Multiculturalism in Canada - Does it Unite or Divide?

[Argus]

How about we just start with that. One advantage of living in a multicultural society like Canada is a wonderful selection of ethnic restaurants.

And if one has no interest in ethnic restaurants than there is no advantage for him, right?

[-1=e^ipi]

Now we're back to that arguemnt which says a Canadian is someone for whom a clerk has processed some documents, not someone who has any knowledge of or interest in Canada's history, culture, language or people. Not buying it. Just because some rich guy in Hong Kong pays a few pennies to buy himself a Canadian passport and keep it in his safe "just in case" I'm not going to consider him a Canadian.

Can we just define Canadian as Canadian citizen and if you want to refer to groups of Canadian Citizens that you do not strongly identify with, could you use a different term? Otherwise it gets confusing and we are using different definitions for different terms.

Edit: How about unintegrated-Canadians? Does that work?

1. How is this economic opportunity any greater in an ethnic area than somewhere else?

I meant that if you have a sudden surge of immigration from somewhere (say China) in a sort time period, then these immigrants will tend to go to a location in Canada with high employment prospects (say Calgary) during that time. So employment prospects can explain some of the localization phenomena of immigrants.

2. but not something native born Canadians would ever feel?

I never implied that...

Edited July 11, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[PoliticalAtheist]

How about we just start with that. One advantage of living in a multicultural society like Canada is a wonderful selection of ethnic restaurants.

Now, can you name a disadvantage that outweighs this benefit?

Well... cooking is basic chemistry... it would be the height of absurdity to claim that only certian ethnicities and races are capable of assembling certain dishes. Also if we were to design an immigration policy with that in mind (which again: absurd) wouldn't we simply be importing chefs and restaurateurs directly? why import whole swathes of people? Its like using a nuclear bomb to cut your lawn...

Well there are many social issues that come with immigration, certain efforts in Toronto were made by muslim groups to bring sharia courts for instance ... there are language problems which have resulted in a great drop in literacy and have actually dumbed universities down... we went from teaching latin and german in little school in the 30's and 40's... to teaching remedial english in our universities...

there are constant tensions, where minorities form groups to champion their interest often at the detriment of others (a sort of power struggle that is exacerbated by mutual distrust and disdain between groups)...

our very identity is severely compromised now... i mean just ask yourself what it really means to be canadian anymore... everyone knows it simply means to live in canada... so there's severe damage to our social fabric...

certain immigrants bring exotic diseases with them... schistosomiasis, Chagas disease, and even certain drug resistant strains of tuberculosis...

there's also the fact that it cheapens labor, and as a result brings down median life quality for all canadians...

above all there is the fact that, per force, by importing the third world we are becoming little by little.. more like the third world... corruption is at an alltime high, our infrastructure is crumbling...

so again, what are the great specific strengths that we receive for such a policy? I stop at restaurants... and even there...

Edited July 11, 2014 by PoliticalAtheist

[Michael Hardner]

so far I've posed my question... and not a single person attempted to answer it directly...

What's the question ? Is it about the benefits of immigration ? It's a long thread - the answers are in there.

[Michael Hardner]

How about we just start with that. One advantage of living in a multicultural society like Canada is a wonderful selection of ethnic restaurants.

Now, can you name a disadvantage that outweighs this benefit?

That's a set-up. Can we start with the advantage of economic growth instead ?

[Michael Hardner]

Well... cooking is basic chemistry... it would be the height of absurdity to claim that only certian ethnicities and races are capable of assembling certain dishes. Also if we were to design an immigration policy with that in mind (which again: absurd) wouldn't we simply be importing chefs and restaurateurs directly? why import whole swathes of people? Its like using a nuclear bomb to cut your lawn...

Are you actually arguing that without immigration we'd still have so-called ethnic foods ?

Well there are many social issues that come with immigration, certain efforts in Toronto were made by muslim groups to bring sharia courts for instance ...

That's not accurate. Religious tribunals were in existence *already* for Christians and Jews and were scrapped because the same right was to be fairly accorded to Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Islamic_Congress#cite_ref-26

there are language problems which have resulted in a great drop in literacy and have actually dumbed universities down... we went from teaching latin and german in little school in the 30's and 40's... to teaching remedial english in our universities...

Our university standards are extremely high and you need top marks to get in. I'd like to see evidence of a great drop in literacy please and "remedial english" being taught as a university course.

Really, these are just not credible claims.

there are constant tensions, where minorities form groups to champion their interest often at the detriment of others (a sort of power struggle that is exacerbated by mutual distrust and disdain between groups)...

This is a subjective evaluation, and given the claim you made above I suggest you're projecting your own distrust onto others.

our very identity is severely compromised now... i mean just ask yourself what it really means to be canadian anymore... everyone knows it simply means to live in canada... so there's severe damage to our social fabric...

What is "Canadian identity" ? Explain where this is described and how it's causing damage to our social fabric ?

certain immigrants bring exotic diseases with them... schistosomiasis, Chagas disease, and even certain drug resistant strains of tuberculosis...

there's also the fact that it cheapens labor, and as a result brings down median life quality for all canadians...

above all there is the fact that, per force, by importing the third world we are becoming little by little.. more like the third world... corruption is at an alltime high, our infrastructure is crumbling...

so again, what are the great specific strengths that we receive for such a policy? I stop at restaurants... and even there...

More unsubstantiated claims - please provide cites for these... or join the large mass of people who simply spout made-up facts because they don't like immigrants. The only person on MLW who has ever come close to making a convincing argument for discriminatory immigration (which I use in the positive sense of the word) is Argus.

Others just make things up...

[Michael Hardner]

While it is true that growth through immigration is not universally accepted by economists as the best path - it seems to me that the prevailing consensus favours it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/for-canada-immigration-is-a-key-to-prosperity/article14711281/

[Black Dog]

so far I've posed my question... and not a single person attempted to answer it directly...

this is the problem I'm having when I talk about this...

surely someone has SOMETHING beyond different ethnic restaurants... right?

Good enough reason for me.

[Black Dog]

And these sorts of things don't appeal to English Canadians?

Are you seriously arguing that there's no white Anglo enclaves?

Now we're back to that arguemnt which says a Canadian is someone for whom a clerk has processed some documents, not someone who has any knowledge of or interest in Canada's history, culture, language or people. Not buying it. Just because some rich guy in Hong Kong pays a few pennies to buy himself a Canadian passport and keep it in his safe "just in case" I'm not going to consider him a Canadian.

He's a foreigner to me.

What about a person who was born here and who has no has any knowledge of or interest in Canada's history, culture, or people? Lots of native-born folks would fit the bill, yet there's no citizenship test for them.

[eyeball]

I have to say one of the main reasons I've always come down on the side of immigrants is that it pisses off so many conservatives.

It's a cheap political thrill I know but there are so few left in this overtly right wing world we live in we have to enjoy then when and where we can.

[Michael Hardner]

... overtly right wing world we live in we have to enjoy then when and where we can.

The big money is behind immigrants, though. This is why they push as hard as they can without showing up too visibly on the radar a la TFW...

[cybercoma]

And you are doing exactly the same. But I am wrong to do so and you are righteous.Correct?Question. Why do so many immigrants settle in the same areas and live together?

You're wrong because you want to stifle people's freedom to communicate with each other in whatever language they choose. I can think of a few countries that wouldn't want you to speak in English in public with your other English-speaking friends/family. None of those would I want to emulate.

[cybercoma]

And these sorts of things don't appeal to English Canadians?

thats why English Canadians also live together and some of them, like you, want to keep others out. It's pretty hypocritical when you ask why immigrants keep together in one breath, while complaining about their presence in the next.

[cybercoma]

Now we're back to that arguemnt which says a Canadian is someone for whom a clerk has processed some documents, not someone who has any knowledge of or interest in Canada's history, culture, language or people.

Born citizens aren't tested on those things, while naturalized citizens are. I would bet money on the fact that MANY Canadians couldn't pass the citizenship test because they don't have the knowledge they would need of our history, culture, and government.

[carepov]

Well... it would be the height of absurdity to claim that only certian ethnicities and races are capable of assembling certain dishes.

Yes, you are correct. Good thing that I never made that claim.

Well there are many social issues that come with immigration, certain efforts in Toronto were made by muslim groups to bring sharia courts for instance ... there are language problems which have resulted in a great drop in literacy and have actually dumbed universities down... we went from teaching latin and german in little school in the 30's and 40's... to teaching remedial english in our universities...

there are constant tensions, where minorities form groups to champion their interest often at the detriment of others (a sort of power struggle that is exacerbated by mutual distrust and disdain between groups)...

our very identity is severely compromised now... i mean just ask yourself what it really means to be canadian anymore... everyone knows it simply means to live in canada... so there's severe damage to our social fabric...

certain immigrants bring exotic diseases with them... schistosomiasis, Chagas disease, and even certain drug resistant strains of tuberculosis...

there's also the fact that it cheapens labor, and as a result brings down median life quality for all canadians...

above all there is the fact that, per force, by importing the third world we are becoming little by little.. more like the third world... corruption is at an alltime high, our infrastructure is crumbling...

As MH pointed out, your claims are false.

Here is another real benefit to multiculturalism: http://www.folklorama.ca/

[Big Guy]

There are many things that we can learn from speaking to immigrants on the reasons they are in Canada. I do understand but feel sorry for those who are uncomfortable living and working with people who are not like them - either language, religion, culture, colour ... Life cannot be very pleasant if one can only enjoy the company of like folks.

I think we are basically discussing feelings and beliefs. Neither of these can be changed through examples and trying to convince another to change their views.

I thank Argus for voicing his views since it gives me a better insight of the rationale of those who feel as he does.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus is simply the best on here at providing actual reasons, and even rationale, for his beliefs about immigration. Those of us who favour immigration and multiculturalism need to acknowledge that his views are reflected in the views of millions of Canadians so to dismiss them out of hand does not help social cohesion.

The best argument in his arsenal, IMO, is that the economic rationale for immigration is not proven, even if it's part of the prevailing orthodoxy. I also feel that Canada could pick and choose its immigrants better - however the other arguments on here show how difficult those discussions can be.

It's impossible to pick a set of criteria to evaluate immigrants without invoking prejudices on both sides of the question... but I do think it could be possible if there was a healthy and fact-based public dialogue.

[Remiel]

Am I less Canadian than the rest of you? I was born here and have spent my whole life here, rarely leaving the country except for short vacations. My parents were born in Canada, and most of their parents, except for one, who was born in Scotland and came here as a child. I fairly strongly identify as being Scottish in addition to being Canadian. Canada, in fact, could be said to be the most Scottish country in the World outside of Scotland. But Scotland is not Canada, and I was wondering if my being Scottish and Canadian makes me a defective Canadian somehow.

[PoliticalAtheist]

Yes, you are correct. Good thing that I never made that claim.

As MH pointed out, your claims are false.

Here is another real benefit to multiculturalism: http://www.folklorama.ca/

ok so everything I said is a complete lie... there never were sharia courts debated... sure...

while it's true that Jews retained minor communal law rights IN ONTARIO, similar sharia proposals were made in Quebec, where there is no faith based arbitration. So the claim that its about "equal rights" is bogus. Either way, we have to recognise that the debacle is actually an argument against multiculturalism, and another example of the conflict it creates... why should there be any special treatment of ANY minority if the goal is EQUALITY... how did the jews and chirstians get priviledges in the first place? doubtlessly through similar tension and noise... and here's another example of the multiplicity of problems that come with multiculturalism: if we give one ethnicity a priviledge... we have to grant them to ALL (almost indiscriminantly mind you) or there's rioting and anger... some strength and advantage...

And immigrants don't bring exotic diseases ? http://www.cmaj.ca/content/169/10/1035.full

We fund special screening programs for immigrants from certain regions of the world: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/12/1742.full

"In most immigrant source regions, infectious diseases continue to represent major causes of death and morbidity due to respiratory infections, gastrointestinal and diarrheal diseases [12], tuberculosis [13], and HIV infection/AIDS [14]. The risks of infectious disease acquisition in those source nations are manifest in certain immigrant and migrant populations after they move to their new destination. As migration continues in an increasingly globalized world, health care providers at the primary care and specialist level can expect to be faced with the challenges of recognition, diagnosis, and management of diseases that are themselves the consequences of international factors."

immigrants the US's CDC covers the phenomenon pretty clearly: http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/2008/02/t20080227c.html

and they know that there is a risk for contagion brought about from immigration chiefly from sub saharan africa and Mexico in particular.

As for Universities dropping in value... I thought this was common knowledge... University degrees in Canada are increasingly worthless... 1 in 4 graduates work in jobs where they are overqualified, 2 out of 4 don't even work in their area of study... and the rest are engineers, scientists, doctors who still retain value from their degrees

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/why-are-so-many-of-canada-s-young-people-out-of-work-1.1370260

but: http://business.financialpost.com/2013/08/26/the-value-of-education-is-dropping-fast-for-university-graduates/

about every university has its bevy of ESL courses, some of them even offer degrees in ESL: http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/info/regist/calendars/programs/1144.html

surely you knew this right? I mean were you taking the position that english was strengthened by the influx of people from countries with different languages? that's a little self evident.

and again... there have been countless reports that migrant workers and other low skill immigrants have double negative impact: A/ they displace jobs for current citizens and B/ consume much more in services than they contribute in taxes.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/17/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report/

I agree that high expertise immigrants offer much more value... but again, our immigration policy doesn't work like that... we don't import high skill immigrants only... we import to increase diversity and strengthen multiculturalism which our government tells us is our strength (some even go so far as to say its our greatest strength)

yet still... it stands to reason doesn't it? WHAT ARE THE CONCRETE SPECIFIC STRENGTHS PROVIDED BY MULTICULTURALISM AND OR/DIVERSITY?

again... we all we have pointed to so far is : ethnic food...

just sayin' ...

Edited July 11, 2014 by PoliticalAtheist

[Michael Hardner]

ok so everything I said is a complete lie... there never were sharia courts debated... sure...

Not a lie but inaccurate. Muslims didn't try to bring anything in - religious courts were already in existence for Jews and Christians.

while it's true that Jews retained minor communal law rights IN ONTARIO, similar sharia proposals were made in Quebec, where there is no faith based arbitration. So the claim that its about "equal rights" is bogus.

Ok, given that you were inaccurate in your claim about Toronto - surely you won't be reluctant to post a cite for this new claim right ?

Either way, we have to recognise that the debacle is actually an argument against multiculturalism, and another example of the conflict it creates... why should there be any special treatment of ANY minority if the goal is EQUALITY...

Equality means equal treatment - that's elementary. That's not special it's just fair.

And... The rest of your post is of low quality - basically moving the goalposts on universities teaching remedial English to offering ESL classes... not responding to your extreme statements about corruption and our social fabric... and so on. Trying to paint immigrants as corrupting disease bags who will end Canada as we know it. Moving the goalposts and linking to individual instances of thing don't make an argument, sorry.

....

In other words, what we have here is yet another low quality anti-immigration argument. We have one poster here who represents that viewpoint with any degree of substantiated argument, and the rest of you drop by from time to time to take a few shots then move on... that's my experience anyway.

[hitops]

Argus is simply the best on here at providing actual reasons, and even rationale, for his beliefs about immigration. Those of us who favour immigration and multiculturalism need to acknowledge that his views are reflected in the views of millions of Canadians so to dismiss them out of hand does not help social cohesion.

The best argument in his arsenal, IMO, is that the economic rationale for immigration is not proven, even if it's part of the prevailing orthodoxy. I also feel that Canada could pick and choose its immigrants better - however the other arguments on here show how difficult those discussions can be.

It's impossible to pick a set of criteria to evaluate immigrants without invoking prejudices on both sides of the question... but I do think it could be possible if there was a healthy and fact-based public dialogue.

It may be impossible to prove the economic benefits of immigration overall, but we can look at some proxy measures. For example, which ethnic groups have the best/worst outcomes in terms of crime, social mobility, education, employment etc?

We can look at both examples of different group in the US and Canada, and also the examples of nations where immigration is very restricted. In the US there are plenty of stats to inform that.

In the US, we know that people of Asian descent outperform whites, latinos, native americans and blacks. Those statistics are reported. This is a very important example, because it shows how the type of person you let in matters. The Asians that come here are very often for professional or technical expertise, and so you are selecting our the professional class to a large extent. Obviously your average Asian has a far worse outcome worldwide than you average white person. Top of the heap are Jews, who have the best outcomes worldwide. I realize 'Jew' is not a color, but it is an ethnic group and an interesting fact.

Now what about countries with limited immigration? The ones that come to mind are the Scandinavian nations, Japans and South Korea. They also all tend to top the lists of economic and educational metrics. This is not a coincidence, being very choosy is important in maintaining prosperity.

The reality is that not everyone is equal. That's why not every group does about equally well. Different value systems have different results. For a long time the US demolished the world in terms of productivity, innovation and standard of living. Currently they are working hard at destroying that; just letting in anyone who can make it across the border, launching massive social projects, printing trillions of dollars, emphasizing skin color/cultural/religion differences for voter exploitation, etc.

Edited July 11, 2014 by hitops

[hitops]

Equality means equal treatment - that's elementary. That's not special it's just fair.

The problem is that most people who are advocating for equality, are actually advocating for special treatment.

In other words, in order to make everyone more 'equal', some people need special treatment. That's not equality, it's the furthest thing from it.

PA is absolutely right that immigrants have higher rates of hazardous infectious diseases. I'm not sure why you would want to debate that, it's well known and easy to find data on it. That doesn't mean they are bad people, it's just the reality of where they come from in many cases.

I also question you claim about Canada's university standards. What? If you can pull a 60 or 70 in high school, just about any uni will accept you in SOME program. You would have to seriously be a moron to find no Canadian uni that would take you.

Edited July 11, 2014 by hitops

[-1=e^ipi]

Are you actually arguing that without immigration we'd still have so-called ethnic foods ?

You are arguing that Canada wouldn't?

Our university standards are extremely high and you need top marks to get in. I'd like to see evidence of a great drop in literacy please and "remedial english" being taught as a university course.

Lol. I really laughed out loud at this one. Canada's university standards are high? What universe do you live in?

[PoliticalAtheist]

Not a lie but inaccurate. Muslims didn't try to bring anything in - religious courts were already in existence for Jews and Christians.

Ok, given that you were inaccurate in your claim about Toronto - surely you won't be reluctant to post a cite for this new claim right ?

Equality means equal treatment - that's elementary. That's not special it's just fair.

And... The rest of your post is of low quality - basically moving the goalposts on universities teaching remedial English to offering ESL classes... not responding to your extreme statements about corruption and our social fabric... and so on. Trying to paint immigrants as corrupting disease bags who will end Canada as we know it. Moving the goalposts and linking to individual instances of thing don't make an argument, sorry.

....

In other words, what we have here is yet another low quality anti-immigration argument. We have one poster here who represents that viewpoint with any degree of substantiated argument, and the rest of you drop by from time to time to take a few shots then move on... that's my experience anyway.

that's pretty unreasonable... I came here to ask for concrete, specific, measurable advantages brought upon by our policy of multiculturalism... I am on the fence at the moment as I come from the position that multioculturalism is a strength... I'm just looking for arguments, because in debates with people who take the opposing views... I invariably fail to produce anything substantive... (again, above ethnic cuisine).

instead of listing some examples, you went ahead and simply rejected every argument I had heard and reproduced here, while offering none to substantiate the position that multiculturalism is a great strength...

posts of low quality? you keep asking for sources for my pretty common knowledge statements... our crop of imimgrants create language issues and lower literacy rates (how is this even controversial?) who would ask for sources on this?... or: "immigrants bring exotic diseases" (again that's not like claiming that the earth is flat)... these aren't astonishing or extreme claims...

I didn't move any goalposts... I'm merely ecchoing the pretty hard to dispute arguments as I have heard... but again... why can't people on the side of multiculturalism , calmly and soberly point out to some facts supporting the notion that multiculturalism is a great source of strength for us... instead of (like you guys did) asking ME to list some reasons why it isn't...

the work is already done on the subject and there way worse stuff out there... I'm asking for positive statements to support multiculturalism...

you can't asnwer my question with "we should all be equal"... that's not a specific example of strength... and we should'nt (like you did) point to areas of tension, conflict and inequality (because that also isn't a good argument for multiculturalism... on the contrary: you're playing in the hands of the people who say multiculturalism in canada is an ORDEAL... you're literally showing why it doesn't work!

anyways... I already sense a good deal of resentment and emotional outrage on your part... called me a liar, that sets up strawmen arguments and that is "anti" this and that and the other thing...

if you can't point out to concrete worthwhile arguments of benefits we would not have were it not for multiculturalism... than that says it all doesn't it?

[guyser]

Just to add....Who do you think is buying the house below yours (in price and area) thus allowing that person to scale up and buy a nicer house who then in turn THAT person makes an offer on yours?

So if you have profitted lately , be thankful. Without any immigrants we would be looking at less value in our homes.