Why Islam is dangerous

[dialamah]

BINGO!

Now think about that for a little while.....

Altai's family is not religious; she converted on her own, as she's explained elsewhere. Edited September 8, 2016 by dialamah

[Peter F]

Abrogation is a fact of Islam

Like you would know.

[dialamah]

Yes indeed. Abrogation is a fact of Islam we'll all have to deal with because the fellows with the guns and the bombs are the ones 'misinterpreting Islam' (lol).

I agree we have to deal with extremists and extremism. Their misinterpretation is irrelevant to that fact, but promoting it as you do is not helpful.

[DogOnPorch]

Like you would know.

I understand personal attacks are the last resort of some.

If I'm so wrong about Islam...there should be no issues anywhere. But...alas...instead there are issues everywhere.

Perhaps we can look forward to a Reformation in Islam...an Enlightenment...a Renaissance as it were. But, let's get real about this religion's track record of non-stop violence. Even Columbus voyaging to America was due to Islamic Armies blocking the Silk Route. This has been going on for CENTURIES.

I agree we have to deal with extremists and extremism. Their misinterpretation is irrelevant to that fact, but promoting it as you do is not helpful.

Islam does have much to hide that you and others get VERY upset about when criticized.

Edited September 8, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

Morality is something eternal.

I agree. Do you think belief in God is needed for morality?

[Peter F]

DoP

But, let's get real about this religion's track record of non-stop violence. Even Columbus voyaging to America was due to Islamic Armies blocking the Silk Route. This has been going on for CENTURIES.

Yes it has, along with centuries worth of conflict in Europe and Asia - just as brutal and just as non-stop. So lets stop bullshitting about how Islam is somehow more violent than Christians or Buddhists or animists.

Sure Islamic powers controlled access to the Silk route much to the chagrin of Venice and Genoa and Spain and Portugal and England and France and the Dutch and whoever else wanted access to Silk. Those states sank each others ships;burned trading posts; sacked various ports; fought wars with each other etc etc in attempts to get exclusive access to that silk. Lets stop the bullshit that Islamic nations were cause of all that.

[Altai]

I agree. Do you think belief in God is needed for morality?

Yes and No, so in many cases you dont need to be a religious person to be a moral person because anyone can think with logic. But in some cases, you cant explain the things only with logic. There are some things you cant explain with science. I think this is the point where religion is involved to morality.

[DogOnPorch]

DoP

Yes it has, along with centuries worth of conflict in Europe and Asia - just as brutal and just as non-stop. So lets stop bullshitting about how Islam is somehow more violent than Christians or Buddhists or animists.

Sure Islamic powers controlled access to the Silk route much to the chagrin of Venice and Genoa and Spain and Portugal and England and France and the Dutch and whoever else wanted access to Silk. Those states sank each others ships;burned trading posts; sacked various ports; fought wars with each other etc etc in attempts to get exclusive access to that silk. Lets stop the bullshit that Islamic nations were cause of all that.

Islam is different in that it proselytizes by sword and suffers no competition. Christianity and the other major religions are capable of co-existence by the very nature of their dogma. Not so with Islam that has plans for the Infidel.

[Peter F]

Christianity and the other major religions are capable of co-existence by the very nature of their dogma.

Recent dogma, I think. Certainly not historical dogma. And the same is true of Islam.

[DogOnPorch]

Recent dogma, I think. Certainly not historical dogma. And the same is true of Islam.

You're free to provide the passage where Jesus orders conversion of disbelievers. Take your time.

Re: Islam's military history. Not many reject Islam's role in military history. Do you?

[Benz]

ops... I hit enter too fast...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Benz

[Guest]

That's your problem. You think you know it all already and won't listen to people far more educated than you on the subject.

Keep in mind that some of member Altai's explanations clash with those of other Muslims including those at IslamQA.info.

We have no problem grilling Betsy on some of her dubious apologetic stances on Biblical scriptures, despite the fact that she has most likely spent more time pouring over them than most. Ultimately I am happy when the religious play the various games that allow them to reconcile barbaric ancient scriptures with modern secular humanist values but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call BS from time to time.

[Peter F]

Well, the issue me and Dogonportch have is that he thinks ISIS is the true and only serious rendition of Islam and when shown an interpretation from learned scholars of Islam - Ignores it. Does he ponder that perhaps those learned scholars may be as qualified as himself or Sam Harris to argue interpretation of Islam?

Nope.

But sure calling bullshit from time to time is a good thing, particularly when confronting bullshit.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, the issue me and Dogonportch have is that he thinks ISIS is the true and only serious rendition of Islam and when shown an interpretation from learned scholars of Islam - Ignores it. Does he ponder that perhaps those learned scholars may be as qualified as himself or Sam Harris to argue interpretation of Islam?

Nope.

But sure calling bullshit from time to time is a good thing, particularly when confronting bullshit.

Again: I don't believe in any Bronze Age myths. My source is the Quran as opposed to 'experts' and apologists trying to pretend Abrogation in the Quran does not exist. My understanding is that it does exist and the thousands of acts of terrorism in Islam's name confirm that.

Islam's military history is available for anyone looking. Denying it exists is just that: denial. Islam's purpose is to combat all other religions until it is all for Allah. Pretty simple. Dying while fighting in Allah's name the highest possible achievement re: Paradise. What's not to like?

[Goddess]

Altai's family is not religious; she converted on her own, as she's explained elsewhere.

** sigh **

You certainly love moving the goalposts......

Since Altai didn't comment on her personal conversion but was making a general statement, I also didn't commnet on her personal situation.

Also, as I'm new here, I haven't read every thread on here. So if she commented somewhere about her personal situation, I am unaware. Nor does the fact that she converted have anything at all to do with her statement above.

[Guest]

Again: I don't believe in any Bronze Age myths. My source is the Quran as opposed to 'experts' and apologists trying to pretend Abrogation in the Quran does not exist. My understanding is that it does exist and the thousands of acts of terrorism in Islam's name confirm that.

Islam's military history is available for anyone looking. Denying it exists is just that: denial. Islam's purpose is to combat all other religions until it is all for Allah. Pretty simple. Dying while fighting in Allah's name the highest possible achievement re: Paradise. What's not to like?

Still would you deny that most Christians and Muslims don't live by the scriptures? Even though many become apologetic, contortionists in an attempt to keep the charade alive.

[dialamah]

** sigh **

You certainly love moving the goalposts......

Since Altai didn't comment on her personal conversion but was making a general statement, I also didn't commnet on her personal situation.

Also, as I'm new here, I haven't read every thread on here. So if she commented somewhere about her personal situation, I am unaware. Nor does the fact that she converted have anything at all to do with her statement above.

Sorry my mistake.

[Peter F]

Again: I don't believe in any Bronze Age myths. My source is the Quran as opposed to 'experts' and apologists trying to pretend Abrogation in the Quran does not exist. My understanding is that it does exist and the thousands of acts of terrorism in Islam's name confirm that.

Islam's military history is available for anyone looking. Denying it exists is just that: denial. Islam's purpose is to combat all other religions until it is all for Allah. Pretty simple. Dying while fighting in Allah's name the highest possible achievement re: Paradise. What's not to like?

Yes, I understand and do not doubt that you don't believe in Bronze Age myths. Yet despite the fact (undisputed by me) that you do not believe in bronze age myths and therefore give no credence to the authors of the Letter to al-Baghdadi, You continue to pronounce that ISIS is the true form of Islam, as If al-Baghdadi does have credence where the others do not. The muslims from Iraq or Syria or Iran or Jordan or Saudi-arabia or Kurds or Turks for that matter are battling ISIS as we speak. Are they not also followers of the true Islamic faith of ISIS? Do they agree that the Caliphate is legitimate, a true reflection of Islam? Why are those fervent muslims battling ISIS?

They all believe the same thing don't they? If it was true that ISIS is the soul of Islam then why has most fervently muslim nations in the region taken up arms agains them?

Do you not see the contradiction in your position? That there are indeed other interpretations of the Quran? That your lack of belief in Bronze age myths is irrelevant to the question you asked 'What other interpretation is there?'

As an atheist you have given credence to the ISIS version of Islam as the true version. As an atheist you have dismissed other versions - real versions that result in actual wars as is happening now. Why uphold al-Baghdadi's version and dismiss the others ?

I dont dismiss Islams military history and your claim that I do is an unadulterated pile of ....well, Straw.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Peter F

[DogOnPorch]

Still would you deny that most Christians and Muslims don't live by the scriptures? Even though many become apologetic, contortionists in an attempt to keep the charade alive.

Islam and Christianity have zero to do with genetics. If you don't follow the rules, you're not really a Muslim or Christian...etc.

I believe the Bronze Age deities were quite specific as what and what not to do...in spite of apologists pretending otherwise.

Islam's message is: There are no God(s) but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no interfaith in Islam unless you count paying the Jizya.

Edited September 8, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Benz]

Actually, before Islam, the word "kafir" was never used with its meaning in Quran. Therefore we need to look at usage of it in Quran to understand that what does it really mean. Its about hiding something but how its used in Quran ? You can find the verses which includes the word "kafir", there are search sites for it. You will realize that its not used to describe "non-Muslims" but used to describe the persons agressively try to hide and distort Islamic concepts or verses.

Just the opposite Quran orders justice in many verses, even I think that its only about justice, does not matter whether or not you are a Muslim. It says even if its your father, you will never behave unjust to someone, so you wont even defend your father if your father is the wrong side. Everyone has equal rights in Islam as long as you are not an agressive and unjust person.

It's important to have the same understanding of the words, otherwise we will be wasting our time. A word or expression can see its meaning changed over time by the people according to new reality they live with. I know an expression in french that is very popular but, it has a total opposite use today compared to its original meaning because the context is so different now. What I am interested in, is what the writers of the Quran meant when they wrote it. The Muslim experts on that matter are saying that a Kafir is someone who denies something despite that person knows it exists. It is similar to your version but, the little difference is important. When we read those verses, it wouldn't make sens that they do such a fuzz about someone just hiding something. Do not take it bad but, the version explain by the Muslims experts seems more accurate.

Your explanations shows a version much closer to the christian verses, but the Christians do not set those a rules in regards of someone hiding something.

One thing for sure, the interpretation that most of westerners do, is wrong. If I deny the existence of Allah, but I never been informed of the content of the Quran, I am not a Fakir. If I read the Quran or heard of its content and still deny the existence of Allah, then I am a Kafir. From my point of view, a Kafir is just a person having an opinion and taking position but, from the point of view of Muslims swallowing 100% of the Quran, a Kafir is a person with bad intentions. It's important to understand that not all of the Muslims are so deep with the religions, just as many Christians and Jews and many others.

Morality is something eternal and untimely, for example theft was a bad action 10.000 years ago and today its still a bad action. So its a false premise to say religion is not belong to today. Religion does not order you to use steam trains instead of electric trains. Just the opposite it orders you to be open for innovations.

Its think that it was written by the people of the time and have nothing with something holy. Its just the opposite for us.

Morality is a code to rule behavior depending on situations. Some moral codes are the same since the night of time and others have changed completely. There are things that were considered as a crime against the lord back then and are now considered totally accepted today... except be the too religious people. Homosexuality for instance. The religions are totally retarded on that concern. We are now capable to prove that the homosexuals are not crazy. There is really something explainable scientifically and it can be verified. Even the people with the wrong gender. Female mind in male body or vice versa. We recently discovered that a chemical disorder or malfunction makes those people think they belong to the other sex.

As I told you, religions still meet some needs today and they have cultural practices that are appreciated by the people, even the non believers. For example, my son has been baptized although I do not believe in God and I object to several of Catholic's positions. I celebrate Christmas although I do not celebrate the birth of the so called Christ. I could stop doing all those and not baptized my next child and it would not change a thing in my life. I just did it because I like the cultural aspect of it. I could have a girlfriend from wherever in the world from whatever religion and I would accept her just the way she is and I would expect that she accepts me the way I am. Even if I can be very hard on the religions for what they did or still do wrong, I am also capable to see the good side of them and my opinion is still 100% objective. I must admit it has not been always like that. Long time ago, I wanted the destruction of all religions because I was obsessed by all the bad things they do. However I grew up and realize that there are something that just need time to change.

Yes its perfect to think that a great power protects you, everyone likes the idea is not it ?

No. There are so many wars started in the name of a god, I fear the believers/followers more than anything else. They are the most dangerous ones. They are capable of the worst because for them, their god can justify anything. ANYTHING! Look to my southern neighbors. They started wars, conflicts and supported so many dictatorships in the world and they still have the nerve to call god to bless them. Although it is written in their own bible that all the humans are equal, they ask god to bless them instead of the world. On a individual basis, one can also go nuts based on that same principle. "I know god will protect me" and then they pull the trigger. Or this Jehova couple who refused to give treatment for their sick kid because they say God forbids it. Our government used the justice court to take away the kid from them and give him the treatment that saved his life. Some people believe so much that God will protect them, that they are ready the most insane thing in complete trust and faith.

Why its something cute for humanbeing ? Because of we have innate faith in God. The main thing is to realize the existence of God by logic. I dont know the other religions but in Islam you are ordered to think about the existence of God in many verses, I love this verse soo much "These are the Muslims, they think about the existence of God while walking or while sitting or while lying on their side." Islam does not order you to believe in a holy power somewhere behind the clouds without any proof or logical explanation, it want you to think about it. I dont think many persons who claims being Muslims claim being Muslim because of they realize the existence of God by logic but they claim being Muslim because of their families was performing such an action.

Islam, Christianism and Judaism are all the same. They have some differences but, they all have the same roots. It's a bit like comparing the languages french/italian/spannish. Of course they are different but, they all have the same basis, the same roots. Other religions are way more different than those 3. You say that your religion invites you think about the existence of Allah, like if it was ok to contest it without becoming a Fakir. You want to demonstrate you have your freewill and only logic guides you? ok, you can do that. There are some stuff in the Quran that do not makes sense or are very questionable. Expose them to us. Show us that you are objective and are capable to critic your own religion. I know you won't. I also know that even if we prove it to you, you will not accept. No one here or anywhere else in the world will convince you that there is a flaw in the logic. Only you can do such thing. Because in a system where faith leads your convictions, nothing external and rational can extract you from there. So instead of trying to convince you to leave that, I will say the opposite. Your religion, as many others as well, holds great cultural wealth and values that are important to keep for patrimonial purpose. Even if you realize that there is something wrong in your religion, there is no need to condemn it totally. However, the world is evolving and the religions are constructed by MEN, not by a god. It's up to the men and women to adapt those religions to the new reality. Conservatism and religious establishment (churches/mosques/synagogues) are the greatest obstacles to the evolution of moral advancements. Their gods are not talking to them as they pretend. Their books are not written by the hand of their gods. They are just trying to preach what they think it the will of their gods. If you can't be objective and be capable to criticize that, you are contributing to make it worst. Every human is capable to figure out what is wrong or good without reading it in the bible/quran/torah. Religions are suppose to help you with that by providing the thoughts of elders, just like the philosophers. But it's not what they always do. They can be wrong and the more conservative they are, the greater the chances are going to prove they are wrong. Don't be afraid of the void. Don't be afraid to say I do not know. To progress in life, you must be able to ask the right questions. The religions are doing the other way around. They are trying to make up answers that will rather satisfy your fear of the unknown than really find the exact answers.

f it was such easy to create a religion just because of you like to be protected, Superman and Batman would create their own religions with millions of followers.

Thanks for your advice, I am a Muslim because of I have critical thinking capacity.

You are Muslim and so far, it did not conflicted with your critical thinking capacity. I can critic and it did not lead me to any religion. Let's see if you have that capacity to take distance from the religion and prevail the logic. I am a Fakir according to your religion. Am I a Fakir to you?

[eyeball]

Please enlighten me Obi Wan.

The West is not responsible for everything. Acknowledge that and I'll continue.

[Altai]

It's important to have the same understanding of the words, otherwise we will be wasting our time. A word or expression can see its meaning changed over time by the people according to new reality they live with. I know an expression in french that is very popular but, it has a total opposite use today compared to its original meaning because the context is so different now. What I am interested in, is what the writers of the Quran meant when they wrote it. The Muslim experts on that matter are saying that a Kafir is someone who denies something despite that person knows it exists. It is similar to your version but, the little difference is important. When we read those verses, it wouldn't make sens that they do such a fuzz about someone just hiding something. Do not take it bad but, the version explain by the Muslims experts seems more accurate.

Your explanations shows a version much closer to the christian verses, but the Christians do not set those a rules in regards of someone hiding something.

One thing for sure, the interpretation that most of westerners do, is wrong. If I deny the existence of Allah, but I never been informed of the content of the Quran, I am not a Fakir. If I read the Quran or heard of its content and still deny the existence of Allah, then I am a Kafir. From my point of view, a Kafir is just a person having an opinion and taking position but, from the point of view of Muslims swallowing 100% of the Quran, a Kafir is a person with bad intentions. It's important to understand that not all of the Muslims are so deep with the religions, just as many Christians and Jews and many others.

Morality is a code to rule behavior depending on situations. Some moral codes are the same since the night of time and others have changed completely. There are things that were considered as a crime against the lord back then and are now considered totally accepted today... except be the too religious people. Homosexuality for instance. The religions are totally retarded on that concern. We are now capable to prove that the homosexuals are not crazy. There is really something explainable scientifically and it can be verified. Even the people with the wrong gender. Female mind in male body or vice versa. We recently discovered that a chemical disorder or malfunction makes those people think they belong to the other sex.

As I told you, religions still meet some needs today and they have cultural practices that are appreciated by the people, even the non believers. For example, my son has been baptized although I do not believe in God and I object to several of Catholic's positions. I celebrate Christmas although I do not celebrate the birth of the so called Christ. I could stop doing all those and not baptized my next child and it would not change a thing in my life. I just did it because I like the cultural aspect of it. I could have a girlfriend from wherever in the world from whatever religion and I would accept her just the way she is and I would expect that she accepts me the way I am. Even if I can be very hard on the religions for what they did or still do wrong, I am also capable to see the good side of them and my opinion is still 100% objective. I must admit it has not been always like that. Long time ago, I wanted the destruction of all religions because I was obsessed by all the bad things they do. However I grew up and realize that there are something that just need time to change.

No. There are so many wars started in the name of a god, I fear the believers/followers more than anything else. They are the most dangerous ones. They are capable of the worst because for them, their god can justify anything. ANYTHING! Look to my southern neighbors. They started wars, conflicts and supported so many dictatorships in the world and they still have the nerve to call god to bless them. Although it is written in their own bible that all the humans are equal, they ask god to bless them instead of the world. On a individual basis, one can also go nuts based on that same principle. "I know god will protect me" and then they pull the trigger. Or this Jehova couple who refused to give treatment for their sick kid because they say God forbids it. Our government used the justice court to take away the kid from them and give him the treatment that saved his life. Some people believe so much that God will protect them, that they are ready the most insane thing in complete trust and faith.

Islam, Christianism and Judaism are all the same. They have some differences but, they all have the same roots. It's a bit like comparing the languages french/italian/spannish. Of course they are different but, they all have the same basis, the same roots. Other religions are way more different than those 3. You say that your religion invites you think about the existence of Allah, like if it was ok to contest it without becoming a Fakir. You want to demonstrate you have your freewill and only logic guides you? ok, you can do that. There are some stuff in the Quran that do not makes sense or are very questionable. Expose them to us. Show us that you are objective and are capable to critic your own religion. I know you won't. I also know that even if we prove it to you, you will not accept. No one here or anywhere else in the world will convince you that there is a flaw in the logic. Only you can do such thing. Because in a system where faith leads your convictions, nothing external and rational can extract you from there. So instead of trying to convince you to leave that, I will say the opposite. Your religion, as many others as well, holds great cultural wealth and values that are important to keep for patrimonial purpose. Even if you realize that there is something wrong in your religion, there is no need to condemn it totally. However, the world is evolving and the religions are constructed by MEN, not by a god. It's up to the men and women to adapt those religions to the new reality. Conservatism and religious establishment (churches/mosques/synagogues) are the greatest obstacles to the evolution of moral advancements. Their gods are not talking to them as they pretend. Their books are not written by the hand of their gods. They are just trying to preach what they think it the will of their gods. If you can't be objective and be capable to criticize that, you are contributing to make it worst. Every human is capable to figure out what is wrong or good without reading it in the bible/quran/torah. Religions are suppose to help you with that by providing the thoughts of elders, just like the philosophers. But it's not what they always do. They can be wrong and the more conservative they are, the greater the chances are going to prove they are wrong. Don't be afraid of the void. Don't be afraid to say I do not know. To progress in life, you must be able to ask the right questions. The religions are doing the other way around. They are trying to make up answers that will rather satisfy your fear of the unknown than really find the exact answers.

You are Muslim and so far, it did not conflicted with your critical thinking capacity. I can critic and it did not lead me to any religion. Let's see if you have that capacity to take distance from the religion and prevail the logic. I am a Fakir according to your religion. Am I a Fakir to you?

LoL why do you write this much, I really cant read and reply it without allowing too much time. I will read it one day in the future

[cybercoma]

You're free to provide the passage where Jesus orders conversion of disbelievers.

Have you ever picked up a history book? Hell, people still go on "mission trips" to convert the non-believers.

Hey, starving children in African. Want us to build you a well for clean drinking water and help you start some crops and raise livestock? Just read this Bible and we can get to work.

[Argus]

It won't matter what you say to him, Altai, he is convinced that his version of Islam is the right one. As far as he is concerned, Islam is a violent, oppressive ideology and he only accepts proof which supports his point of view, and rejects anything else.

Well let's see, how does the Muslim world behave? Is it in line with his view or yours? It seems to me that every Muslim nation has brutal and barbaric social customs and laws. EVERY ONE. And those laws happen to be in line with the Koran. Soooo... it looks like he's right.

[Argus]

You choose the interpretation of Islam that supports violence, oppression and terrorism and keep insisting this is the only correct interpretation.

Which countries in the Muslim world support a different "interpretation?"