Soldiers Hit in Quebec

[Guest]

This incident certainly has a lot of different angles and issues. I will go on a different tangent;

A person drives a car into two people in a mall in a small town in Ontario. The person leaves the scene of the accident and is pursued by the police. The driver flips the car and exits the car with a knife. That person is killed by (5 or more) bullets by the police.

Looks like Martin Couture Rouleau took a knife to a gunfight or the police took a gun to a knife fight.

I have seen a number of incidents of police fatal shooting discussed here where it was always questioned why gunfire by the police was used. I wonder if this question will also be discussed in this case.

The point is, it's not a fight. The Police have no obligation to act proportionally when it comes to an assailant with a weapon. They only have an obligation to protect others, including themselves. Personally, I would say, especially themselves. If it takes a gun to stop a knife, so be it.

I

[dre]

Yet law enforcement is calling for both additional legal powers and resources.....

Yes OF COURSE the government and its security apparatus will ALWAYS want more power. Our liberty is a total pain in the ass for them.

So what?

[Derek 2.0]

Yes OF COURSE the government and its security apparatus will ALWAYS want more power. Our liberty is a total pain in the ass for them.

So what?

I would think that obvious.........said calls will be reported by the media, in turn a media drummed up panic among the populace will lead to political parties heeding the calls for further resources and changes to current laws, those parties that don't, will be labelled soft on terrorism......

[Moonlight Graham]

So, in your view, what would be a reasonable response? Change/alter/remove/strengthen laws to aid the likes of the CSIS/RCMP/CBSA etc in surveilling and prosecuting such threats, or would you prefer rounding up all such suspects with the army as done by a previous Liberal Government? Or somewhere in between?

I'm in favour of strengthening laws and creating new laws etc. to combat extremists, as long as such measures are themselves lawful and constitutional and respect Charter-guaranteed privacy rights and due process. No warrantless wire-tapping or email-hacking etc, no secret domestic spying programs like PRISM and the secret Canadian airport audio eavesdropping, and a need for strict oversight and checks/balances on all spying/surveillance.

The government should not be able to, and constitutionally does not have the right to (Charter, Section 8), invade my or any Canadian's privacy in any way whatsoever without a legal go-ahead based on reasonable suspicion.

[Signals.Cpl]

In this case, and as reported, a number of passports have been revoked prior to them leaving the country............again, as mentioned, such measures didn't prevent this case, but in a case like the Boston bombings as speculated or members of the PIRA, some travel overseas to expand their ability to conduct such attacks on their return home.

The only education any of them need could be obtained from the internet… Confiscating their passports while in Canada means that they cannot leave but if they are smart enough there is plenty of damage that can be done right here, right now without any external help.

[Signals.Cpl]

Why do we need strengthened laws? Nobody has made a compelling case for that yet IMO. And if you are worried about the erosion of our rights and freedoms the thing you should fear most is the government crafting legislation in knee-jerk reaction to extremely rare events.

Strengthen the laws in the sense that if an Imam preaches violence then the hammer comes down. If/when we catch one of these idiots we lock him/her up for a long long time and if we catch them coming back from one of those nations lock them up as well… should we have rock solid proof that they fought as part of a terrorist organization that actively aims to hurt us or our allies then we lock them up for treason and throw away the keys.

And maybe take their words more seriously, if someone says that we should kill Canadian soldiers in Canada then charge them, if they say they will kill Canadians in Canada or abroad then again send them to jail… essentially if they are inciting terrorism in any way shape or form you lock them up. In many of these cases I assume the parents/families would be more than willing to cooperate in order to prevent their loved once from dying in Iraq, Syria or a terrorist attack in Canada.

There is a limit to freedom of religion and there is a limit to freedom of speech. We should take special care to lock up those who cross those lines.

[Derek 2.0]

The only education any of them need could be obtained from the internet… Confiscating their passports while in Canada means that they cannot leave but if they are smart enough there is plenty of damage that can be done right here, right now without any external help.

Then why do said groups have overseas training camps, and in turn, people going to them to learn how to fight and export terror?

This is hardly a new concept..........The British, French, Spanish, West Germans etc have been revoking passports form suspected terrorists for decades.....

[Derek 2.0]

I'm in favour of strengthening laws and creating new laws etc. to combat extremists, as long as such measures are themselves lawful and constitutional and respect Charter-guaranteed privacy rights and due process. No warrantless wire-tapping or email-hacking etc, no secret domestic spying programs like PRISM and the secret Canadian airport audio eavesdropping, and a need for strict oversight and checks/balances on all spying/surveillance.

The government should not be able to, and constitutionally does not have the right to (Charter, Section 8), invade my or any Canadian's privacy in any way whatsoever without a legal go-ahead based on reasonable suspicion.

So, in effect, the status quo........

[Big Guy]

...

There is a limit to freedom of religion and there is a limit to freedom of speech. We should take special care to lock up those who cross those lines.

The people in charge then begin to decide what "limits" to put on our freedom of speech. When we start to put people in jail for voicing an opinion then we become just like those folks we are fighting.

[Army Guy]

The people in charge then begin to decide what "limits" to put on our freedom of speech. When we start to put people in jail for voicing an opinion then we become just like those folks we are fighting.

There are already limits on our freedom of speach, even here on this forum, what people tend to forget is while you can say what ever you wish there are consquences... closing down these ISIL forums would be a start, along with all the other terrorist forums....that do nothing but promote hate, recruit our young people for terrorist activities. We need to do more than whats being done now to prevent these scumbags from preying on our citizens. As home grown terrorist are becoming an issue.

While the report did say they were tracking over 80 Canadian citizens, what i'd like to know is how many are they not tracking ????

[Signals.Cpl]

Then why do said groups have overseas training camps, and in turn, people going to them to learn how to fight and export terror?

This is hardly a new concept..........The British, French, Spanish, West Germans etc have been revoking passports form suspected terrorists for decades.....

And it will work less and less… the terrorists in West Germany did not have access to the internet and its educational potential. You can take the guys passport and he will go to a computer club, use google to find a way to make a bomb and he just saved himself some time.A 128Gb USB stick can hold plenty of information someone passes it to you in a mosque and guess what, you saved yourself a trip to Iraq as you have all you need to build bombs, strategies to make your attacks count etc...

Do you know what kind of information the Internet has? Can you imagine someone with the intelligence to do some research building bombs with materials that every Canadian uses daily?

Terrorist camps are great to solidify their hold over the individual, give them ideas, fund them and maybe help their field craft(how to avoid getting caught too early). We are very lucky that these idiots have the mental ability to kill us only one at a time.

Revoking the passport might work for a small minority of individuals but the reality is that it is more of a feel good solution( I did something about it) instead of being a real solution.

[Army Guy]

Why do we need strengthened laws? Nobody has made a compelling case for that yet IMO. And if you are worried about the erosion of our rights and freedoms the thing you should fear most is the government crafting legislation in knee-jerk reaction to extremely rare events.

Why because the current laws give the bad guys an advantage, there are to many loop holes that they take advantage of.... why are we just surv these 80 suspect terrorist, some of them we know have been to Sryia, or Iraq, we know they have been fighting for terrorist organizations , we just can not prove it without a shadow of doubt....they remain free to travel when they want...to comit any crimes they want...they know once in the war zone they are free to do what they want.....because nobody is watching....

[Signals.Cpl]

The people in charge then begin to decide what "limits" to put on our freedom of speech. When we start to put people in jail for voicing an opinion then we become just like those folks we are fighting.

You do realize we already have limits to our freedom of speech…right? I'm going to slit your throat is one of those "freedoms" we don't have because the second you utter that you have more than likely set yourself up for an arrest.

Tell me that you a free to say whatever you like to anyone you want without any legal consequences, if you can't that means that your freedom of speech is already limited.

[Big Guy]

You do realize we already have limits to our freedom of speech…right? I'm going to slit your throat is one of those "freedoms" we don't have because the second you utter that you have more than likely set yourself up for an arrest.

Tell me that you a free to say whatever you like to anyone you want without any legal consequences, if you can't that means that your freedom of speech is already limited.

Of course there are limits. Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is the usual example. You also are not allowed to threaten or intimidate an individual. But, to voice an opinion contrary to government policy is not.

So if you vocally oppose the Canadian involvement in the wars in the Middle East, should that put you in jail? Who decides?

[Boges]

Breaking News that there's a shooting at the War Memorial in Ottawa. Apparently another soldier was shot.

If the shooter can be identified as an Islamist the Bleep Storm will be huge.

[Signals.Cpl]

Of course there are limits. Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is the usual example. You also are not allowed to threaten or intimidate an individual. But, to voice an opinion contrary to government policy is not.

So if you vocally oppose the Canadian involvement in the wars in the Middle East, should that put you in jail? Who decides?

I'm not talking about voicing opinions. I know plenty of muslims who oppose Canadian involvement in Iraq and out involvement in Afghanistan before that but none of them make statements that they want to kill Canadian soldiers or civilians. My whole point is that if someone preaches violence against Canadians then throw him in jail, if someone preaches terrorism, once again jail. There is a difference between I don't support this government, and I want to kill Canadians...

[Big Guy]

I am not trying to second guess the police at the site but it would have been nice to capture this guy alive. He was armed only with a knife but I assume that the policemen thought that their lives were in danger.

Perhaps law enforcement should review their approach to these domestic "terrorists". If indeed they are terrorists, then it is crucial that we find out if there was a terrorist cell and get as much information out of these guys as possible to prevent future problems.

[Derek 2.0]

And it will work less and less… the terrorists in West Germany did not have access to the internet and its educational potential. You can take the guys passport and he will go to a computer club, use google to find a way to make a bomb and he just saved himself some time.A 128Gb USB stick can hold plenty of information someone passes it to you in a mosque and guess what, you saved yourself a trip to Iraq as you have all you need to build bombs, strategies to make your attacks count etc...

Do you know what kind of information the Internet has? Can you imagine someone with the intelligence to do some research building bombs with materials that every Canadian uses daily?

Terrorist camps are great to solidify their hold over the individual, give them ideas, fund them and maybe help their field craft(how to avoid getting caught too early). We are very lucky that these idiots have the mental ability to kill us only one at a time.

Revoking the passport might work for a small minority of individuals but the reality is that it is more of a feel good solution( I did something about it) instead of being a real solution.

.....And yet, "terror tourists" have been arrested by the British, French, Dutch, Americans etc...........Revoking passports, and in turn the ease of international travel, has never been suggested as a solution in and of itself.

[Signals.Cpl]

.....And yet, "terror tourists" have been arrested by the British, French, Dutch, Americans etc...........Revoking passports, and in turn the ease of international travel, has never been suggested as a solution in and of itself.

But it doesn't seem to be working too well for us now does it?

[Derek 2.0]

But it doesn't seem to be working too well for us now does it?

That's subjective.........replace a car and SxS shotgun with large truck bombs

[Scared.In.Canada]

I'm sure the left wing will call this a routine traffic accident. The Muslim driver will probably be up for the Order of Canada shortly. Multiculturalism is working, isn;'t it?

[guyser]

...and by revoking citizenship we create a two tiered citizenship basically saying if you are Canadian you are our problem, but if you are "Canadian" then you are not.

No way jose.

If you are Canadian, you are Canadian and no amount of behaviour will or should strip you of that status.

However, if you lied coming in, lied on an app, well then....the Govt can remove that status.

[guyser]

Does the RCMP have a working relationship with law enforcement in ISIS controlled areas of Iraq or Syria?

Dunno. Please dont move the goalposts.

Was just advising that we do in fact try people in Canada for crimes committed outside of Canada.

[guyser]

I'm sure the left wing will call this a routine traffic accident. The Muslim driver will probably be up for the Order of Canada shortly. Multiculturalism is working, isn;'t it?

Oh look....grade school let out for the day.

Not to mention, it was a car accident. He was a lousy driver and crashed.....unless you think he purposely crashed!

[Derek 2.0]

Dunno. Please dont move the goalposts.

Was just advising that we do in fact try people in Canada for crimes committed outside of Canada.

No goalposts moved at all.......but, clearly tracking these guys in such areas is more difficult.