Ipperwash

[jacee]

It's not much more complicated than that. Ken Deane died 13 years later and his testimony in 2006 wasn't likely to be much different than on any previous occasion. It was his and the local OPP's lapse in judgement that led to George's death. Blaming the provincial or federal legislators at the time is just the by-default redirection of blame up the chain of command.

The feds have to settle land claims so protests aren't necessary.

The province is also responsible for aboriginal rights agreements.

The police only get stuck with these situations because the governments haven't acted.

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[Moonbox]

The police only get stuck with these situations because the governments haven't acted.

Police deal with protests on a regular basis. People usually don't get shot.

Unhappiness with the government over land claim settlements is a conceivable cause for protests, but not for individual cops lapsing in judgement and shooting unarmed protesters.

[Michael Hardner]

The feds have to settle land claims so protests aren't necessary.

The province is also responsible for aboriginal rights agreements.

The police only get stuck with these situations because the governments haven't acted.

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I think that governments should be doing a better job of communicating what is happening with claims. They seem to do the opposite, ie. under communicate and hope that difficult controversy goes away.

I understood that the Douglas Estates / Six Nations protest resulted in some kind of negotiation process but from the wiki page, it just seems like a long string of piecemeal (peace-meal) incidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_River_land_dispute#2011

[jacee]

Police deal with protests on a regular basis. People usually don't get shot.

Unhappiness with the government over land claim settlements is a conceivable cause for protests, but not for individual cops lapsing in judgement and shooting unarmed protesters.

I agree absolutely.

The police have treated Indigenous protesters like common criminals, but they aren't because their claims to land and resources are legitimate and are not being addressed in an effective and timely way.

The governments have to deal more effectively with those claims to avoid things becoming a policing issue. So the Ipperwash Inquiry report held governments and police accountable.

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[PIK]

LOL One dead cop, the cop was sniper wasn't he? He would have been watching him with a scope. he would have seen what was going on. And what about caladonia????? What about those poor people that were terrorized by these thugs, where is the outrage for them?

Edited December 10, 2014 by PIK

[jacee]

I think that governments should be doing a better job of communicating what is happening with claims. They seem to do the opposite, ie. under communicate and hope that difficult controversy goes away.

I understood that the Douglas Estates / Six Nations protest resulted in some kind of negotiation process but from the wiki page, it just seems like a long string of piecemeal (peace-meal) incidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_River_land_dispute#2011

One issue that has complicated negotiations re the former 'Douglas Creek Estates' land in Caledonia is that it is part off a much larger claim, the Plank Road claim, so can't really be negotiated individually, so attention shifted to other claims in hopes of some progress, an offer was made and rejected.

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/lsuNegotiations.htm

Since 2010, meetings have not continued in a formal format as previously held between all parties.

I believe that Six Nations then resumed a litigation process (begun in 1995)

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/lsuChronology.htm

(click on list to download full chronology)

It looks like the Discovery process (documentation) continues, but no hearings (Examination of Discovery) have yet occurred.

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[Moonbox]

I agree absolutely.

The police have treated Indigenous protesters like common criminals, but they aren't because their claims to land and resources are legitimate and are not being addressed in an effective and timely way.

I'm not sure we're actually agreeing on much. While I can certainly agree that aboriginals are upset about the pace of land-treaty settlements, that's only a cause for protests.

The governments have to deal more effectively with those claims to avoid things becoming a policing issue. So the Ipperwash Inquiry report held governments and police accountable.

Obviously protests are undesirable, but it's a brutal logical fallacy to conclude that the government not complying with a group's demands/wants/needs leads to police shooting protesting members of that group. The Ipperwash Inquiry was full of non-sequiturs like that.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Moonbox

[jacee]

I'm not sure we're actually agreeing on much. While I can certainly agree that aboriginals are upset about the pace of land-treaty settlements, that's only a cause for protests.

Obviously protests are undesirable, but it's a brutal logical fallacy to conclude that the government not complying with a group's demands/wants/needs leads to police shooting protesting members of that group. The Ipperwash Inquiry was full of non-sequiturs like that.

We're not disagreeing on much either.

From the wiki link:

Acting Sergeant Ken Deane (October 1961 February 25, 2006) was convicted of criminal negligence causing death.

... he unsuccessfully appealed the verdict to the Ontario Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada.[12][13] After a subsequent Police Act Hearing, Deane was convicted of Discreditable Conduct and ordered to resign in 7 days or be fired.

[Argus]

The feds have to settle land claims so protests aren't necessary.

Which native band are you giving your house to?

Alternatively, we could settle for a one time payment of only sixteen trillion dollars.

[Argus]

I think that governments should be doing a better job of communicating what is happening with claims. They seem to do the opposite, ie. under communicate and hope that difficult controversy goes away.

I understood that the Douglas Estates / Six Nations protest resulted in some kind of negotiation process but from the wiki page, it just seems like a long string of piecemeal (peace-meal) incidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_River_land_dispute#2011

As far as a 'negotiated process' I'm not aware the Ontario government did anything but buy the land off the owners after they were forced off it by native thugs, and then promised to turn the land over to the natives at some point in time. Meanwhile it's a garbage dump, and just about everyone in Caledonia now despises natives.

[Michael Hardner]

... then promised to turn the land over to the natives at some point in time.

Really ? That's even more mind-boggling then. Why the delay ?

Do you have a link for that ? I have friends who live in the area who may also have info, I'll ask them.

[overthere]

As far as a 'negotiated process' I'm not aware the Ontario government did anything but buy the land off the owners after they were forced off it by native thugs, and then promised to turn the land over to the natives at some point in time. Meanwhile it's a garbage dump, and just about everyone in Caledonia now despises natives.

Other than the currency today is dollars rather than blankets and flour, the process sounds remarkably like how the Crown first came to possess First Nations land in the first place a long time ago.

Fewer guns and overt racism today, but still...

[drummindiver]

Yes I agree: The white thugs spewing racist crap in Caledonia and in Ipperwash are worthless.

I heard that people of Caledonia ran some of those non-resident racist white thug instigators out of town this summer, throwing eggs and tomatoes at them.

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You obviously have zero idea of what's happened in Caledonia.

[drummindiver]

Dudley's uncle:

"If we'd had a gun there would have been one dead cop that night, but we didn't have any."

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You are trying to defend their actions by this? That they would shoot a cop if only they had a gun?

[drummindiver]

I agree absolutely.

The police have treated Indigenous protesters like common criminals, but they aren't because their claims to land and resources are legitimate and are not being addressed in an effective and timely way.

The governments have to deal more effectively with those claims to avoid things becoming a policing issue. So the Ipperwash Inquiry report held governments and police accountable.

.

Are you serious? Treated like common criminals? They act like common criminals and nothing happens.

This is what happens walking down the public street as a white person in Caledonia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33t-zr1MrQ

Start around the 17 min. mark. Native guys assault a vet, wrestle with 6 cops, yet they arrest a white person who did nothing. Reclaimed land?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZhO_3Y5m0

Man almost killed.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2142289-caledonia-assault-caught-us-off-guard-opp/

A car jacking with injuries. OPP do nothing. No charges.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004114.html

No need to pay rent. Don't allow tax payers to walk down public roads.

http://www.blogwrath.com/native-issues-2/violent-native-occupier-attacks-gary-mchale-in-caledonia/5828/

Two years less a day for almost killing a man and leaving him brain dead. Leniency because he was Aboriginal.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/23/native-attacker-given-reduced-sentence-for-vicious-caledonia-assault/

The list goes on, though I'm sure you'll find a way to blame the tax paying law abiding non-natives in this conflict.

[jbg]

The list goes on, though I'm sure you'll find a way to blame the tax paying law abiding non-natives in this conflict.

Well you have to understand. Their childhoods are messed up. They lack self-esteem. White people called them mean things. Or, to quote West Side Story, "they're depraved on account they're deprived."

Looking at these things as double standards is simplistic. You have to get into believing in People's Justice.

[drummindiver]

Arrested for walking in public while white.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yppJiYXCIVI

[jbg]

Arrested for walking in public while white.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yppJiYXCIVI

I watched part of the video. There's no question that the white people should have the right to walk where they want. The issue is whether the police have the power to provisionally prevent obvious trouble. The beef that I have is that the police were doing nothing to stop the barracading of that road.

And by the way there's another PM for you.

[jacee]

I watched part of the video. There's no question that the white people should have the right to walk where they want.

This is Caledonia, not Ipperwash.

That said, people can't walk on provincial land that is closed to the public.

The issue is whether the police have the power to provisionally prevent obvious trouble. The beef that I have is that the police were doing nothing to stop the barracading of that road.

It's provincial land, closed to the public.

That idiot brigade has cost us all many many thousands in policing for their halfwit displays, and has since been unwelcome in that town.

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Edited January 4, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

Well you have to understand. Their childhoods are messed up. They lack self-esteem. White people called them mean things. Or, to quote West Side Story, "they're depraved on account they're deprived."

Looking at these things as double standards is simplistic. You have to get into believing in People's Justice.

Snide comments aside,

justice is in process ...

/commentary-a-supreme-court-ruling-40-years-in-the-making

aboriginal groups in Canada have won almost 200 court cases against government and industry, a string of judicial victories for aboriginal title that continued to pile up.

[jbg]

Well you have to understand. Their childhoods are messed up. They lack self-esteem. White people called them mean things. Or, to quote West Side Story, "they're depraved on account they're deprived."

Looking at these things as double standards is simplistic. You have to get into believing in People's Justice.

Snide comments aside,

justice is in process ...

/commentary-a-supreme-court-ruling-40-years-in-the-making

aboriginal groups in Canada have won almost 200 court cases against government and industry, a string of judicial victories for aboriginal title that continued to pile up.

You must be a racist. I am saying that as a result of their severe deprivation literally any behavior on their part should be tolerated and encouraged.

[jacee]

You must be a racist. I am saying that as a result of their severe deprivation literally any behavior on their part should be tolerated and encouraged.

And I am saying that they are acting on legitimate claims to the land, and winning cases in courts all the time.

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[Ash74]

And I am saying that they are acting on legitimate claims to the land, and winning cases in courts all the time.

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That point you are correct but that does not explain the abuses that is being put upon the non natives in the area. We cannot change the sins of the past and ignoring the law when it suits the police is not the answer.

[jbg]

That point you are correct but that does not explain the abuses that is being put upon the non natives in the area. We cannot change the sins of the past and ignoring the law when it suits the police is not the answer.

To some extent the Courts may be responding to the reality that neither police nor society have the stomach to resist native demands.

[jacee]

That point you are correct but that does not explain the abuses that is being put upon the non natives in the area. We cannot change the sins of the past and ignoring the law when it suits the police is not the answer.

The police's first responsibility is upholding the Constitution. They try to keep the peace while Constitutional disputes are resolved by governments.

So take your complaints to your MPP & MP.

The police are doing the right thing.

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