War Against ISIL

[dre]

I find it interesting that people seem to recognize that forcing different ethnic/religious groups to live together is a bad idea when discussing situations in the Middle-East or other parts of the world. And yet when it comes to Western countries, the same people keep telling us that the best thing we could possibly do is have all these different ethnic/religious groups, with their age old conflicts, living together. If "multiculturalism" is such a great thing, why isn't it working in places like Iraq and Syria, with their rich tapestries of multiple cultures?

In Iraq and Syria you have situations where one sect of a religion has used force to rule another sect for decades, and the vast majority of the population belongs to either one sect or the other. Thats an obvious recipe for disaster and you are seeing that play out. Many of the borders in the middle east are in the wrong place and were not created naturally but instead were arbitrarily drawn by invaders.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges... to my knowledge, in western countries sectarian conflict is almost unheard of. There IS problems among immigrants to be sure... and in my opinion you should never allow more than a slow trickle of members of any ethnic or linguistic group.

It seems to me like conflict is reduced by letting ethnic/religious groups that have conflicts with each other live separately, having their own sovereign states where they can devise laws to best reflect their majority culture and values. Once you have all these sovereign states that are internally homogeneous and stable, all you have to do is keep peace between the states, which is easier to do than trying to keep peace between thousands of separate factions within heterogeneous states.

I think thats true for the most part. Its very hard to keep a nation together that has large groups of people with different language or ethnicity. We BARELY have managed to keep our large french minority part of the nation even though we treat them pretty well and Canada is a rich liberal democracy. Look whats happening in the Ukraine, Iraq, Syria... Look what happened in the balkans.

But those are situations where there are large groups of different peoples that are for the most part segregated. The western model is to allow a slow trickle of people from all different backgrounds. Its not without its problems, but for the most part it seems to work ok. I dont see Ukrainians and Russians, or Sunnis and Shia killing each other in Ontario or BC or Alberta. The problems we DO have with immigrants are totally different. We have problems with gangs, and organized crime etc, and we have had those problems with immigrants that chinese, japanese, irish, italian, etc

Edited February 6, 2015 by dre

[Big Guy]

I think it is important that most immigrants coming to live in Canada are either fleeing something bad in their old country or they are seeking something better here that they cannot get there. I believe most are quite content to leave the old hostilities at home and adapt to the new life. There are always flame ups like the Macedonian/Greek debacle in Toronto on what group a statue of Alexander the great represents. But that squabble fizzed out without violence when the fanatics on both sides saw that they did not have the support of the folks they thought they represented.

The second generation are now becoming adults and most reject the emotional cultural hates of the past. I believe that this fear of radicalization and terrorism is way overblown and being used as a wedge issue by politicians.

There are about 50 fatalities in Canada yearly involving trespassing near railway tracks and another 30 fatalities involving vehicles at railway crossings - that does not include about 50 debilitating injuries yearly. Last year there were two deaths (of military associated personal) in Canada. Looks to me like you have a 40 times better chance of getting killed by a train than by a terrorist.

About 10 Canadians are killed and 150 injured every year by lightning.

[eyeball]

Ah yes, without the Big Bad West these s***holes would be paradise. Go figure.

No, there's also the Big Bad Eurasians and other assorted Earthlings.

[Big Guy]

Looks like those ISIL videos are having an effect. The UAE, one of the few Arab members of the coalition, has just jumped ship. It has stated that the lack of any rescue process for downed pilots is not acceptable and they are pulling out.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2939732/UAE-stopped-taking-coalition-airstrikes-Syria-Jordanian-pilot-shot-down.html

The coalition needs as many Middle East partners as possible to maintain any credibility as having local support. This is not a good sign of coalition unity.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, the UAE has deployed a squadron of F-16s to Jordan, to help in that nation's intensified attacks against ISIS.

Jordan is really, really, really pissed off at ISIS now.

[jbg]

Actually, the UAE has deployed a squadron of F-16s to Jordan, to help in that nation's intensified attacks against ISIS.

Jordan is really, really, really pissed off at ISIS now.

Anyone who remembers the "Black September" of 1970 would know the extraordinary brutality of the upcoming actions. Jordan can be quite effective when it needs to be.

[Rue]

The fact though is JBG no amount of F16's is that effective in fighting ISIL or any other terror cell. Its better than nothing but its not a good tactic to go against terrorists. You can not effectively root out terrorists withjust fighter jets. In fact its a public relations exercise for news casts. It makes the West look like they are doing something when they are not doing what really has to be done.It is the safest way to assure Western soldiers do not die but it sure as hell does not effectively deal with terrorists.

In fact we saw how LBJ's policy of trying to bomb North Vietnam out of existence did not rid it of the Viet Cong. Air warfare did not rid Cambodia o the Khmer Rouge, Afghanistan of the Taliban, Hezbollah from Iran. It makes a lot of noise, blows up infrastructure, kills civilians, does wipe out some depots and sites but for the most part its ineffective.

Sure its necessary to blow up logistic and oil supply lines but its like spraying raid on roaches. The majority scurry away and regroup.

You have to go in on the ground, in small fast moving commando units, strike by surprise, and use direct lethal force.

That is something no Western government can sell to its voters at this point. Loud kabooms sell, men on the ground do not.

That unfortunately is the cold hard reality. The air mission is a joke to terrorists, It means the West spends a fortune in munition and logistics flying these jets, and runs out of steam when it runs out of money and weapons.

Jordan does not have the financial resources capable of sustaining a prolonged air war and neither does any other nation and terrorists sit and wait it out bleeding the West financially with these sortes.

Me I am dead against using expensive state of the art fighter jets alone against terrorists. To me it is necessarily ineffective.

It can't substitute for men on the ground.

You want to get rid of terrorists, then you fight them on the ground. You have to be willing to go into the holes after them, track them down hiding in schools, hospitals, people's homes. Its about door to door warfare where civilians will die.

The question is-is the West willing to do that? Probably not.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

In fact we saw how LBJ's policy of trying to bomb North Vietnam out of existence did not rid it of the Viet Cong. Air warfare did not rid Cambodia o the Khmer Rouge, Afghanistan of the Taliban, Hezbollah from Iran. It makes a lot of noise, blows up infrastructure, kills civilians, does wipe out some depots and sites but for the most part its ineffective.

Rue's response to the 'we' in another thread. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24227-terrorist-attack-in-tel-aviv/page-6

Who is we? Are you Palestinian now? Are you and Palestinians one and the same melded in one common psychic bond?

Or do you speak on behalf of "everyone" like another poster on this board?

What is it that people when expressing their subjective opinions on this board, need to describe themselves as "we"?

Can you please speak for yourself your Majesty and avoid the Royal prerogative. Thank you.

Clearly your perceptions are far different than a Palestinian's living on the West Bank. You don't live there. You make assumptions you understand what it is like to live there based on the internet.

Edited February 11, 2015 by GostHacked

[dre]

You want to get rid of terrorists, then you fight them on the ground. You have to be willing to go into the holes after them, track them down hiding in schools, hospitals, people's homes. Its about door to door warfare where civilians will die.

The question is-is the West willing to do that? Probably not.

No, they probably arent, and thats a good thing because it would be really stupid. ISIL has been around in Iraq for nearly 10 years and western nations eventually gave up trying to defeat them and put them on the payroll. If we sent in ground troops they would simply melt into these various Sunni communities and we would be facing the same prolonged urban insurgency that the US and its allies failed to defeat before. And even if we beat them the underlying problem remains... if we want to force Sunnis in Iraq and Syria to accept rule by Iranian backed Shia, then we will have to stay there FOREVER.

[marcus]

From useless airstrikes to useless ground attack.

It has not worked before and it will not work in the future. When will these short-sighted crusaders learn that perpetual wars DO NOT WORK? When will you learn that it's the West's policies which are the root of the problem? When you colonize, prop up dictators, selfishly drain the area of its resources and then put on a show, annoyingly pretending that you have some sort of moral authority, you create more feeling of vengeance and you fan the flames of terrorism.

The colonizers used to solely rely on propping up dictators to quash the basic rights of those "niggers" and "sand niggers". Now that it's not working that well, they are mixing it with creating an environment where sectarian lines are drawn even bolder.

ISIS is the perfect answer to the neverending wars, which feed the hungry military industrial complex and it's perfect for the Saudis, the Iranian mullahs to continue their oppressive rule over the regular folks. They all need enemies: Sunni Islam, Shiite Islam, Western infidels, Zionist colonizer - Why would these people in power want to stop the conflicts? They need these conflicts to continue to feed themselves.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's back to the future for President Obama, who has now officially requested war powers to engage ISIS.

President Obama asked Congress Wednesday for formal authority to use the U.S. military to combat the Islamic State, calling the group “a grave threat to . . . the national security of the United States and its allies and partners.”

The request for a new Authorization for the Use of Military Force, or AUMF, marks the first time Obama has requested approval for military action in his six-year presidency and comes more than six months after the start of U.S. airstrikes against the Islamic State.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-makes-formal-request-for-war-authorization-against-islamic-state/2015/02/11/881cc0b0-b1f7-11e4-886b-c22184f27c35_story.html?hpid=z3

What previous U.S. president requested an AUMF ? Hint: rhymes with "tush".

[bush_cheney2004]

.... When will you learn that it's the West's policies which are the root of the problem? When you colonize, prop up dictators, selfishly drain the area of its resources and then put on a show, annoyingly pretending that you have some sort of moral authority, you create more feeling of vengeance and you fan the flames of terrorism.

Seems to have worked just fine in North America...just ask First Nations.

[dre]

Seems to have worked just fine in North America...just ask First Nations.

Wow, that was stupid

[jbg]

You want to get rid of terrorists, then you fight them on the ground. You have to be willing to go into the holes after them, track them down hiding in schools, hospitals, people's homes. Its about door to door warfare where civilians will die.

The question is-is the West willing to do that? Probably not.

Jordan sure is.

[eyeball]

So's Obama, Congress and the Senate. Who ever said Obama was a lame duck anyway? You go boy!

Edited February 12, 2015 by eyeball

[GostHacked]

ISIS takes over a small town near a US military base. They even snuck onto the base wearing Iraqi uniforms.

Good thing that Iraq was pacified so it would not be a hotspot of terrorism again.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-fighters-sneak-iraqi-base-wearing-iraqi-army/story?id=28944455

ISIS controls major parts of Anbar Province in western Iraq where Al Asad airbase is located. The U.S. military is using the large 25-square mile base as a training facility to train Iraqi troops and assist with Iraqi training of Sunni tribesmen to fight against ISIS.

For several months the base has been a frequent target of ISIS mortar fire, though U.S. military officials say it is ineffective because the fire is not targeted.

U.S. officials also say that Iraqi troops were also making progress in clearing ISIS fighters from the nearby town of al Baghdadi, close to the Al Asad airbase.

On Thursday, ISIS fighters who had been besieging the town for months were able to make into the town and take over the local Iraqi police station. Also Thursday a U.S. military spokesperson confirmed that “there has been heavy fighting in the al Baghdadi area” -- but directed specific questions about what was going on there to the Iraqis.

[Big Guy]

When (and if) coalition ground forces invade Iraq and Syria, how are they going to identify and know the difference between ISIS fighters, Sunni civilians supporting ISIS, Sunni civilians not supporting ISIS. How does one defeat an enemy which you cannot identify?

When the Americans invaded Iraq and were close to declaring victory (again) they did find thousands of uniforms of the Republican Guard, the 60,000 elite force close to Hussein. These Republican Guards had "disappeared". The Americans derided these "runaways and cowards" from not staying to get wiped out by the Americans. Guess where ISIS came from?

I have no doubt that the coalition can gather hundreds of thousands of troops and with overwhelming military might attack the areas which ISIS currently controls. And what will happen? They will find that the "runaways and cowards" have filtered back into the population and are quite content to wait - until next time. That part of the world is very, very patient.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Big Guy

[GostHacked]

When (and if) coalition ground forces invade Iraq and Syria, how are they going to identify and know the difference between ISIS fighters, Sunni civilians supporting ISIS, Sunni civilians not supporting ISIS. How does one defeat an enemy which you cannot identify?

We never get a clear answer on that. It's a question that has been lingering since 9/11. How do you defeat terrorists?

When the Americans invaded Iraq and were close to declaring victory (again) they did find thousands of uniforms of the Republican Guard, the 60,000 elite force close to Hussein. These Republican Guards had "disappeared". The Americans derided these "runaways and cowards" from not staying to get wiped out by the Americans. Guess where ISIS came from?

I've put out that notion of them being former military personelle under Husseing's rule. It was laughed at.

Edited February 13, 2015 by GostHacked

[Big Guy]

People who know very little about an issue tend to laugh at those who do know. It relieves them from having to investigate, analyse and make their own conclusions. I can understand that kind of approach from anonymous posters with their own agenda but I cannot understand why American commanders would assume that a 60,000 elite fighting force would disappear.

And a few years later, these same bright lights would wonder how a thousands strong fighting force could appear "out of nowhere", battle hardened, militarily trained with a sophisticated command structure and wipe out the hundreds of thousands American trained Iraqi army using American armaments and weapons against them.

These are now the same bright lights that are leading the fight against ISIS - and we are following their lead.

What does that make us?

[bush_cheney2004]

...What does that make us?

Not the leader...as usual.

[-TSS-]

What's this thing about them hating to be referred or called as Daesh or something similar? As a result everyone who hates them calls them just that.

[GostHacked]

Egypt now getting in on the ISIS action.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31483631

Egypt says it has bombed Islamic State targets in Libya, hours after the militants released video of apparent beheadings of 21 Egyptian Christians.

State TV said the dawn strikes had targeted camps, training sites and weapons storage areas. A second wave of strikes was reported hours later.

Libyan officials said Egypt hit targets in the militant-held city of Derna.

The strikes came amid widespread condemnation of the killings. The US and UN described them as "cowardly".

A video emerged on Sunday showing militants forcing a group of men to the ground and decapitating them.

The kidnapped Egyptian workers, all Coptic Christians, were seized in separate incidents in December and January from the coastal town of Sirte in eastern Libya, under the control of Islamist groups.

The things are going to see this year will make the past years seem like a Disney park ride.

[Big Guy]

More indiscriminate bombings, more martyrs, more fighters joining ISIS.

These are ISIL folks are far more savvy then we in the West give them credit. The more killings they video, the more outrage, the dumber the response and the more we play into their hands. There is an interesting explanation of why they publicize what they do;

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/10/islamic-state-plays-on-humanitys-death-instinct/

There is a reason for everything they do and it is always done to satisfy their agenda - and we keep falling for it.

[jbg]

This is no different from the tribal savagery that always made much of the Middle East very dangerous. Back in the day they knew how to deal with the savagery. Hint, it was not Presidential speeches.

[Big Guy]

That "savagery" is a military and recruiting tactic that is working. It is estimated that about 1,000 new recruits are joining every month and I do not think that the coalition is killing that many a month. Maybe that is why they are now in Libya.

To consider this to be "tribal savagery" is a grave mistake. This is a sophisticated, social media savvy group that has the West in chaos and playing right into their hands.