Jian Ghomeshi Fired from Q

bush_cheney2004 · November 3, 2014

Verbal consent likely wouldn't stand up in court, but it would prevent many misunderstandings early on.

Agreed...which is why I am pressing on this point. "he said...she said"

guyser · November 3, 2014

Verbal consent likely wouldn't stand up in court,

Likely?

Consent is not a defense . They have the same laws as we do as respects this.

His 'contamination' is a ruse since he knows consent cannot be given were bodily harm comes into play.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.

According to her account, he shoved his fingers into her vagina without her consent. That you can so blithely gloss over the issue of consenting to sexual activity absolutely disgusts me. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Moreover, if you're implying that she did consent, who the hell are you to tell a victim of sexual assault that she's wrong about her own consent?

This is exactly what was pointed to earlier in the article by Joanne Wright on Rabble. Patriarchal male privilege is so pervasive that you even think you can define for a woman whether or not she has given consent. Just so it's abundantly clear, since your arguments belie the fact that there's any possibility that you know this, women are people with their own thoughts, feelings, opinions, and destiny, in a word autonomy. They get to choose with whom, when, where, and how they engage in sexual activities. It is never ok to assume someone consents to sex and just force yourself upon them. That you feel the need to say she was drinking and smoking up with Jian, so she consented, despite her saying she doesn't, shows a disgusting disregard for not only consent itself, but a woman's ability to know and articulate whether or not she does in fact consent. This is rape culture and you are contributing to it.

I'm not implying anything, just looking at it from a legal perspective. I know why women don't always come forward, but that really has nothing to do with whether Ghomeshi is guilty or not.

What do you recommend be done with Ghomeshi?

Michael Hardner · November 4, 2014

Likely?

Consent is not a defense . They have the same laws as we do as respects this.

His 'contamination' is a ruse since he knows consent cannot be given were bodily harm comes into play.

Follow the conversation I was having with BC - it wasn't about BDSM play, it was about how consent is generally dealt with these days.

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

I'm not implying anything, just looking at it from a legal perspective. I know why women don't always come forward, but that really has nothing to do with whether Ghomeshi is guilty or not.

What do you recommend be done with Ghomeshi?

Ummmm, women have come forward saying he is guilty. That should have something to do with if he is guilty or not. The fact women have been afraid to come out does little to assuage guilt.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Ummmm, women have come forward saying he is guilty. That should have something to do with if he is guilty or not. The fact women have been afraid to come out does little to assuage guilt.

Good answer, but that wasn't the question.

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

Good answer, but that wasn't the question.

The question was not so good but the answer is quite obvious: the evidence should be heard by a jury.

Bonam · November 4, 2014

It has been explained numerous times here and elsewhere why women don't come forward when they're assaulted. If you were interested in understanding, then you would already. All of these questions and accusations about the victims takes the focus away from where it belongs: squarely on the perpetrator. Questioning the accusers, indeed implying that they are liars, deserved the abuse, or even wanted it, is exactly why they don't come forward with these accusations.

That's all well and good. And certainly victims of sexual assault should be treated so as to minimize any additional trauma or stress. However, in the case of a criminal investigation, the guilt of the accused has to be proven; they are innocent until proven guilty. In many cases, a large portion of the available evidence is the accounts of the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim, therefore, only by getting as full an account as possible ("questioning") from both parties, can any progress be made in an investigation and trial. While rape is certainly a sensitive issue, the principle of innocent until proven guilty cannot simply be abandoned in rape cases just because rigorous legal proceedings may be unpleasant or traumatic for the accuser. And yes, the determination of guilt or innocence and the severity of sentencing may depend on some of the details of the situation.

Have you not even considered that a lot of these women internalize these situations and blame themselves already? And is that fair? Is it ever the victims fault?

In many predominately Islamic countries it is, yes. However, there seems to be little concern about this among those who critique the (relatively minor) remaining gender inequities in Western societies.

They are the result of the perpetrator's thoughts and actions alone. Don't beat and rape ~~women~~ anyone. How hard is that to understand?

Fixed it for you.

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2014

Sexual consent negotiation....

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

That's all well and good. And certainly victims of sexual assault should be treated so as to minimize any additional trauma or stress. However, in the case of a criminal investigation, the guilt of the accused has to be proven; they are innocent until proven guilty. In many cases, a large portion of the available evidence is the accounts of the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim, therefore, only by getting as full an account as possible ("questioning") from both parties, can any progress be made in an investigation and trial. While rape is certainly a sensitive issue, the principle of innocent until proven guilty cannot simply be abandoned in rape cases just because rigorous legal proceedings may be unpleasant or traumatic for the accuser. And yes, the determination of guilt or innocence and the severity of sentencing may depend on some of the details of the situation.

In many predominately Islamic countries it is, yes. However, there seems to be little concern about this among those who critique the (relatively minor) remaining gender inequities in Western societies.

Fixed it for you.

It amazes me just how many Canadian people are willing (in some cases demanding) to forego this process and find someone guilty without questioning the accuser because awkward questions might arise. Heaven help us if we give up our day in court.

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

It amazes me just how many Canadian people are willing (in some cases demanding) to forego this process and find someone guilty without questioning the accuser because awkward questions might arise. Heaven help us if we give up our day in court.

You seem to have a hard time understanding that a lot of this discussion is about changing attitudes so people who have previously not had their day in court are not any longer afraid to take up that very right.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

You seem to have a hard time understanding that a lot of this discussion is about changing attitudes so people who have previously not had their day in court are not any longer afraid to take up that very right.

I understand that it's a hard thing to do, and I think that all these women should come forward and if charges are brought, testify in a court of law. What I don't understand is those people who think charges and even a conviction should come without the victims testifying.

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

I have no idea where you got that idea, but I assure you that will never happen.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Several of you are outraged and pointing fingers at me, implying things that I never suggested just because I mentioned questions that lawyers would ask. Cybercoma and WCR don't think these women should be questioned at all and to do so, makes me some kind of monster, I'm attacking them - the reason they never come forward. They want Ghomeshi convicted (and after due process, if he is guilty, so do I), but on what charge? All I have ever said is that the stories don't support what people seem to think they do.

WCR won't answer the question I posted to her - and for good reason.

cybercoma · November 4, 2014

Cybercoma and WCR don't think these women should be questioned at all and to do so, makes me some kind of monster, I'm attacking them - the reason they never come forward.

Not by you they shouldn't be. You ain't in court and you sure as hell aren't a lawyer.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

cybercoma - "All of these questions and accusations about the victims takes the focus away from where it belongs: squarely on the perpetrator. Questioning the accusers, indeed implying that they are liars, deserved the abuse, or even wanted it, is exactly why they don't come forward with these accusations."

Nobody is saying any of this.

Ill say it again, if any of these women want to see Ghomeshi prosecuted, questions will be asked. Are we not allowed to speculate on what happened and what a court might do? I've speculated what I might ask if I was a lawyer and you've chosen to accuse me of victimizing these women.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Not by you they shouldn't be. You ain't in court and you sure as hell aren't a lawyer.

It's Ok for you to speculate and make accusations...why?

BTW - Both the women who I've talked about have gone public with their story, which means we are allowed to discuss the details of their accounts.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Hal 9000

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

Your speculations on what a lawyer might ask are about as speculative as whether or not the sun will rise in the east. The actual speculation arising out of current situation is will women in this position be given a fair/er shake.

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Your speculations on what a lawyer might ask are about as speculative as whether or not the sun will rise in the east. The actual speculation arising out of current situation is will women in this position be given a fair/er shake.

You thought questions absurd yesterday, today their obvious?

These women will be given a fair shake I can guarantee that.

On Guard for Thee · November 4, 2014

No you can't. But we shall see.

cybercoma · November 4, 2014

It's Ok for you to speculate and make accusations...why?

BTW - Both the women who I've talked about have gone public with their story, which means we are allowed to discuss the details of their accounts.

Because I'm not so gauche that I call the victim of abuse a "looney" and a "space cadet" for absolutely no reason. I'm also not a court, so I don't require someone to prove that she didn't consent against the word of her abuser. I will take the victim's word at face value every time because reasonable people don't typically lie about such terrible things. I've already explained all of this earlier in the thread.

Edited November 4, 2014 by cybercoma

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Because I'm not so gauche that I call the victim of abuse a "looney" and a "space cadet" for absolutely no reason. I'm also not a court, so I don't require someone to prove that she didn't consent against the word of her abuser. I will take the victim's word at face value every time because reasonable people don't typically lie about such terrible things. I've already explained all of this earlier in the thread.

So, you have absolutely no impartiality whatsoever. Innocent until proven guilty means nothing to you?

So, based on what we know, what would be a fitting punishment for Ghomeshi?

Hal 9000 · November 4, 2014

Because I'm not so gauche that I call the victim of abuse a "looney" and a "space cadet" for absolutely no reason. I'm also not a court, so I don't require someone to prove that she didn't consent against the word of her abuser. I will take the victim's word at face value every time because reasonable people don't typically lie about such terrible things. I've already explained all of this earlier in the thread.

What makes you any better than these muslim countries who give women half the say of men? At least there, a woman has some voice, here in Canada you want to give men zero say in their defence.

BTW - I have never accused anyone of lying.

cybercoma · November 4, 2014

Who said I want to change the justice system? Stop making up ridiculous strawman positions to knock over. I have absolutely no interest discussing this with you when you don't even understand what I'm saying or if you do, you choose to misrepresent it.

Mighty AC · November 4, 2014

This slate article by Carl Wilson, a member of the Toronto's art scene and an acquaintance of Ghomeshi, is an interesting read. It grapples with the question of what to do when we sort of know something wrong is taking place.

What do you do, you thought then, about actions that make women feel unsafe, violated, but do not cross the line of criminality? About gray zones? About the creeps in your midst?

Now, you think: If something seems kind of wrong, it is all too possible that it is very wrong.

In Jian’s case, you didn’t know, of course. But you knew. There was doublethink, a split consciousness. “Everybody” knew, so perhaps you had no special burden, not compared to his employers, for example. A former Q staffer says that after she complained, a CBC executive reminded her to be “malleable.” There remain a lot of questions about what happened there.

But maybe you, too, downplayed the problem because facing it might mean making a sacrifice: You liked doing that show. Just as the CBC and the U.S. stations liked having that show. As his publisher liked selling his 1980s memoir. As organizations liked having Jian host. As websites and newspapers liked printing his handsome photos.

And so it went on. And more women ended up hurt.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Mighty AC