Time To Fight Anti-Union Leislation

[Argus]

The conclusion you're drawing here is feeble.

No, my conclusion is correct. Your attempt to use it to lambaste unions is feeble.

The protests of the union were 100% pointless in this case. Regardless of whether Canada banned the export, its sawmills weren't going to get Japanese business. What's worse, the ban would also kill Canadian jobs harvesting the logs.

The point you're ignoring in your frantic need to attack unions is that the logs are going overseas because Japan could have gotten them from elsewhere, not because of the unions. From your own statement sawmill workers don't make much money, so why the bitterness towards them?

From your position, this example at best does absolutely nothing to support your argument. At worst, it can serve as an example of Canadian unions driving jobs overseas. As usual, your logic is exemplary.

As usual, your argument is absurdly incoherent. Those rotten union people (who you admit make little money) driving jobs overseas (even though you know it's because of a glut of supply allowing Japan to dictate terms), daring to protest at the export of raw logs! Damn them! How dare they protest anything!

[Argus]

No, I'm pretty sure he meant the influence of unions.

Having a union means that businesses have to pay more for labour; you may consider what the lumber workers are demanding to be a "fair wage"; however, if costs are driven up too much, a company may be forced out of business, or change its business model (which could mean exporting raw materials rather than finished product).

Yes, it's far too expensive to employ Canadians to do anything. Say, why don't we just bring Chinese over to work in all the sawmills? Heck, we have the precedent in mining already. Maybe we could bring them over to do whatever it is you do for a living too. I bet they can do it cheaper and won't need either a union or any kind of benefits!

[segnosaur]

Then he's wrong. I recall at the time the protests of unions at the government's decision to allow the export of raw logs.

The impetus for the export was not high labour here but the desire of the Japanese to do the work there with their own people and reap both the higher profits of a finished good...

Ummm... you do realized that you've basically debunked your own point....

Profits and labor costs are generally inversely related... the higher the labor cost (for example, if a mill is unionized), the lower the profits. And companies have an obligation to maximize profits. If a company can cut costs by buying unfinished lumber and finishing it themselves (rather than buying finished lumber) they should. Only an idiot would pay more for a product than they had to. (Do you reguarly drive around and look for the most expansive gas station you can find before filling your car?)

And despite what you might think, 'profit' is not a dirty word... it provices the incentive for resources to be allocated according to people's wishes, and it encourages investment in the economy.

[Demosthenes26]

Yes, it's far too expensive to employ Canadians to do anything. Say, why don't we just bring Chinese over to work in all the sawmills? Heck, we have the precedent in mining already. Maybe we could bring them over to do whatever it is you do for a living too. I bet they can do it cheaper and won't need either a union or any kind of benefits!

Why Does always have to be the Chinese with you? Viets are cheaper.

[Hal 9000]

Yes, it's far too expensive to employ Canadians to do anything. Say, why don't we just bring Chinese over to work in all the sawmills? Heck, we have the precedent in mining already. Maybe we could bring them over to do whatever it is you do for a living too. I bet they can do it cheaper and won't need either a union or any kind of benefits!

I'm not making the rules, just telling you how it is. There is a price point in which a company just throws up it's arms and says they can't pay what the unions are demanding - If you don't believe it, fair enough, but that's the reality of the situation.

[Peter F]

No kidding? Whats that price point in Alberta? BC? Yukon? Is it all laid out somewhere?

[Moonbox]

No, my conclusion is correct. Your attempt to use it to lambaste unions is feeble.

*yawn*

Right Argus...

The point you're ignoring in your frantic need to attack unions is that the logs are going overseas because Japan could have gotten them from elsewhere, not because of the unions.

My 'frantic' need....

The logs went overseas because it was more cost effective for the Japanese to mill the wood themselves. The fact that the unions lobbied the government to block this common-sense trade relationship is an obvious example of the type of games the unions like to play (ie. the influence they exert, or at least try to, on the economy and government).

From your own statement sawmill workers don't make much money, so why the bitterness towards them?

I said no such thing. This is another example of your efforts at misquoting and misrepresenting what other people say. I said sawmill workers are generally low-skilled.

Those rotten union people (who you admit make little money)

100% didn't say that at all. Your lack of intellectual integrity is on open display! Thanks!

driving jobs overseas (even though you know it's because of a glut of supply allowing Japan to dictate terms), daring to protest at the export of raw logs! Damn them! How dare they protest anything!

What we know is that a union in Canada tried to block the export of raw logs to Japan with the ill-conceived goal of forcing the Japanese to buy the processed lumber that they were producing. Had they been successful, they'd have not only failed to acquire the business they were seeking, they would have also contributed to lost jobs on the raw timber export side. It's no wonder that private sector unions have imploded in North America with that sort of genius at work.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Moonbox

[overthere]

No kidding? Whats that price point in Alberta? BC? Yukon? Is it all laid out somewhere?

Several mines in YT have closed in the past when they hit their price point.

Whitehorse Copper, Faro, United Keno Hill and countless gold operators. Of course, others have opened though not enough to take up the slack.

Price points in AB. How about monster, megabillion projects cancelled by SatOl and Total in 2014? Several upgraders in the Heartland cancelled... Labour costs were a bg reason for all of them, just cheaper to do it elsewhere.

[Peter F]

I'm sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. What is the price point regarding labour costs? Above which businesses close and below which they remain operating?

[cybercoma]

I'm sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. What is the price point regarding labour costs? Above which businesses close and below which they remain operating?

$0

[Michael Hardner]

If you're Postmedia (National Post) then your price point is negative $1 million per month:

Postmedia, which publishes the National Post and a number of local dailies including the Ottawa Citizen and Vancouver Sun, released its latest earnings last month,[/size]showing losses widening to $14.2 million compared to a net loss of $11.1 million a year earlier.[/size]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/08/quebecor-torstar-earnings-newspapers-canada_n_3238212.html

[Argus]

Ummm... you do realized that you've basically debunked your own point....

Profits and labor costs are generally inversely related...

Not necessarily. If they already own sawmills which are not working to capacity and employ workers who are not working to capacity (Japanese companies are loath to lay off long time workers) it could make more economic sense to do it there even if it was technically cheaper here. There's also the national interest thing which means the taxes on that economic activity and those individual workers go to Japan. Again, that isn't something a north American corporation would put any consideration into but a Japanese company may well.

[Argus]

I'm not making the rules, just telling you how it is. There is a price point in which a company just throws up it's arms and says they can't pay what the unions are demanding - If you don't believe it, fair enough, but that's the reality of the situation.

Canada exports billions in lumber every year, with exports growing.

[Argus]

What we know is that a union in Canada tried to block the export of raw logs to Japan with the ill-conceived goal of forcing the Japanese to buy the processed lumber

There you go. Thank you for completely agreeing with me.

You can go away now.

[Moonbox]

Not necessarily. If they already own sawmills which are not working to capacity and employ workers who are not working to capacity (Japanese companies are loath to lay off long time workers) it could make more economic sense to do it there even if it was technically cheaper here. There's also the national interest thing which means the taxes on that economic activity and those individual workers go to Japan. Again, that isn't something a north American corporation would put any consideration into but a Japanese company may well.

That's why Sony outsources so much work to Foxconn in Taiwan, right? For national interest? You've also never heard of the Buy American Act, nor related provisions either, I see.

The Japanese, like everyone else, outsource when it makes sense.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

Every time I see a barge with millions of dollars worth of unmilled raw timber heading to Japan, I think of the influence of unions.

I think of the influence of politicians who are bought and paid for by the owners of the timber quotas - to ensure the shitty human rights and environmental standards of some destination countries are overlooked in our trade policies and agreements.

Of course I also think of people like you who appear to think things are just dandy.

Edited October 10, 2014 by eyeball

[eyeball]

And despite what you might think, 'profit' is not a dirty word... it provices the incentive for resources to be allocated according to people's wishes, and it encourages investment in the economy.

The wishes of who exactly? In my experience trying to bring a more community or area-based management system and allocation process for natural resources like timber or fish into being is a concept that even unions are pretty tepid about. Like corporations and big governments they all seem quite adverse to the idea of having to deal with a larger number of smaller locally based jurisdictions. They all prefer the cozier relationships that are afforded by centralization which of course governments all prefer too.

[Moonbox]

I think of the influence of politicians who are bought and paid for by the owners of the timber quotas

Of course I also think of people like you who appear to think things are just dandy.

Are you equally disdainful of the Dairy Board?

[eyeball]

Of course I am.

[Hal 9000]

I think of the influence of politicians who are bought and paid for by the owners of the timber quotas - to ensure the shitty human rights and environmental standards of some destination countries are overlooked in our trade policies and agreements.

Of course I also think of people like you who appear to think things are just dandy.

I don't think that, I'm not even sure how you get that from my post.

Im quite disappointed in what we're doing with our resources, of course, I know first hand why it's happening so...

[eyeball]

I guess I misjudged your sentiment, you seem quite negative towards unions and that depth of disdain for unions usually indicates a certain admiration for their employers or anything that furthers their interests.

How first hand is your knowledge of why the lion's share of the public's resource wealth goes to the wealthiest amongst us? Having watched and lived through this unfolding trend in fishing has been informative. The last time I fished for halibut for example I was paid .15 and the quota holder got the other 3.65 the fish actually sold for.

When I look at our new forest community I see what appears to be the same trend. I inquired about the chance of small operators setting up Merv Wilkinson type of logging operations and was pretty much laughed at. I guess the first thing the community is expected to do is bring in a bunch of contractors to cut and ship a big whack of wood out to pay for all the planning the forest ministry put into the community licence, not too mention royalties. So there's still no room for the Merv's of the world which I suspect the unions would be just fine with too.

[Hal 9000]

Last time I fished I was getting 40% of my catch minus fuel and validation. I find it really hard to believe anyone would fish anything for 15 cents per pound.

Anyway, you can thank the provincial govt and the fishermen themselves for letting foreign fish buyers buy all the licences and manipulate the prices.

[Hal 9000]

Canada exports billions in lumber every year, with exports growing.

Whats your point?

[eyeball]

Last time I fished I was getting 40% of my catch minus fuel and validation. I find it really hard to believe anyone would fish anything for 15 cents per pound.

I didn't have much choice at the time, I would have been dinged $3.80 a lb for releasing them.

Anyway, you can thank the provincial govt and the fishermen themselves for letting foreign fish buyers buy all the licences and manipulate the prices.

You mean the federal government right?

You can certainly thank some of the fishermen the government initially approached with the idea. I mean if someone from the government came along and effectively said 'hey, wanna be a millionaire'? What would you do?

[Wilber]

That may not be a good example.

Japan buys some milled lumber from Canada. Japn is a country like Canada in that most homes are wood frame. They also buy raw logs for a special purpose, and that are larger or better quality than what is available locally. Traditional Japanese post and beam structures(including Shinto temples) are still built using traditional precision handcrafted wood. They don't want milled lumber or precut beams, they do it themselves using hand tools on site c/w some amazing joinery. Maybe that is what was on the barge.

They also use targeted subsidies that favour the use of domestic lumber.