Gender Issues - The Miss America Pageant still exists...

[Bonam]

So WCR... how many children are actually groomed from a very young age to compete in these kinds of competitions? Any idea? I certainly don't know a single woman that ever had any interest in or preparation for participating in this type of competition. How wide of a problem is this? Or is it just a matter of a few crazy parents that do this grooming? Is the issue then not the craziness of the parents, who would surely find other ways to poorly raise their children whether or not a particular pageant existed or not?

As for it being terribly offensive to appreciate women for their looks... there are plenty of events where men are also judged by similarly superficial qualities. Some people in this world excel with amazing intelligence, others with great ability in performing, others with athletic skill or ability, others with musical talent, others with physical beauty, and other countless ways. These are all qualities, attributes of a human being that can be celebrated and admired (in either gender), and all come from a combination of innate characteristics as well as cultivation throughout one's life. Why is it wrong to appreciate a physically beautiful human being for this physical beauty? Why is valuing their ability to run quickly, to lift a large amount of weight, or to code a computer program necessarily a more virtuous reason for admiring them?

Edited September 25, 2014 by Bonam

[WestCoastRunner]

Why is it wrong to appreciate a physically beautiful human being for this physical beauty? Why is valuing their ability to run quickly, to lift a large amount of weight, or to code a computer program necessarily a more virtuous reason for admiring them?

This is why we need more women on this forum.

[Bonam]

This is why we need more women on this forum.

So would you care to answer the question at all?

[WestCoastRunner]

So would you care to answer the question at all?

Not really, because your comment is full of crap.

[Bonam]

Not really, because your comment is full of crap.

I don't see how. Oh well, it seems that, unfortunately, you are too emotionally involved in this topic to be able to reply civilly to a sincere and reasonable comment/question. You seem to lash out at anyone that doesn't fully agree with you on this subject rather than even attempting to explain why you disagree with their point of view.

[WestCoastRunner]

I don't see how. Oh well, it seems that, unfortunately, you are too emotionally involved in this topic to be able to reply civilly to a sincere and reasonable comment/question. You seem to lash out at anyone that doesn't fully agree with you on this subject rather than even attempting to explain why you disagree with their point of view.

I already gave my reasons why I think they are wrong and you are one of the men here who regularly objectifies women.

[Bonam]

I already gave my reasons why I think they are wrong and you are one of the men here who regularly objectifies women.

Is that so? Care to provide an example of me objectifying a woman?

[Hal 9000]

Oh, plenty of reasons:

Children are trained from a very young age to compete in these pageants and they rate their self worth on their looks, As they grow up and mature, they may lose their looks and end up in a tremendous downfall resulting in eating disorders and body image problems.

Young girls are sexualized while being groomed for competitions in beauty pageants, resulting in emotional and mental development problems.

It is a terribly offensive business by parading women on stage to be judged solely on their looks with a few psuedo intellectual questions. The fact is whoever has the most flawless beauty wins the prize.

These pageants do absolutely nothing to move women forward and does more harm than good when women are fighting to obtain equal pay for equal work, reduce domestic violence etc. The pageants continue to objectify women and promote men as patriarchy.

Ironically, the men I know all to a man hate seeing small girls involved with pageants. It's sick women who live their lives vicariously through their kids that is the problem.

[On Guard for Thee]

And sick people (both sexes) who choose to be "entertained" by adle minded fluff. Otherwise there ain't no market.

[Bonam]

So just to sum up my conversation with WCR:

- WCR made an unsupported claim that children are groomed from a young age for beauty pageants and that this is a serious social problem. I asked for support for this assertion and was ignored.

- I asked about why physical beauty is a less valid reason to admire someone than other qualities that are a combination of "nature" and "nurture" like physical strength or quickness and was told "that's full of crap" without any kind of intelligent reply.

- WCR made an assertion that I "regularly" objectify women without any support for said statement. Just as some kind of insult, I suppose.

[waldo]

Is that so? Care to provide an example of me objectifying a woman?

what separates "appreciation" from objectification?

Why is it wrong to appreciate a physically beautiful human being for this physical beauty?

[Bonam]

what separates "appreciation" from objectification?

I dunno, are people who watch sports objectifying the players? If not, why not? If so, then why is it alright to objectify these players? What is even meant by objectifying in this sense?

[waldo]

What is even meant by objectifying in this sense?

you took exception to another MLW member's statement that you '(regularily) objectify women'. In the, as you say, 'sense'... of your exception taking, to you, what meaning do you hold for the word objectify?

[Bonam]

you took exception to another MLW member's statement that you '(regularily) objectify women'. In the, as you say, 'sense'... of your exception taking, to you, what meaning do you hold for the word objectify?

Perhaps that is up to the member making the accusation to specify? But let's try the wikipedia definition:

In social philosophy, objectification means treating a person as a thing, without regard to their dignity.

According to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, a person is objectified if they are treated:^[1]

• as a tool for another's purposes (instrumentality);
• as if lacking in agency or self-determination (denial of autonomy, inertness);
• as if owned by another (ownership);
• as if interchangeable (fungibility);
• as if permissible to damage or destroy (violability);
• as if there is no need for concern for their feelings and experiences (denial of subjectivity).

Edited September 25, 2014 by Bonam

[waldo]

Perhaps that is up to the member making the accusation to specify?

I thought you could define what you took exception to... perhaps like, speaking to 'something' as a mere object. What is women parading down a ramp in bikini/stilleto heels a tribute to? You described it as, "appreciating a physically beautiful human being for their physical beauty". I simply asked you, "what separates "appreciation" from objectification?". I still haven't received an answer.

[Bonam]

I thought you could define what you took exception to... perhaps like, speaking to 'something' as a mere object. What is women parading down a ramp in bikini/stilleto heels a tribute to? You described it as, "appreciating a physically beautiful human being for their physical beauty". I simply asked you, "what separates "appreciation" from objectification?". I still haven't received an answer.

Nor have I received answers to the questions I asked WCR, such as what is the difference between admiring a human being for their beauty or admiring them from their strength or speed, such as an athlete. To me, it seems that they are "objectified" in precisely the same way, if not even more so... it is not their ineffable qualities as a human being that are of interest to the audience, but their speed, their strength, their skill, their quantifiable statistics. In fact, every player of a team sport has a whole list of stats attributed to them, like the list of properties of a computer or a car, or any other inanimate object. Why is it acceptable to "objectify" athletes in this way? Or is it not acceptable either? Or is simply appreciating someone for a measurable or physical attribute not really objectification at all? Or is it objectification but of a kind that applies to almost all humans in society?

Now, I'll come back to the earlier wikipedia definition I posted, where objectification comes down to:

1) instrumentality

2) denial of autonomy

3) ownership

4) fungibility

5) violability

6) denial of subjectivity

Let's look at these one by one:

1) Instrumentality: being used as a tool for another's purposes. In some sense, any employee of a company is subject to instrumentality: they are valued for the work they can do, the use they can provide to the company and its leaders or shareholders. Athletes and models are subject to instrumentality in this same way, but no more so than most other human beings.

2) Denial of autonomy: free individuals in Western nations are not subject to denial of autonomy. Every participant in a beauty pageant has the free choice to cease being a participant at any time, or never to have participated at all, or to do pretty much anything else they want.

3) Ownership: same as (2), where any attempt to assert ownership of another human being is attempted, it is illegal in most nations of the world, with of course some backward exceptions.

4) Fungibility: as (1), applicable to individuals in almost any line of work, except for only a very few with irreplaceable skills or knowledge.

5) Violability: no, it is not permissible to damage or destroy the women who participate in beauty pageants. In fact, the permissibility to damage or destroy is much more prevalent in many other lines of work where employees are subjected to considerable statistical risk.

6) Denial of subjectivity: We all realize that the feelings of other individuals exist, and the importance of these other feelings to us depends on the context. Some people may not particularly care about the feelings of others whose job it is to entertain them, such as athletes, performers, contestants, etc.

Based on quickly going through this list, I would say that participants in a beauty pageant are subject to (1),(4), and (6), but only in the same ways that people undertaking almost any other kind of work are.

So if these beauty pageants objectify contestants more than sports objectify athletes or construction companies objectify construction workers, I am eager to hear what the distinction is.

P.S. I find it kind of funny that I'm here in the role of "defending" beauty pageants. Personally, I think they are dumb, not particularly interesting, and honestly I've never seen more than a few seconds of one back in the days when I used to have a TV and would flip through channels. That being said, the arguments against them here are so weak that I can't help but probe into what it is that people actually find objectionable. Perhaps there are really good arguments for why they are bad, I just haven't seen these arguments presented here yet.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Bonam

[waldo]

Why is it acceptable to "objectify" athletes in this way? Or is it not acceptable either? Or is simply appreciating someone for a measurable or physical attribute not really objectification at all? Or is it objectification but of a kind that applies to almost all humans in society?

So if these beauty pageants objectify contestants more than sports objectify athletes or construction companies objectify construction workers, I am eager to hear what the distinction is.

is an athlete's skill or a worker's capability analogous to a woman's body image (real or perceived)? When, as you say, "measurable or physical attributes"... do you mean like, a woman's T&A? Certainly, many live vicariously through sports teams/stars; however, is that comparable to societal pressures driving many women (or many young girls, in particular) to attempt to attain an unreachable physical appearance, one simply not conducive to their underlying body makeup? And what feeds that driving societal pressure? ... does a beauty pageant contribute in that regard?

[Bonam]

is an athlete's skill or a worker's capability analogous to a woman's body image (real or perceived)? When, as you say, "measurable or physical attributes"... do you mean like, a woman's T&A? Certainly, many live vicariously through sports teams/stars; however, is that comparable to societal pressures driving many women (or many young girls, in particular) to attempt to attain an unreachable physical appearance, one simply not conducive to their underlying body makeup?

I would say that the pressures that many young athletes who try to train to compete at the top of their sport is likely just as powerful, pervasive, and unreachable for the vast majority, yes. Many young people face all kinds of societal pressures; the pressure to perfect one's own physical appearance is only one of many such possible pressures. Unhealthy body weight, unhealthy amounts of studying, unhealthy performance enhancing drugs, etc. These are all unhealthy effects of young people trying to compete with their peers to be the best at whatever it is they choose to pursue. Other than the somewhat arbitrary judgement that trying to perfect one's physical appearance is somehow less worthy or more superficial than trying to perfect one's physical strength or speed, I don't see a distinction here. They can be just as unhealthy, just as dangerous, just as psychologically traumatic, etc.

Is the idea that any pursuit undertaken by young people to such an extreme that they may do themselves harm should be curtailed?

And what feeds that driving societal pressure? ... does a beauty pageant contribute in that regard?

All aspects of a society contribute to the values of its members and the pressures that individuals may experience. Based on my limited experience, I would say that beauty pageants play an extremely minor role, except perhaps in a tiny tiny minority of households. This is one of the things I asked WCR about in my first reply to her... to provide some data as to what the societal effects of beauty pageants really are. Given her expressed interest in "women's issues", I would have expected her to be eager to present data on this topic (as you do on the topic of climate change, for example) to educate us neanderthals.

[waldo]

Is the idea that any pursuit undertaken by young people to such an extreme that they may do themselves harm should be curtailed?

All aspects of a society contribute to the values of its members and the pressures that individuals may experience. Based on my limited experience, I would say that beauty pageants play an extremely minor role, except perhaps in a tiny tiny minority of households. This is one of the things I asked WCR about in my first reply to her... to provide some data as to what the societal effects of beauty pageants really are.

economies of scale... you can't draw any kind of number equivalency between, say... those engaged in juicing steroids for speed/strength/bulk, and those taking actions to attempt to address body image concerns; notwithstanding the multiplying impacts that low self-esteem may contribute. The point isn't to even attempt to quantify the impact of beauty pageants (how would you???); they're simply a contributing factor, the degree to which is media coverage influenced. And, of course, they're symbolic of your stated "appreciation" and others viewed/claimed "objectification".

.

[Michael Hardner]

I dunno, are people who watch sports objectifying the players? If not, why not? If so, then why is it alright to objectify these players? What is even meant by objectifying in this sense?

It's such as stretch as to be a non-starter.

If there were women at each sporting event, prodding and parading the players, owning and controlling their opinions, judging their bodies and disqualifying them for having had sex in the past, all for an audience of women then maybe we'd have something like objectification.

[Michael Hardner]

In the ongoing discussion on these threads, I've heard that women's issues don't exist and that professional sports is akin to a beauty contest. That's pretty weak, and evidence to me that many men don't get it.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not about just men or women anymore...that's so 1970's !

[Boges]

economies of scale... you can't draw any kind of number equivalency between, say... those engaged in juicing steroids for speed/strength/bulk, and those taking actions to attempt to address body image concerns; notwithstanding the multiplying impacts that low self-esteem may contribute. The point isn't to even attempt to quantify the impact of beauty pageants (how would you???); they're simply a contributing factor, the degree to which is media coverage influenced. And, of course, they're symbolic of your stated "appreciation" and others viewed/claimed "objectification".

.

I would argue mainstream media and the fashion industry do more about to affect the self-esteems of both women and men than any beauty pageant.

[waldo]

I would argue mainstream media and the fashion industry do more about to affect the self-esteems of both women and men than any beauty pageant.

relative to a beauty pageant being referenced as a symbolic contributing influence, in your point to argue for a quantified comparative measure, would you be arguing a point that's actually been raised? ... granted, you don't actually say whether you'd be arguing for a positive or negative impacting affect on self-esteem

.

[Boges]

relative to a beauty pageant being referenced as a symbolic contributing influence, in your point to argue for a quantified comparative measure, would you be arguing a point that's actually been raised? ... granted, you don't actually say whether you'd be arguing for a positive or negative impacting affect on self-esteem

You can't quantify something like that. I will say that Beauty Pageants are relegated to fringe of media exposure where as people who look similar to these contestants are celebrated in all forms of mainstream media.

Watching TV, reading magazines or going to the movies you'd think that a good majority of the population looked this way.