Ferguson unrest

[Argus]

So when the cop is in the right, we see video evidence right away. Where is the CCTV footage of Brown? Most apartment buildings there would have several CCTV cameras.

Not true. That tends to happen more in the higher end places.

It's a good thing there was CCTV footage at the gas station since it turns out that the cop had been given a bodycam but wasn't wearing it. People would have screamed bloody murder over that.

And you'll note the presence of video hasn't stopped the crowds and violence and demonstrations.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Argus

[eyeball]

The left and right viewpoints regarding these issues are just too far apart now for any meaningful discussion.

Just these issues? For all practical purposes the right and left hate each other's guts right across the board.

[Wilber]

Just these issues? For all practical purposes the right and left hate each other's guts right across the board.

What about all the people who aren't "right" or "left" and are just trying to make some sense of all this crap.

[eyeball]

I think those are made up of the left and conservatives.

In my view right wingers are a different animal altogether - they're way too fond of increasing the power of the state and especially it's institutions of enforcement, security and surveillance. They just can't get enough of it.

Why conservatives are so willing to crawl under the same tent at election time is troubling. I wish they'd get over their fear of FPTP so right wingers could go form their own party.

[cybercoma]

Leaving aside the fact that sort of creative and dishonest editing is against the rules, you really ought to be embarrassed about how pathetically dumb your effort at discrediting what I wrote was.

I mean, seriously, is that the best you can offer?

Actually, what you wrote was painfully stupid. Unless you actually meant that they're all of those things at once, which is even more ridiculous than the moronic tautology.

And cry me a god damned river about the rules, Argus. You've been all over this forum insulting people in damn near every post for the last month. Suck it up.

Edited December 24, 2014 by cybercoma

[TimG]

Why conservatives are so willing to crawl under the same tent at election time is troubling. I wish they'd get over their fear of FPTP so right wingers could go form their own party.

It is an interesting dilemma for anyone who an economic and social libertarian because supporting any party requires that some values be compromised. For me, in Canada, the ability of the government to restrict personal liberties in the name of security and/or morals is constrained by the constitution. But the constitution places no restrictions on the ability of the government to restrict economic freedom. For that reason it makes more sense for libertarians in Canada to support the Conservatives even though some of the policies are odious.

That said, any system that produces perpetual minorities will be even worse for economic liberties since keeping minority coalitions together in this country requires increased spending and increased regulation.

Edited December 24, 2014 by TimG

[Argus]

Just these issues? For all practical purposes the right and left hate each other's guts right across the board.

I don't hate the Left, I simply pity them for being emotionally overwrought nitwits.

[eyeball]

You can bet they feel the very same way towards you for the exact same reason. I mean, why wouldn't they?

[Argus]

You can bet they feel the very same way towards you for the exact same reason. I mean, why wouldn't they?

The Left don't feel the Right are emotionally overwrought, they think we're cold-hearted, greedy brutes.

[Michael Hardner]

we're cold-hearted, greedy brutes.

We ? You're not exactly aligned with the right - given your past support of the public sector, economic isolationist ideas to name a few positions that come to mind.

[Shady]

I don't hate the Left, I simply pity them for being emotionally overwrought nitwits.

Definitely emotionally overwrought, with white guilt. I wish they'd examine that concept as much as they do white privilege.

[Argus]

We ? You're not exactly aligned with the right - given your past support of the public sector, economic isolationist ideas to name a few positions that come to mind.

He seems to putting me into that category and it's not one that bothers me. Friends interested in politics have described me as either a very liberal conservative or a very conservative liberal. <shrug>

[Wilber]

I think those are made up of the left and conservatives.

In my view right wingers are a different animal altogether - they're way too fond of increasing the power of the state and especially it's institutions of enforcement, security and surveillance. They just can't get enough of it.

Why conservatives are so willing to crawl under the same tent at election time is troubling. I wish they'd get over their fear of FPTP so right wingers could go form their own party.

So only those on the right side of the spectrum can have extreme positions in your opinion. I would dissagree.

[eyeball]

No, I said most of those on the right are authoritarian by nature, or maybe its nurture, who really cares when the result is the same?

[Wilber]

No, I said most of those on the right are authoritarian by nature, or maybe its nurture, who really cares when the result is the same?

That's like saying most on the left are borderline commies but you make no mention of left leaning people with extreme positions.

[Black Dog]

Not always, but yes, generally the issue with police is showing motivation, which is a fundamental part of our judicial system. They're the only group which is actually permitted to use force on others, even deadly force. There's also a tendency on the part of the public to consider certain 'understandable errors' when they believe a reasonable person might have felt threatened under the same circumstances.

You and I both know what we're talking about goes well beyond a few understandable errors.

And, of course, the police don't have criminal records. Most of those arrested for murders do, save for family situations.

Because it's virtually impossible to convict a cop.

Crime is not always born out of poverty. You are a lot safer walking in poor areas in India and Africa than in poor areas in the United States.

Cite? And also: are you safer walking through the New Dehli slums or the posh bits?

There is a tolerance for violence in much of the Black community, especially among young men who, most unfortunately, tend to grow up with rappers and gang bangers as their only male role models.

Which is almost completely due to socioeconomic cirumstances.

[eyeball]

That's like saying most on the left are borderline commies but you make no mention of left leaning people with extreme positions.

I was taking it as a given that any and all left leaning people are extreme.

[Wilber]

I was taking it as a given that any and all left leaning people are extreme.

So how does one present any opinion at all without being labelled?

[Scotty]

So how does one present any opinion at all without being labelled?

One does not. The best one can hope for is to not allow ones passions to be inflamed by others whose passions have overcome them.

Everyone on this web site, so far as I can see, Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, and yes, even those NDP types, means well. Some people are more passionate about their beliefs than others. But every one of them believes that their ideas, their ideology, their political program, platform or policy, will leave the world in better shape than it was found.

That being the case, they find themselves frustrated at those who oppose such policies and plans. For are they not standing in the way of that which will help make the world, in some small way, at least, a better place!? Who would oppose such splendid policies but one who does not wish to make the world a better place! Someone bad, of course! Someone reprehensible! So they fling unfriendly and unflattering terms at the fellow in their frustration.

But they do mean well. The problem is they don't seem to realize the other fellow means well, too.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Scotty

[poochy]

The road to hell and what not...sometimes the efforts to help everyone that certain people think need helping ultimately hurts more than forcing them to find a better path for themselves. Our society has become noting but more liberal, but there never seems to be a point at which it becomes liberal enough, perhaps it's time those people look around and think about the type of society they are building.

[jbg]

It has already been explained that systemic and institutional racism is an explanation not a cause. It's not predestination here. It is a social theory that explains what is clearly observed, just like gravity explains why things fall to the ground. But that's ok. Just keep saying racism doesn't exist. You've yet to offer a better explanation. You say poverty and education, but why are black people disproportionately poor and receiving worse educations? How is that explained? Institutional and systemic racism.

How about a better explanation but one that applies only to the minorities that don't succeed? My explanation is that when a mother starts giving birth at age 16, to babies with multiple fathers, and often as many as eight or nine babies, the children have no guidance. There's no one helpiung them in homework. There's no atmosphere conducive to study and learning. There's no sense of awe with regard to the learning process. You could stick McGill professors in front of these children and it wouldn't make a difference in many cases.

There are many minority families that create a better environment. There are also many homes where the mothers or parents struggle against all odds to create a better environment. The problem here though is that the schools will still be disorderly and chaotic. Students that do succeed are accused by their peers of "acting white" or "being white."

Mac Davis wrote a song made famous by Elvis Presly, "In the Ghetto." This song says it best:

As the snow flies

On a cold and gray Chicago mornin'

A poor little baby child is born

In the ghetto

And his mama cries

Cause if there's one thing that she don't need

It's another hungry mouth to feed

In the ghetto

People, don't you understand

The child needs a helping hand

Or he'll grow to be an angry young man some day

Take a look at you and me,

Are we too blind to see,

Do we simply turn our heads

And look the other way

Well the world turns

And a hungry little boy with a runny nose

Plays in the street as the cold wind blows

In the ghetto

And his hunger burns

So he starts to roam the streets at night

And he learns how to steal

And he learns how to fight

In the ghetto

Then one night in desperation

A young man breaks away

He buys a gun, steals a car,

Tries to run, but he don't get far

And his mama cries

As a crowd gathers 'round an angry young man

Face down on the street with a gun in his hand

In the ghetto

As her young man dies,

On a cold and gray Chicago mornin',

Another little baby child is born

In the ghetto

And his mama cries

Songwriters: MAC DAVIS

In The Ghetto lyrics © ELVIS PRESLEY MUSIC

[eyeball]

So how does one present any opinion at all without being labelled?

One doesn't.

[Big Guy]

I agree with jbg that a major problem with blacks in the USA and Canada is the single parent family. It has become a cultural norm to have children with no ability to financially look after them. As a caring society, not wanting to punish the child for the poor choices of the mother, we set up social programs that actually encourage having more children.

We are also starting to see children having children. It appears that young girls are beginning puberty at 9 and 10 years old and becoming mothers at 16. I see where males are introduced as "this is the baby daddy of my youngest".

The only answer I can see is education and mentoring. To decrease the financial safety net only punishes the child. The worst result is that it is becoming a generational normalcy. The unwed mother becomes the mother of an unwed mother becomes the mother of an unwed mother etc.

Perhaps the answer, as cruel as it may sound, is to look at the orphanage system. If the parent cannot adequately parent a child then the state may be forced to just to break the cycle.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Big Guy

[jbg]

I agree with jbg that a major problem with blacks in the USA and Canada is the single parent family. It has become a cultural norm to have children with no ability to financially look after them. As a caring society, not wanting to punish the child for the poor choices of the mother, we set up social programs that actually encourage having more children.

We are also starting to see children having children. It appears that young girls are beginning puberty at 9 and 10 years old and becoming mothers at 16. I see where males are introduced as "this is the baby daddy of my youngest".

It's the number of children per single parent as much as the mother's age.

The only answer I can see is education and mentoring. To decrease the financial safety net only punishes the child. The worst result is that it is becoming a generational normalcy. The unwed mother becomes the mother of an unwed mother becomes the mother of an unwed mother etc.

It's hard to educate mothers who don't want the instruction. The problem is, unfortunately, that sex is the only readily available recreation around. And better yet it's apparently free. Until it isn't. And as politically incorrect to say, the woman may not have much role in whether to consento to the sex. A muscular 16 year old male usually gets his way.

Perhaps the answer, as cruel as it may sound, is to look at the orphanage system. If the parent cannot adequately parent a child then the state may be forced to just to break the cycle.

I don't disagree. It may just come to that. Edited December 25, 2014 by jbg

[TimG]

Students that do succeed are accused by their peers of "acting white" or "being white."

My jaw dropped when Blackdog tried to claim a business suit was "white" clothing. His attitude is typical of the attitudes within these communities that holds them back. It is not the racism from outside that causes problems. Edited December 25, 2014 by TimG