The thought of people like yourself having any influence on what society should or shouldn't sanction in the area of mental health is a red line."Mental health" is more an art than a science. Things get done because they are fads until enough damaged has been caused to convince people it was a bad idea. Electro-shock therapy is one example that comes to mind. Or lobotomies. What I find tiresome are people who make pronouncements about what "professionals" believe without any actual knowledge of the caveats and uncertainties that would go along with any such professional opinion. In most cases when people appeal what "experts" believe they are are only repeating the opinion of vocal activists as opposed to the the silent majority which would often takes a much more nuanced view. Edited December 17, 2014 by TimG Quote
jacee Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 My beef is paying for this surgey when other more commonly needed surgery isn't paid for or, in your country, the cues are long. You're not paying ... or voting here jbg. You have no grounds for a "beef" in this. . Quote
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