First Nations Issues

[eyeball]

They don't have to speak out against their own people. Working together to remove corrupt leaders is not an embarrassing undertaking. It shows some integrity and some responsibility.

So why isn't Ottawa working with them to root out corruption? It looks like Ottawa is only really interested in naming and shaming individuals while threatening collective punishment by with-holding funds to the whole band.

[Accountability Now]

Right above this one.

Apparently it still is hard for you. They dont pay income tax ON INCOME MADE on reserve. PLenty of poeple live on reserve but work off it and pay tax.

The entire point I was making was that living on reserve makes them ELIGIBLE for tax exemptions which is attractive to some. The reality is that not all can find work on the reserve and are thus forced to work off reserve and pay taxes or become unemployed (which is a high number in itself). The opportunity to be tax exempt is a benefit of staying on the reserve....plain and simple.

Well, this is not what you wrote. My point still stands.

How does your point stand? You said its fraud and its not. Like I said, its not ethical and its playing the system but it does happen.

Some may be paying it indirectly, many arent. Many landlords buy a house/apt bldg , rent it out but have shortfalls in costs each and every year. (taxable situation) The value of same goes up and thats where the money lies.

What are you taking about? Regardless of how much money a landlord makes (and I'm sure that a vast majority make a good amount of it rather than shortfalls as you suggest), they are still required to pay property tax. There is no escaping that one. So any person renting a place IS indirectly paying for that property tax.

Income tax in many cases.

Sales tax in many cases.

Already explained to boot !

No...GST is not paid on the reserve. Its not even charged if the item is bought off reserve and delviered to the reserve. There are also a nubmer of sales tax exemptions for items bought off reserve. I don't know about provincial tax as we don't have it for anyone in Alberta.

As for income tax, they only pay it if they can't find work on the reserve and are in fact willing to work off reserve. Again...my whole point is that the incentive to live on the reserve is the eligibiltiy for tax exemptions. Added to this is the incentive to not pay for education or health care. If you would have been paying attention from the start, you would have seen where I said that these so called benefits aren't worth the other crap they have to put up with but they do.

[Accountability Now]

The "ride" wasn't meant to last forever ... "meant" by whom?

He said by both sides...meaning Aboriginal people and the government.

Very interesting to hear this coming from someone who is aboriginal.

[Argus]

If the natives on the reserve were interested in accountability and where the money is going, why so much outrage when the government demands the books to be opened?

Where is the outrage coming from, though, the ordinary native on reserve or the chiefs and band counsellors?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Argus

[Keepitsimple]

Where is the outrage coming from, though, the ordinary native on reserve or the chiefs and bands?

It would be good journalism if some lazy-assed reporters went to these reservations and asked the residents......like maybe the CBC? I won't hold my breath.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Argus]

Openly and publicly speaking truth to power always exposes the speaker to trouble and sometimes even danger.

Want your house fixed? Better be in good with the chief. If you're always complaining about him and what he's doing well "Sorry, no money available."

Want a job, or want your son to get a job? Better not be on the chief's bad boy list or "Sorry, nothing available".

[Argus]

The government designed the reserve system of governance, not the people who are actually governed by it. It's not a lack of power - Ottawa doesn't have the will to change anything. Opening the books the way Harper is proposing is far more about optics and reaffirming his base of support's confirmation biases which explains why people don't by it.

I'm sure there's some of that, but it also can help the band learn just how much their chief and councilors are taking for themselves. That puts pressure on the latter, especially when everyone else is shivering in the dark.

[Argus]

The "ride" wasn't meant to last forever ... "meant" by whom?

Government?

Aboriginal people?

What's the time limit on the treaties?

.

The problem with the treaties is they never envisaged a time where natives could become full and equal citizens with the same educational and job opportunities as anyone else. That time has come. There is no longer any purpose in keeping natives on reserves, especially reserves which are fundamentally un-economic, and will never provide them with sufficient job opportunities to have meaningful, self-supporting lives.

[Argus]

It would be good journalism if some lazy-assed reporters went to these reservations and asked the residents......like maybe the CBC? I won't hold my breath.

Again, though, you probably have a situation on some of these reserves where you better not be caught speaking out against the people in charge or you and your family will be made to suffer. So it would indeed take some effort.

[Smallc]

To be tax exempt as an aboriginal, you don't have to live on reserve. You simply have to work there.

[jacee]

He said by both sides...meaning Aboriginal people and the government.

Very interesting to hear this coming from someone who is aboriginal.

If he is.

[Smallc]

As for income tax, they only pay it if they can't find work on the reserve and are in fact willing to work off reserve. Again...my whole point is that the incentive to live on the reserve is the eligibiltiy for tax exemptions. Added to this is the incentive to not pay for education or health care. If you would have been paying attention from the start, you would have seen where I said that these so called benefits aren't worth the other crap they have to put up with but they do.

Add to that work done for on reserve companies. No tax then either.

[Smallc]

If he is.

Why, because he doesn't take the standard line?

[guyser]

Please stop with the personal attacks.

The second you have an ounce of intergrity, I will.

Deal?

[guyser]

The entire point I was making was that living on reserve makes them ELIGIBLE for tax exemptions which is attractive to some. The reality is that not all can find work on the reserve and are thus forced to work off reserve and pay taxes or become unemployed (which is a high number in itself). The opportunity to be tax exempt is a benefit of staying on the reserve....plain and simple.

That is a convoluted post. Not to mention finally clears up the misnomers. They work, on rez, pay no income tax on money earned. Work off Rez, pay taxes like anyone else. Live on/off Rez, get some minor advantages for taxation purposes, but NOT income tax.

How does your point stand? You said its fraud and its not. Like I said, its not ethical and its playing the system but it does happen.

Oh facepalm.

You said they offered to buy the car for you. They were buying it and selling it to you. It means you would have to pay the tax. Got it?

What are you taking about?

Im getting that you cant or wont follow along.

Regardless of how much money a landlord makes (and I'm sure that a vast majority make a good amount of it rather than shortfalls as you suggest), they are still required to pay property tax.

Has anyone said otherwise? Nope !

There is no escaping that one. So any person renting a place IS indirectly paying for that property tax.

If thats the standard, then any FN buying an ice cream cone and forgets his Status card, he pays tax, and that tax means he/she 'IS indirectly paying for that property healthcare tax.'

As for income tax, they only pay it if they can't find work on the reserve and are in fact willing to work off reserve.

You see, here is what bogs things down. Whats with the "if they cant find ..." ? Do you mean if they elect NOT to work on the reserve or does that apply if they can get $30 an hour off Rez, theyll turn it down for $10 on Rez work? And what happens to those with two jobs, 1 off 1 on?

Again...my whole point is that the incentive to live on the reserve is the eligibiltiy for tax exemptions. Added to this is the incentive to not pay for education or health care.

SO tell us, who of those in school pay taxes....anywhere in Canada? Students have an exemption , some get the credit but they are not paying taxes like anyone else working full time. (assuming the hours are low for student) Along the same lines they arent paying any healthtax but do pay sales taxes which are used for healthcare.

If you would have been paying attention from the start,

Dont put absolutes down when you are vague with details then.

Curious though, when you talk of education, are you being exclusive to elementary and high school, or higher education?

[Moonbox]

Where is the outrage coming from, though, the ordinary native on reserve or the chiefs and band counsellors?

Good question. We can, however, probably conclude that the lack of interest/action on the part of the ordinary natives demonstrates that they're either against the government on this, or they just have their heads buried so deep in the sand that they don't care.

[TheAboriginalMan]

This is truly the sad part as its simply not true.

I can't see how either side thought that the treaties would or could last forever. I always believed the British were using the treaties with the ultimate hope of assimilation but that hasn't happened either.

Fair enough. I can see how the First Nations wouldn't trust the government but I do think they have an opportunity to set themselves up if they do it right. The kicker is that by doing it right, it would involve some sort of end game which is how the government would sell it on the people of Canada.

I deal with a variety of first nations people daily from many different reservations throughout the prairies and west coast. Though they may not admit it or even know themselves to that extend but the mindset is accurate. There are many homely first nations people who have a degraded sense of self worth they don't realize their potential. Most elders who have lived an entire life of poverty have come to this conclusion eventually and accept it as inevitable. These are they people who will be ushering the nest generation of first nations people. I would just like all information to be available to all first nations people if they decide they want to take the step. Not more money, there's enough money in the reserves to pave the damned streets gold.

It never happened yet. Plato did say that we should adopt a system that absolutely allows for change he advised against adopting a system that boxes ideas and this is just one side effect of that.

Another PR ballet. "Marijuana is bad for you!!!" - Harper Government. It's such a hollow dry path these things. It's getting incredibly old. Something does have to be done but for now we will do what we do best and wait till the federal government and the bands reach an impasse that does actually physically assist the first nations people. I would like to see an online guide for all first nations people to see regarding their band and what funding, how much was given for what purpose. That ought to create some tension to pressure the first nations people of every reserve to pressure their bands and explode out of the poverty and into the world... I can dream but this seems like a more reliable approach. I think we all should be made aware of those types of things. Funny I literally just made that up.

[TheAboriginalMan]

Some chiefs are hereditary and some are elected, within a reserve system of government that is imposed on them and overseen by Ottawa.

Look around the world at peoples that are struggling to overcome generations of colonial abuse, most still face suspicion and criticism by the people they're struggling to get out from under and it's no different here. Moderate voices are often very heard to hear over the din. This is even more so in a small isolated community where there's usually an us vs the outsiders dynamic to issues where most people will usually rally around their own.

Openly and publicly speaking truth to power always exposes the speaker to trouble and sometimes even danger.

In my reserve and most I know the reserve members are appointed by election and the ballots are made, also mail in ballots, and count are done and made under the supervision of the public. There might be a little bit of weird stuff happening with the main ins because I never seen them.

I don't feel sorry for whats happening to my people everyone knows but were used to being the underdog. I feel sorry for my children though who are going to learn these truths. I would happily quit my band and transfer to a more proactive first nations community who is setting positive examples for the dummies ruining it.

People who speak up will always come under fire all governments have a plan and it's important that we be made aware of all change.

[TheAboriginalMan]

The problem with picking a new chief the people have no say. That is a dictatorship.

They just picked a new chief of chiefs down the street here in Winnipeg LMFAO. The next event on the list in the conference was about missing aboriginal woman. I'd say a good 85% of the crowd was gone. These are the people we have all elected that occupied most of that conference. Now tell me what all these people really care about. If they were really stressed over aboriginal issues and actually wanted to contribute I am quite positive they would have quieted down and let the next event begin. Amazingly quite sad if you ask me.

[TheAboriginalMan]

The "ride" wasn't meant to last forever ... "meant" by whom?

Government?

Aboriginal people?

What's the time limit on the treaties?

.

The money orgy all our band offices are currently engaged in lol. *Money fight!*.

[TheAboriginalMan]

To be tax exempt as an aboriginal, you don't have to live on reserve. You simply have to work there.

Im not really sure how that whole process works at all.

[eyeball]

Want your house fixed? Better be in good with the chief. If you're always complaining about him and what he's doing well "Sorry, no money available."

Want a job, or want your son to get a job? Better not be on the chief's bad boy list or "Sorry, nothing available".

Yeah, Canadiens are pretty much told the same thing prior to an election.

[TheAboriginalMan]

Good question. We can, however, probably conclude that the lack of interest/action on the part of the ordinary natives demonstrates that they're either against the government on this, or they just have their heads buried so deep in the sand that they don't care.

They are at home raising their children. Hunting and fishing to eat. Trapping to pay the bills. Repairing their homes/vehicles and trying very hard to do something, anything to ensure their survival. If they miss a chance their kids will starve. Unaware of whats happening in the world. Our only source of communication is the radio and it used to be TV when we would get a signal but that changed a few years ago. Now it's just radio.

[eyeball]

I'm sure there's some of that, but it also can help the band learn just how much their chief and councilors are taking for themselves. That puts pressure on the latter, especially when everyone else is shivering in the dark.

So when I suggest economic sanctions against dictatorships instead of trade deals and handshakes you'll have my back right?

[TheAboriginalMan]

Feel free to contribute anything to the discussion and I am not here to defend anything I will give you the truth to the best of my ability.