Ferguson unrest

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

We know the cop was hurt. We know Brown was not adverse to throwing his considerable weight around. We know he'd just done a robbery, likely not his first. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest he was less than cooperative with the cop.
WE know the cop didn't know of the robbery.

Do you want to call him "boy"? If I called him boy you'd probably say "Hey, he was a MAN!"

In fact, he was a legal adult. So why do people keep calling him a kid?

He was six foot four, three hundred pounds. The term 'kid' doesn't fit very well.
OK we know he was 18.

Really ?What happened to 'he was trying to surrender'? What happened to "He had his hands up'?

In fact, we KNOW from the autopsy the family itself did, that he was shot from the front, and that his arms were NOT raised.

According to the doc who did the autopsy we do NOT know where his arms were.

Argus · August 18, 2014

According to the doc who did the autopsy we do NOT know where his arms were.

The doc hired by the family. But look at the picture. He had three bullet wounds to his arm, near the wrist, near the elbow, and higher up.

He was shot from the front.

Can you suggest how to reconcile this? If his arms were raised the wounds would all be to the back of his arm.

scribblet · August 18, 2014

Pathologist says Brown was shot from the front and the head wound suggests he was leaning forward (could be charging)

Surely by the time the third autopsy is done there will be degradation of evidence.

There`s info here that suggests the witness were lying . A previously unnoticed detail in a background conversion of a video taken minutes after the Ferguson shooting could change the course of the investigation into Mike Brown’s death. (if it's even looked at by the authorities)

The original video poster appears sympathetic to the narrative that Mike Brown was shot unarmed with his hands in the air. But he unknowingly picks up conversation between a man who saw the altercation and another neighbor. Eyewitness: Michael Brown Ran from Cop Car, 'Doubled Back' and Charged at Officers. It also so far corroborates what the radio caller said in a previous link I posted.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

The doc hired by the family. But look at the picture. He had three bullet wounds to his arm, near the wrist, near the elbow, and higher up.

He was shot from the front.

Can you suggest how to reconcile this? If his arms were raised the wounds would all be to the back of his arm.

Very easily: he could have had his arms raised before turning to face the cop as the cop began firing. What remains to be seen and will be more informative is whether or not there are powder burns on Brown.

cybercoma · August 18, 2014

Lots of people don't like the idea of Tazers because it gives the cop an easy method of incapacitating someone. It gives them more a reason not to try to peacefully resolve the situation.

Oh. You mean like the guns they used to murder an unarmed teenager?

Boges · August 18, 2014

Oh. You mean like the guns they used to murder an unarmed teenager?

I'm not defending the cop that shot here.

Though with the size of the victim here, I suspect a Tazer wouldn't have been so effective. If it's true he was charging the cop, we don't have concrete evidence that's the case though.

cybercoma · August 18, 2014

Pathologist says Brown was shot from the front and the head wound suggests he was leaning forward (could be charging)

Head down, charging at them like a wild animal, eh?

Derek 2.0 · August 18, 2014

Very easily: he could have had his arms raised before turning to face the cop as the cop began firing. What remains to be seen and will be more informative is whether or not there are powder burns on Brown.

No powder burns.

Hal 9000 · August 18, 2014

Do we know what calibre of gun was used? I suspect 9mm due to the amount of shots it took to bring him down. This is where I think a .45 is better gun, one shot to the arm area and he likely would stopped.

At any rate, my take on the wounds is that his arms may have been outstretched (in the way that one does while challenging an opponent), a few shots hit his right arm - he keeps coming, one hits his eye - his head drops and the final one goes through the top of his head.

If he had his arms up, that right arm would dropped as soon as that first shot hit his arm (even with a 9mm) - therefore, I don't think his arms were up at all

Hal 9000 · August 18, 2014

No powder burns.

Baden didn't inspect his clothing.

Hal 9000 · August 18, 2014

I'm not defending the cop that shot here.

Though with the size of the victim here, I suspect a Tazer wouldn't have been so effective. If it's true he was charging the cop, we don't have concrete evidence that's the case though.

Anyone who saw "The Hangover" knows that.

Derek 2.0 · August 18, 2014

Do we know what calibre of gun was used? I suspect 9mm due to the amount of shots it took to bring him down. This is where I think a .45 is better gun, one shot to the arm area and he likely would stopped.

Likely 9mm or .40 S&W…Doubtful .45ACP, since there is a significant decrease in magazine capacity, which is a factor in determining a service pistol…….Another factor to consider, which I assume will come out with a toxicology report, is to determine if he was high on something like PCP.

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

Something else that I so far haven't heard is how many shots in total were fired, not just how many hit the victom. That might go some way to confirming or denying eyewitness reports as to when the shooting actually started. Wouldn't a cop be required to keep track of his rounds? I know that in UN missions I've served on it is required to account for each one.

Boges · August 18, 2014

Something else that I so far haven't heard is how many shots in total were fired, not just how many hit the victom. That might go some way to confirming or denying eyewitness reports as to when the shooting actually started. Wouldn't a cop be required to keep track of his rounds? I know that in UN missions I've served on it is required to account for each one.

What if he missed a few times? It's clear he was shooting to kill. What's up for debate is if he had proper motive to. If it can be found a 300 lb man was charging him, that could provide a decent motive. At least one to keep him from being charged with first or second degree murder.

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

What if he missed a few times? It's clear he was shooting to kill. What's up for debate is if he had proper motive to. If it can be found a 300 lb man was charging him, that could provide a decent motive. At least one to keep him from being charged with first or second degree murder.

If he missed him a few times it wouldn't necessarily be conclusive of anything. However, various reports say the cop started firing while the guy was running away. Logically you would more likely miss a man fleeing away from you than one standing still facing you. If he was firing as teh guy was running away, I'd say the cop has a problem.

Boges · August 18, 2014

Logically you would more likely miss a man fleeing away from you than one standing still facing you. If he was firing as teh guy was running away, I'd say the cop has a problem.

He should be given the death penalty if that's the case. In absence of real info people are making stuff up though. I suppose video of the incident like with Sammy Yatim in Toronto would provide clarity.

Hal 9000 · August 18, 2014

If he missed him a few times it wouldn't necessarily be conclusive of anything. However, various reports say the cop started firing while the guy was running away. Logically you would more likely miss a man fleeing away from you than one standing still facing you. If he was firing as teh guy was running away, I'd say the cop has a problem.

Reports also claim that he was shot in the back - he wasn't. Reports also claim that Wilson grabbed a 6'4"+ 300lb dude (by the neck) from sitting in a squad car - very improbable.

Oh yeah, and if we believe the reports, he would've done this with his left hand. I don't think there is any cop (or any person) that would ever consider doing this.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Hal 9000

Big Guy · August 18, 2014

Any truthful eyewitness account or video can show what transpired. But guilt or culpability is based on intent. Did the officer consider his life to be in danger? If he did and followed procedures to deal with such a situation then he was doing his job. If he did not then it is obvious that the shooting was not warranted and some kind of charge will result.

But - how is the intention of the officer going to be evaluated?

Remember that if there is any doubt, then the accused is considered innocent.

For this reason, almost all police shootings end up with dismissal of any charges against the officer.

Boges · August 18, 2014

For this reason, almost all police shootings end up with dismissal of any charges against the officer.

If the Yatim shooter, James Forcillo gets off, I would support rioting in the streets of Toronto.

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

He should be given the death penalty if that's the case. In absence of real info people are making stuff up though. I suppose video of the incident like with Sammy Yatim in Toronto would provide clarity.

Yes it's almost hard to believe these days in such a situation someone wouldn't have had at least some cell phone video.

On Guard for Thee · August 18, 2014

Any truthful eyewitness account or video can show what transpired. But guilt or culpability is based on intent. Did the officer consider his life to be in danger? If he did and followed procedures to deal with such a situation then he was doing his job. If he did not then it is obvious that the shooting was not warranted and some kind of charge will result.

But - how is the intention of the officer going to be evaluated?

Remember that if there is any doubt, then the accused is considered innocent.

For this reason, almost all police shootings end up with dismissal of any charges against the officer.

I don't think there is any doubt as to his intent. He's dead with 6 bullet holes in him. But you're correct in that he has the right to protect himself or others he may feel are threatened. He could also get away with it if he knew who he was shooting at was a "known felon" I don't think in this case he has a hope of persuing that one.

Hal 9000 · August 18, 2014

I don't think there is any doubt as to his intent. He's dead with 6 bullet holes in him. But you're correct in that he has the right to protect himself or others he may feel are threatened. He could also get away with it if he knew who he was shooting at was a "known felon" I don't think in this case he has a hope of persuing that one.

If Brown at any time reached for a cop's gun, the all bets are off and that cop has to know his life is in danger.

Boges · August 18, 2014

If Brown at any time reached for a cop's gun, the all bets are off and that cop has to know his life is in danger.

Good luck proving that.

Boges · August 18, 2014

I think the shooting and the reason for it are largely a Maguffin in this debate. The protestor response and the police response are the true culturally relevant things that will come of this event.

Whether the Cop or Brown are at blame here seem almost immaterial at this point. Why are protestors looting? and why are the cops acting like military thugs?