cybercoma Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 I kinda figured that, but I guess I was hoping I could lead Sharkman to that water so he could drink it himself. We should coordinate our efforts better. Problem is that it's not even worth engaging. Someone who would excuse torture is clearly not open to reason, since they demonstrate that they're not even willing to use it. Quote
eyeball Posted December 19, 2014 Author Report Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) deleted Edited December 19, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted December 21, 2014 Report Posted December 21, 2014 Except that it's your ilk responsible for causing so many people to hate us in the first place. Why do Suunis hate and despise Shias? Why do Shias hate and despise Suunis? Why do both of them hate and despise the Druuze, the Jews, the Christians (in their own lands) and all other religious minorities? And please tell me why you think they would NOT hate us if we ignored them? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 21, 2014 Report Posted December 21, 2014 Torture can be mental OR physical. Thats both the literal definition and internationally accepted legal definition. One of the most famous forms of torture involves nothing more than dripping water on someones forhead for a prolonged ammount of time. Fine then. Let's say I don't have nearly as much of an issue with mental torture as physical torture. Hell, every guy who's been married has been through mental torture any number of times. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 21, 2014 Report Posted December 21, 2014 Torture is wrong, except possibly in the most extreme cases where there is imminent loss of life to a significant number of innocent people. Even then it's still barbaric and disgusting. Well, they're dealing with some pretty barbaric and disgusting people, like the guy who planned 9/11. Civilizations throughout the ages have always survived by having people doing some pretty nasty things to keep them safe against the barbarians who wanted to sack and burn them. It's really no different today. If you don't have some nasty men willing to do some nasty stuff in the dark you get into a lot of trouble. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Moonlight Graham Posted December 22, 2014 Report Posted December 22, 2014 Well, they're dealing with some pretty barbaric and disgusting people, like the guy who planned 9/11. Irrelevant. As Gandhi wisely said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Also, when we give up our FUNDAMENTAL ideals to stoop to their levels, they win. If you don't have some nasty men willing to do some nasty stuff in the dark you get into a lot of trouble. I only agree with it when it is absolutely necessary to prevent imminent attack/harm & save a significant # of lives. The benefits must greatly outweigh the costs when you stoop to such evil. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
eyeball Posted December 22, 2014 Author Report Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Why do Suunis hate and despise Shias? Why do Shias hate and despise Suunis? Why do both of them hate and despise the Druuze, the Jews, the Christians (in their own lands) and all other religious minorities?It's just so freakin' far away that I'll be damned if I know or care. If I had to guess it's mostly a fight over the best places left in a mostly denuded dried out landscape with a bunch of religiosity heaped on just to keep things weird.And please tell me why you think they would NOT hate us if we ignored them?We're so freakin far away for starters! Christ on a stick it's like talking to a brick wall around here. Edited December 22, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted December 22, 2014 Report Posted December 22, 2014 Well, they're dealing with some pretty barbaric and disgusting people, like the guy who planned 9/11. Civilizations throughout the ages have always survived by having people doing some pretty nasty things to keep them safe against the barbarians who wanted to sack and burn them. It's really no different today. If you don't have some nasty men willing to do some nasty stuff in the dark you get into a lot of trouble. I actually think the opposite is true. The countries with all the folks doing nasty stuff in the dark are probably in MORE danger. The US now has a world wide reputation for torture in places like Abu Graib, Guantanimo Bay, and rendition in numerous other countries. This combined with an aggresive confrontational foreign policy puts Americans in danger all around the world. And please tell me why you think they would NOT hate us if we ignored them? Because we know very well why they have turned their attentions to certain countries. Not only have extremist groups themselves made it clear but our own intelligence agencies have told us the same thing. Thats not to say that countries who are not involved face no threat from extremism at all... but obviously countries that are strolling around the middle east blowing things up and killing hundreds of thousands of people are going to face the most risk of being targetted themselves. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted December 23, 2014 Report Posted December 23, 2014 Irrelevant. As Gandhi wisely said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. And Gandhi was shot to death I only agree with it when it is absolutely necessary to prevent imminent attack/harm & save a significant # of lives. The benefits must greatly outweigh the costs when you stoop to such evil. Lots of dirty little things are done every year, not just torture, in order to safeguard civilization from the barbarian hordes. Some of these things are not exactly civilized but there are times when you can't go by the rules. I tend to agree, however, that whatever it is termed, waterboarding and the like should be used only in specific and extreme circumstances. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 23, 2014 Report Posted December 23, 2014 It's just so freakin' far away that I'll be damned if I know or care. If I had to guess it's mostly a fight over the best places left in a mostly denuded dried out landscape with a bunch of religiosity heaped on just to keep things weird. We're so freakin far away for starters! Christ on a stick it's like talking to a brick wall around here. The internet makes us not so far away. Remember that a small newspaper in Denmark published a few not very insulting cartoons of the prophet Muhhamed and there were violent bloody riots throughout the middle east. Would-be assassins showed up at the front door of the cartoonist. I bet most of the people who rioted and killed over it had never even heard of Denmark before. Didn't matter. "Infidels somewhere on the other side of the world in a country you've never heard of are mocking the prophet! Kill everyone! Aaaghhh!" You cannot even conceive of the mentality which would hear that, and then join in a violent riot at, say, a United Nations office (home to NO ONE from Denmark) that would result in foreigners being beaten to death can you? It's like trying to comprehend the mentality of someone raping a six year old and leaving her to die in the snow. It's just not possible. Nevertheless, that mentality is out there. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 23, 2014 Report Posted December 23, 2014 I actually think the opposite is true. The countries with all the folks doing nasty stuff in the dark are probably in MORE danger. The US now has a world wide reputation for torture in places like Abu Graib, Guantanimo Bay, and rendition in numerous other countries. This combined with an aggresive confrontational foreign policy puts Americans in danger all around the world. What you're calling torture most of the world calls normal prisoner interrogation. Certainly there are no Muslim countries which don't routinely practice torture, mostly much nastier versions too. Cuba, of course, does it all the time, as does Russia and China. The US foreign policy is not at all aggressive, considering they have worldwide economic and military interests which need to be protected. And due to its worldwide economic and cultural influence Americans have always been a uniquely high impact target around the world. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Moonlight Graham Posted December 23, 2014 Report Posted December 23, 2014 And Gandhi was shot to death Perfect example. His leadership prevented his followers from exacting the kind of mass violent revenge on possible perpetrators that often happens in the developing world. Not saying this was the one and only factor, but what happened in Rwanda in 1994 after the Hutu Rwandan President was assassinated? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
ReeferMadness Posted December 24, 2014 Report Posted December 24, 2014 The New York Times calls for a criminal investigation. These are, simply, crimes. They are prohibited by federal law, which defines torture as the intentional infliction of “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” They are also banned by the Convention Against Torture, the international treaty that the United States ratified in 1994 and that requires prosecution of any acts of torture. No doubt the people around here who are rushing to defend torture would be OK with waterboarding Cheney to extract a confession. Otherwise, they would just be hypocrites. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
cybercoma Posted December 24, 2014 Report Posted December 24, 2014 It needs to be investigated and prosecuted, so the United States can save face. Not investigated and prosecuted by the international courts, but by the United States itself. That is the only way the US can redeem itself from this. Quote
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