The middle east problem

[Black Dog]

Except Canadians have formed into a country in the past 150 odd years.

So?

Our culture, though similar in many respects, is also different in many ways from the Americans, or anyone else. However, in the spirit of your post, I'll say that it would not be a fate worse than death to be joined to the US. We're not THAT different.

Right. It was largely historical circumstances that resulted in the formation of separate states.

If Jordan was given the rest of the West bank, and extended citizenship and government services to all the people living there, the violence would cease, and everyone's life would become immeasurably better.

Perhaps (that's not what happened the last time Jordan took in a large number of Arabs from Palestine). But Egypt and Jordan aren't going to do that, so considering the idea is a waste of time.

[dre]

On the grand scale of things, yeah, pretty much. Easily replaced with a few billion dollars worth of desalination plants, a negligible cost compared to the toll of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Water was an issue in the 60s and 70s, but the technology exists today to make it a non-issue. The conflict is fueled not by a need for water but by an Arab leadership that hates Israel and purposefully does everything it can to maintain the eternal thorn in Israel's side of the stateless Palestinians.

None of this is even remotely true. The problem is actually bigger now than it was in the 60's and 70's as the population in the region increases and water table is reduced.

And I already explained to you why desalination isnt the panacea you claim it is, and showed you that no matter what your opinion is, Israel sure doesnt share your opinion. Seems to me like you just havent looked into this particular aspect of the conflict yet.

Heres a decent primer.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11101797

In the 1967 war Israel gained exclusive control of the waters of the West Bank and the Sea of Galilee, although not the Litani.

Those resources - the West Bank's mountain aquifer and the Sea of Galilee - give Israel about 60% of its fresh water, a billion cubic metres per year

Heated arguments rage about the rights to the mountain aquifer. Israel, and Israeli settlements, take about 80% of the aquifer's flow, leaving the Palestinians with 20%.

Not surprisingly, during the era of Arab-Israeli peacemaking in the 1990s, water rights became one of the trickiest areas of discussion.

They were set aside to be dealt with in the "final status" Israel-Palestinian talks, which were never concluded.

Israeli settlement activity continued in some of most sensitive water areas in the West Bank, despite Israel's undertaking not to act in ways that prejudice final status talks.

Stalled negotiations on Syria's dispute with Israel over the Golan Heights - occupied by Israel in 1967 and annexed in 1980 - also foundered on water-related issues.

Syria wants an Israeli withdrawal to 5 June 1967 borders, allowing Syria access to the Jordan and Yarmouk rivers. Israel wants to use boundaries dating back to 1923 and the British Mandate, which give the areas to Israel.

[Bonam]

Your own cite largely ignores desalination, except for pointing out that it's an important investment in the medium-long term. It does not present the numbers. Look, if you don't believe me, just look up Israel's annual usage of water. Then look up how much a desalination plant that produces x amount of water per year costs. That tells you what it would cost Israel to get 100% of its water from desalination (yes, throw in relevant electricity costs too). Then compare that to the cost of the Arab-Israeli conflict. There is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from the numbers.

As for the Golan Heights... lol You remember we're talking about Syria, right? The Golan is as much a part of Israel as Tel Aviv and isn't going anywhere.

[dre]

Your own cite largely ignores desalination, except for pointing out that it's an important investment in the medium-long term. It does not present the numbers. Look, if you don't believe me, just look up Israel's annual usage of water. Then look up how much a desalination plant that produces x amount of water per year costs. That tells you what it would cost Israel to get 100% of its water from desalination (yes, throw in relevant electricity costs too). Then compare that to the cost of the Arab-Israeli conflict. There is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from the numbers.

As for the Golan Heights... lol You remember we're talking about Syria, right? The Golan is as much a part of Israel as Tel Aviv and isn't going anywhere.

Like I said, Israel does not share your opinion. It IS investing in desalination but it will be decades before it can replace current consumption (which will actually grow), if ever. In the meantime water from the mountain aquifier is a vital resource... vital enough to go to war for as was demonstrated by Israels threats to bomb Lebanon in 2003 for pumping water out of the Hisbani, and the imposition of strict quotas that prevent residents in the west bank from building any kind of meaningful agrarian economy.

Youre right that desalination is useful, and Israel IS building plants, but dead wrong to suggest that all that gear designed to harvest 80% of the water from the mountain aquifier is not critical national infrastructure, and dead wrong in suggesting "water hasnt been an issue since the 60's and 70's". Its critical issue and a major stumbling block to peace in the region.

[GostHacked]

What plundering of land? Gaza and the West Bank don't have any shit that anybody would want.

Well, not anymore.

[GostHacked]

You do know that Jordan was split off from what was then called Palestine, right? Palestine was never a nation of people. It was just a geographical district, like a province, and a part of a variety of different empires.

All under UK rule. Which kind of helped because it seems the Zionist movement of the late 1800s started in the UK. Must have gotten some mad influence on politicians to carve up the Mandate and create Israel. All while systematically displacing the local populations through land deals ect. Much of this took place and was rolling before the holocaust happened.

It's not like we have not seen that go wrong before. Canada is still feeling the effects of pushing the aboriginals onto reserves. This is starting to back fire now.

[Rue]

Ghost Hacked Zionism did not start in the United Kingdom but again why let facts get into the way of your expertise on Zionism. This is the beauty of this forum. You can just fabricate it up as you go along. Its only Jews, no one will notice when you misrepresent their history right?

It was in fact the emancipation of Jews in 1791 that first led to the origins of Zionism. Napoleon was in fact sympathetic to Jews having their own state as well.

Zionism in fact started in central Europe (the Pale) and Eastern Europe not Britain.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Rue

[Moonlight Graham]

Also the OP video is riddled with factual errors. For example, he claims "There has never been a state in the geographic area that is known as Palestine that was not Jewish." which is immediately contradicted by the chronology showing a 2000 year gap between the Second Kingdom and the modern state of Israel. Where was the Jewish state for those two millenia?

This is a video is made by a US conservative Jewish man giving a typical US conservative Jewish man's narrative on the conflict. He brings up some a few good points, but the narrative that this conflict is "simple to understand" and is all the fault of Arab's while Israelis/Jews are just defending themselves and want peace just doesn't hold itself up to the facts.

[-1=e^ipi]

Syria and Russia are not thorny issues, especially in the west. Nobody in their right mind denies there is an aggressor and a victim.

Please, tell me who is the aggressor and who is the victim for these non-thorny issues.

[GostHacked]

Ghost Hacked Zionism did not start in the United Kingdom but again why let facts get into the way of your expertise on Zionism. This is the beauty of this forum. You can just fabricate it up as you go along. Its only Jews, no one will notice when you misrepresent their history right?

It was in fact the emancipation of Jews in 1791 that first led to the origins of Zionism. Napoleon was in fact sympathetic to Jews having their own state as well.

Zionism in fact started in central Europe (the Pale) and Eastern Europe not Britain.

I think even the Jews are misrepresenting their history. I'll grant you it started in central Europe, but major support came via the UK like the failed non-implemented Balfour Declaration.

History can and has been manipulated for political gain.

[Keepitsimple]

I think even the Jews are misrepresenting their history. I'll grant you it started in central Europe, but major support came via the UK like the failed non-implemented Balfour Declaration.

History can and has been manipulated for political gain.

Nonetheless, we are where we are. Hamas wants all Jews dead. ISIS wants all non-Muslims to either convert to Islam, pay ongoing protection money, or die. The Taliban are, well...the Taliban. This is the face of Islam that is trying to blanket the Middle East......and yet there are still apologists - people who turn a blind eye to what is happening.

[eyeball]

Yes that would be apologists for the unmitigated superpower imperialism that fuels the growth of ISIS, Al Quada, the Taliban et al.

[dre]

Nonetheless, we are where we are. Hamas wants all Jews dead. ISIS wants all non-Muslims to either convert to Islam, pay ongoing protection money, or die. The Taliban are, well...the Taliban. This is the face of Islam that is trying to blanket the Middle East......and yet there are still apologists - people who turn a blind eye to what is happening.

Well.... the thing is if you make the assumption that not "turning a blind eye" means to actually do something, the problem becomes we dont ever seem to do anything useful, in fact if anything we seem to make things a lot worse. Like how we removed the batthists from power in Iraq, and then replaced them with an Shia government that is essentially an Iranian proxy. Its an admirable thing to want to help people, but if you are incredibly stupid and crappy at it, sometimes it really is best to not help.

The west has already "helped" hundreds of thousands of people to death over there, and spent trillions doing it. And if anything the region is LESS stable than it was 15 years ago.

[jbg]

I think even the Jews are misrepresenting their history. I'll grant you it started in central Europe, but major support came via the UK like the failed non-implemented Balfour Declaration.

History can and has been manipulated for political gain.

Did we misrepresent the following:

1. The Spanish Inquisition?
2. The pogroms in Eastern Europe throughout the period 1600-WWII?
3. The expulsions from England?
4. L'Affaire Dryefusse? (sp)
5. The Kisinev Pogrom?
6. The Holocaust?
7. The Arab invasion the day Israel gained independence?

Which of these is false?

[Rue]

Ghost Hacked when you talk of Jewish history its clear you know nothing. You come on this board, make misrepresentations as to the origins of Zionism then compound your ignorance and feigned expertise on Jewish history by making nonsensical comments its misrepresented when you were the one misrepresenting it, continue to misrepresent it, and then throw out a false sweeping allegation that suggest we Jews lie about our history.

Enough with your bigoted comments and ignorant comments as to our history.

No Zionism was not encouraged by or supported by Britain. What a ridiculous thing to say. Past ridiculous. Go find out. Would you just once instead of coming on this forum and spewing off about a history, go find out.

Britain was always against Zionism. It never supported it. Zionism was seen by Britain as a direct obstacle to their empire and ability to form an alliance with Arab Beduin leaders who they needed to find the Ottoman Empire.

Then after WW1, Britain went out of its way to flood Palestine with Muslims to prevent a Jewish state and in fact the descendants of these Muslims who now identify as Palestinian are not descendants of Palestinians but Muslims just as external to the area as Jews were from Europe.

More Muslims displaced Palestinians than Jews. Transjordan was created as Jew free Palestinian state in direct contradiction of Britain's mandate to create a Jewish state seizing 90% of Palestine to prevent a Jewish state.

In fact the Balfour declaration was an attempt by Jewish Zionists to compromise. They said, you have 90% of the land that was supposed to be Palestine, we will even agree to a second Palestine state if you give us less than 3% of all Palestine. Th Arab League said, not an inch would go to Jews and to this day say so quoting the Koran and their concept of dhimmitude and Jews as kaafirs to deny any Jew ownership of land let alone a state.

How you would even begin to suggest Britain supported Zionism is past absurdity.

Britain sent Jews back to their death in Nazi Germany rather than let them escape to Palestine.

while it's clear to me you are not interested in Jewish history I will place these two sites on the board just to show how full of it your misrepresentations are:

www.covenant.idc.ac.il/en/vol1/issue2/miller_point.html

www.ajc.org/atf/cf/%7B42D75369-D582-4380-8395-D2592B85EAF%7D/Anti-Zionism.pdf

Edited August 9, 2014 by Rue

[GostHacked]

My comments might be ignorant, but they are not bigoted. No matter how much you try to paint me as an anti-semite. Yeesh.

[Rue]

Thy are anti semitic and bigoted in my opinion. You words. Your words are hateful. I will say it right now. I attack your words. I do not know you as a person. I take you exactly as you say, someone who is ignorant but not deliberately hateful. I do not think you are deliberately hateful and I think it takes a very good person to admit they are ignorant. That is a sign of moral strength. I thank you at a basic humanitarian level for saying that. It says a lot as to your character. I will give your words and opinions hell not you the person. Please believe that.

I debate with passion as to the opinions.You as a person I just heard loud and clear. I heard the yeesh. I did hear it and will ease up on the throttle. I just blasted you on another thread. Its the words. I am trying to go back and delete personal references. I mean to attack the words not you as a person.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I mean to zap your words, not you as a person.

[Argus]

Perhaps (that's not what happened the last time Jordan took in a large number of Arabs from Palestine). But Egypt and Jordan aren't going to do that, so considering the idea is a waste of time.

I can't help wondering if billions of dollars in inducements might change their minds a little bit.