Why Islam is dangerous

dialamah · September 7, 2016

So in your opinion, Sura 9 are not important words of Allah? Interesting concept...pick and choose which of God's commands to follow and STILL get into heaven. Neat trick...

Or cherry pick which of his commands to highlight and incite hatred and war.

DogOnPorch · September 7, 2016

Or cherry pick which of his commands to highlight and incite hatred and war.

Again...you're free to provide the peaceful verses that I'm obviously missing being you're an expert...lol.

Altai · September 7, 2016

You're free to deny Sura 9's existence.

No I dont. I explain it with the logical way. It makes no sense if we get it as you say.

For example from the same Surah;

Verse 3 orders not to fight against Mushriks (not non-Muslim) as long as they didnt violate the peace agreement.

Verse 5 orders even if someone fights you first but after all he/she gives up and rejects to fight, then you have to protect him/her and you have to escort him/her until he/she reaches a safe place.

Verse 6 orders to be honest/fair against Mushriks as long as they behave the same way against Muslims.

Verse 11 orders to fight and target especially the leaders of those who attack Muslims.

etc etc etc... This is why I want you to read the surah from beginning. Your claims makes no sense.

Note: There is no word in the verse which meets English "infidel". There is no word in entire Quran such a word. Verse says Mushriks and they also believe in God but its a bit different, research please.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Altai

Benz · September 7, 2016

Yes, finally someones understand me. Its translated as "non-muslim" because of hiding the facts about Quran is done by non-Muslims. But this does not mean all the non-Muslims are kafir.

Well, you are playing with words. A non-muslim that is not aware of what Islam is, is not a Kafir because he does not know it. However, if a non-muslim has read a bit of Quran or have heard about it and does not agree with it, therefore it is a Kafir. Just the fact that the Quran states that a behavior toward someone must be different depending if you are addressing to a Kafir or not, it says alot about the inequality of men under the muslim religion. Whether the translation is accurate or not.

The Jews and the Muslims are similar on that point of view. They grant the believers to have different rules in regards to people whether they are one of them or not. Unlike the Christians where the Bible says they are all the sons of gods and the believers must have the same attitude toward people even if they are not Christians. However, for Christians, God keeps himself the right to have different treatments to people based on whether they obeyed him or not. Which at the end of the day, almost means the same.

Those three systems are very old and are not adapted to our modern values. It is very clear that they were written by people in a period of time where the social advances were not as great as today. However the religions pretend that they Bible/Torah/Quran/etc were written based of the words of their god/allah/etc and therefore, they believe that it can't be disputed. That's their weakness point.

Do you know why the men back then need to claim this is coming from their "god"? Because they knew that it was the only way to make people respect the book. The individuals would have never been accept to follow the saying of one of their own, of of their equal. It had to be coming from a higher entity. From someone superior. God/Allah/etc is an excellent concept to fulfill that requirement.

It's amazing to see how people still like to comply in their certainties. It has something very comforting. Wow, a great super power and very righteous divine entity is taking care of me. Now I feel good. Be sure I'll do whatever he/she/it says in return. It's the very least. Funny how this is very similar to the mafia principle that if you contribute to the clan, you will be protected. That's very low level human mindset. That Divine entity can create the whole universe and all those physic laws but, somehow, it feels the need to be worshiped by inferior creatures it has recently created after several billions of years of existence.

The incapacity for believers to question that is the proof that if there was a divine superior creator, it would certainly not be one of those. Religions were very useful for human looking for moral codes for several thousand years. Since the people are now their own sovereign, have a decent (although not perfect) legal system and laws to enforce those values, the religions are not as much necessary as they once were and it also explains why they are trailing at social advancements.

I appreciate that you bring us corrections regarding the translation of the Quran which is definitely not evil as some Islamophobics are trying to say. But I suggest you be careful to not lose your freewill and capacity to use a critical sense. A religion is not only a set of rules, it is also tied to culture. It's up to you to make it change for the best or bow down on your knew and accept mindset of people at a period of time where there was no aqueduct and they thought earth was flat.

dre · September 7, 2016

So in your opinion, Sura 9 are not important words of Allah? Interesting concept...pick and choose which of God's commands to follow and STILL get into heaven. Neat trick...

Yup, just like the rest of religious people on earth. Almost no muslims are acting on any of this crap. Cherry picking these bits and pieces from an ancient text is just you trying to justify your hatred of them. Nothing more.

Goddess · September 7, 2016

I dont understand ?

You previously said that "farmers" is the correct translation of "kafirs" but only in some verses. So when the directive is given to "annihilate kafirs"......who are you supposed to annihilate? That is my question. If it's not farmers, then who is it?

If a Muslim chooses to interpret that as "annihilate farmers" is he free to interpret it that way? Is he shown the proper people to annihilate? If he chooses to interpret it as "annihilate non-Muslims" is he free to interpret it that way?

What direction is given in the mosques as to which people to annihilate?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Goddess

drummindiver · September 7, 2016

My guess would be 60 years or so of really ill-thought out super-power interference and exploitation in the region Islam predominates - interference and exploitation that was carried out in a really malevolent offensive way. It retarded the development of a more moderate progressive society. Probably set it back at least a couple of generations, probably more.

Yes, must be the States.

Not the fact that 1964 marked Muslim Brothrhood coming into being, and please don't us the vacuous statement that they filled a vacuum.

drummindiver · September 7, 2016

Nope you got it wrong.

2:193 means to fight against the ones who attacks you because of your life style and to fight them until the system belongs to Islam, because you are Muslims and Islamic system forbids the oppression to others. If they give up to fight against you anymore, then you would only be enemies against the zalimun.

Does not mean you "have to be enemies" with Zalimun. You only would be enemies against Zalimun because they may attack you anytime just because of your life style.

If you translate it as according to your interests (which you call as cherry picking) it will contradict with the Quran complately.

2:189: fight against the ones who fights against you but do not act extreme, Allah does not like extremists

2:190: kill them whereever you find them and kick them out of your homeland as the same way they did to you. Because fitnah is much worse than killing a human. Kill them if they fight you, this is the punishment of kaffirs.m

2:191: if they give up, then remember that Allah is very forgiving.

2:192: Fight them until there is no fithah anymore and system belongs to Islam, because Islam forbids fitnah. If they give up to fight against you, enemity only would be against Zalimun anymore.

This is the true interpretation. If you translate as you said, it will contradict with all other verses.

I want to reply with much more examples but I dont have this much of time for a forum discussion. Your claims always contradicts with one another.

Abrogation gets in the way of your claims.

drummindiver · September 7, 2016

Instead of deliberately misconstruing her statements, why not try answering her question .... If Allah ordered the execution of all non-Muslims, how could he also order the collection of penalty from them? Dead non-Muslims can't pay, after all.

Surely with your claimed intimate knowledge and understanding of the Qu'ran and Islam, this will be an easy contradiction to 'splain away.

First Nations took scalps. White men took silver and go,d and land. Your argument is nonexistent.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Yup, just like the rest of religious people on earth. Almost no muslims are acting on any of this crap. Cherry picking these bits and pieces from an ancient text is just you trying to justify your hatred of them. Nothing more.

Then they are not Muslim. No more than an apparent Christian who ignores Thou Shalt Not Steal.

Yes, must be the States.

Not the fact that 1964 marked Muslim Brothrhood coming into being, and please don't us the vacuous statement that they filled a vacuum.

The Muslim Brotherhood was formed in the 1920s by Hassan al-Banna. Qutb and the Mufti were also in like flint.

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As for being called an Islamophobe...offhandedly...I have yet to be presented the peaceful version of Islam. Where can I look to see Islam practiced as a peaceful benign dogma that gets along with the neighbours? It exists...right?

Nor has anybody been able to explain what part of Islam ISIS has wrong. What do they have wrong about their religion?

TimG · September 8, 2016

I have yet to be presented the peaceful version of Islam. Where can I look to see Islam practiced as a peaceful benign dogma that gets along with the neighbours? It exists...right?

Christians have no problems finding words in the New Testament that can be easily interpreted to repudiate the various bizarre mandates in the Old Testament.

I think what we all would like to see is a Islamic equivalent of this page:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/love-bible-verses/

eyeball · September 8, 2016

Yes, must be the States.

Not the fact that 1964 marked Muslim Brothrhood coming into being, and please don't us the vacuous statement that they filled a vacuum.

England too. Do you even know what we're talking about?

And BTW the MB was founded in 1928.

drummindiver · September 8, 2016

Then they are not Muslim. No more than an apparent Christian who ignores Thou Shalt Not Steal.

The Muslim Brotherhood was formed in the 1920s by Hassan al-Banna. Qutb and the Mufti were also in like flint.

----------------------------------

As for being called an Islamophobe...offhandedly...I have yet to be presented the peaceful version of Islam. Where can I look to see Islam practiced as a peaceful benign dogma that gets along with the neighbours? It exists...right?

Nor has anybody been able to explain what part of Islam ISIS has wrong. What do they have wrong about their religion?

Yes, but it was after Milestones was printed I. 1964 that they were as widespread. Sorry, my syntax was confusing.

drummindiver · September 8, 2016

England too. Do you even know what we're talking about?
Yes. You blame the west for every problem associated with ME. Close enough.?

drummindiver · September 8, 2016

My guess would be 60 years or so of really ill-thought out super-power interference and exploitation in the region Islam predominates - interference and exploitation that was carried out in a really malevolent offensive way. It retarded the development of a more moderate progressive society. Probably set it back at least a couple of generations, probably more.

Yes, thousands of years of no progress towards a kinder society.

Blames it on the last 60 years.

Blames it on other societies.

Peter F · September 8, 2016

...

Nor has anybody been able to explain what part of Islam ISIS has wrong. What do they have wrong about their religion?

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

eyeball · September 8, 2016

You blame the west for every problem associated with ME. Close enough.?

Nope, you're still wide of the mark as usual. No one has said every problem.

You still don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you?

Goddess · September 8, 2016

The letter to bagdahdi.....

^^^ Where is the proof from the Koran? ^^^

Anyone can make those statements, "This is forbidden" or "That is forbidden". Where are the textual proofs? I can't imagine ISIS or any Muslim would just read that list and agree to it without proofs.

The reason I was asking about what is taught in the mosques is because I wanted to know why there is no unity in Muslim beliefs. Are they not all taught the same thing?

Edited September 8, 2016 by Goddess

dialamah · September 8, 2016

The letter to bagdahdi.....

^^^ Where is the proof from the Koran? ^^^

Anyone can make those statements, "This is forbidden" or "That is forbidden". Where are the textual proofs? I can't imagine ISIS or any Muslim would just read that list and agree to it without proofs.

The reason I was asking about what is taught in the mosques is because I wanted to know why there is no unity in Muslim beliefs. Are they not all taught the same thing?

You may as well ask where is the unity amog Christian Churches, or any other religion. They all teach from the same word, but seem to end up with different beliefs.

I didn't have time to look at the letter in detail but I saw references to both the Qu'ran and their Hadiths. Are you sure you are reading with an open mind?

Goddess · September 8, 2016

When I click "Read the Letter" it just has a list of statements with no sources.

I am well aware of the differences in Christian beliefs but we are talking about Muslim beliefs so I didn't address unity in Christian teachings.

Questioning this indicates to you that my mind is closed?

Peter F · September 8, 2016

The letter to bagdahdi.....

^^^ Where is the proof from the Koran? ^^^

Anyone can make those statements, "This is forbidden" or "That is forbidden". Where are the textual proofs? I can't imagine ISIS or any Muslim would just read that list and agree to it without proofs.

The reason I was asking about what is taught in the mosques is because I wanted to know why there is no unity in Muslim beliefs. Are they not all taught the same thing?

I suspect that you only read the summary on the very first page of the letter.

The following pages (you can 'turn' the page by clicking on the right-pointing arrow icon on the upper left of the screen) are the writers proofs with quotes from the Quran.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

As long as ISIS doesn't know anything about Abrogation, we'll be golden.

Goddess · September 8, 2016

Coolio. Thanks! That is what I wanted to see.

Why is this not taught in mainstream Islam? If someone deviates from these teachings, what are the consequences? (The cult I was in was VERY fanatical about maintaining unity. You could not disagree with any teaching, no matter how minor, or you were kicked out and shunned for life).

I'm sorry if my questions sound snarky, they are asked in genuineness. I would really like to know.

dialamah · September 8, 2016

When I click "Read the Letter" it just has a list of statements with no sources.

I am well aware of the differences in Christian beliefs but we are talking about Muslim beliefs so I didn't address unity in Christian teachings.

Questioning this indicates to you that my mind is closed?

Well, I don't know why anyone would expect complete unity in a religion with billions of adherents. Its hard to get unity with a group of more than one person. Still, within the Islam faith, more than 99% do not subscribe to the violence and killing of non-believers that ISIS practices. Thats pretty unified on that front but they do differ dramatically on other issues.

Since your original post failed to mention you hadn't even seen the letter, yeah it struck me as odd that you couldn't see the references to the Qu'ran. That, combined with an apparent expectation that Muslims do what no other group has ever done in the history of the world in terms "unity" the possibility that you were simply unable to recognize a bias against Muslims did cross my mind, so I asked. I apologize if you feel offended.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Well, they'll have to try harder as I'm pretty sure al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic Jurisprudence. Sort of like playing the 'expert card' to another expert.