Khadr Wins Transfer

[cybercoma]

Where would I draw the line? I would, first of all, not automatically give citizenship to those born here unless they're born to Canadian citizens.

This has got to be trolling.

[Smallc]

You're a theoretical danger to the Canadian populace. Every person walking this earth is a theoretical danger to others.

I haven't killed someone. I haven't spent most of my life in prison. I don't lack proper social adjustment.

[cybercoma]

I haven't killed someone. I haven't spent most of my life in prison. I don't lack proper social adjustment.

Wow. That's just great. They took his formative years from him. Put him in a cage and tortured him. Therefore, he shouldn't be helped.....he should be treated like a criminal and a prisoner for the rest of his life.

And for the record, you don't know that he killed someone either. You're going by faulty evidence and a confession that was the result of agonizing torture. Given the conditions he was in, they would have had you confessing to murder too.

[Smallc]

I didn't say he shouldn't be helped. He shouldn't be trusted though.

[Argus]

Further to my idea about citizenship, a quick look finds the following:

No European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship to the children of immigrants. The children of immigrants (second generation) in many European countries also must acquire citizenship; access to citizenship occurs only after fulfilling certain residency or age requirements. For example, second-generation children born in France of two non-French parents cannot become French citizens until they turn 18, provided they have resided in France for at least five years.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/citizenship-globalized-world

[On Guard for Thee]

Charter has nothing to do with it. The Charter doesn't define citizenship. Where would I draw the line? I would, first of all, not automatically give citizenship to those born here unless they're born to Canadian citizens. Second, The children of immigrants would only become Canadian citizens if raised in Canada.

It has everything to do with it. And as to your ideas as to amendments, red flags would, and should, go up all over the place to thinking people.

[Argus]

It has everything to do with it. And as to your ideas as to amendments, red flags would, and should, go up all over the place to thinking people.

Why? Our current generous citizenship laws are based on a time before jet travel. Few countries in the world have such laws. Few countries will readily grant citizenship to anyone who happens to be born there, even if born to foreigners. Almost no European countries do this.

[jacee]

No there are instances where when a Canadian born citizen can qualify.

You'll have to provide evidence to support that.

I think Harper tried his best to make a law that would allow him to ship Omar Khadr off somewhere else, but he found out that he couldn't: Omar was born in Canada and has no other citizenship.

And obviously Harper was also targeting the Khadr family, some of whom may have other or dual citizenship. However, Harper hasn't moved to charge, convict or strip any of them of Canadian citizenship.

The whole drama was just a sop to Harper's base, more of our money wasted by Harper trying to look tough. :/

Edit/add:

I don't have a problem with stripping citizenship from dual citizens who obtained it fraudulently, by lying about their residency. In fact this case is so blatant it's an insult:

http://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-latest-edition/20140729/281513634287900/TextView

But I don't believe the Khadr ' s have yet been investigated for that.

.

Edited May 17, 2015 by jacee

[cybercoma]

Further to my idea about citizenship, a quick look finds the following:

No European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship to the children of immigrants. The children of immigrants (second generation) in many European countries also must acquire citizenship; access to citizenship occurs only after fulfilling certain residency or age requirements. For example, second-generation children born in France of two non-French parents cannot become French citizens until they turn 18, provided they have resided in France for at least five years.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/citizenship-globalized-world

Just to let you know, even though you have me on ignore , Canada ratified the UN Convention on Statelessness in 1961. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Reduction_of_Statelessness

Since Khadr's father's state (Egypt) did not sign nor ratify the agreement, he would not automatically become a citizen of Egypt if Khadr was stripped of his Canadian citizenship. His mother is Palestinian and Israel did sign the convention, but did not ratify it. So it's unclear whether he would become a Palestinian citizen of Israel.

But the scenario is pretty amusing. This kid whom you want to protect Canada from by stripping away his birthright citizenship could potentially become a citizen of Israel, having never stepped foot there in life. More importantly, you want someone, whom you've labelled as a Islamofascist terrorist, to become a citizen of Israel.

But let's say that he would apply for a Palestinian Passport, which has been around since the late 90s. Their citizenship is so unclear that it appears he wouldn't even be eligible for it because you have to be born in Palestine to get one.

So we're back to the same problem. Making a citizen stateless without trial or due process. Canada cannot legally do that according to the international convention it has signed. You believe in the rule of law, right?

[Moonlight Graham]

He deserves less. Rehabilitative treatment is what the U.N. child soldier program calls for not punishment.

The adults who exploited Omar Khadr need to be punished for anything he might have done, not him.

Well I hope you agree he deserved some kind of punishment. Kids in Canada get punished by the law for much less than what Khadr did. Rehab isn't punishment. His parents also must be dealt with.

I agree though that he needs rehab too and if he was tortured (including waterboarding) by the US military our government needs raise hell, publicly.

[Topaz]

This woman, the widow, may wish she never open this can of worms, so to speak, because this could lead to some nasty situation between Canada and the US and other countries. Should the Canadians who were killed by friendly fire by the US sued them too? What about the people in Afghanistan and Iraq, are they going to sued all those nations that killed their people?

[capricorn]

This woman, the widow, may wish she never open this can of worms, so to speak, because this could lead to some nasty situation between Canada and the US and other countries.

I don't think we should jump to conclusions. First, let's see how her lawsuit pans out then we can raise all the doomsday scenarios we can muster.

[eyeball]

Well I hope you agree he deserved some kind of punishment.

No I disagree completely. He's utterly innocent IMO even if he actually killed someone.

Every shred of guilt belongs on the heads of those who exploited him.

[Smallc]

I don't think we should jump to conclusions. First, let's see how her lawsuit pans out then we can raise all the doomsday scenarios we can muster.

Wow, nice to see you back.

[Moonlight Graham]

No I disagree completely. He's utterly innocent IMO even if he actually killed someone.

Every shred of guilt belongs on the heads of those who exploited him.

Well I think most of the blame is on the parents and exploiters. At the same time, he was 15, not 4. He still had some free will in that developing brain of his. If you were 15 and your parents told you to throw a grenade at someone and build explosives to kill people, would you do it? I wouldn't. Granted, you probably were raised much better than Omar was to make such a decision.

[jacee]

Child soldiers do take some responsibility for their actions, for the damage ... but as juveniles not as adults, and with focus on rehabilitative work, not punitive incarceration.

It's part of their recovery.

Khadr has been handled all wrong.

.

Edited May 19, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

Well I think most of the blame is on the parents and exploiters. At the same time, he was 15, not 4. He still had some free will in that developing brain of his. If you were 15 and your parents told you to throw a grenade at someone and build explosives to kill people, would you do it? I wouldn't. Granted, you probably were raised much better than Omar was to make such a decision.

If you had been raised from around the age of 8 by your parents and other adults entrusted to your care to believe you were honourably defending yourself, your family and the world from evil monstrous criminals what would you do?

I wonder if during the short time he was educated in Canada that he was instructed to obey his parents? Wouldn't that be ironic?

I certainly don't recall being taught that I should disobey my parents do you?

Edited May 19, 2015 by eyeball

[eyeball]

Child soldiers do take some responsibility for their actions, for the damage ... but as juveniles not as adults, and with focus on rehabilitative work, not punitive incarceration.

It's part of their recovery.

Khadr has been handled all wrong.

.

I have little doubt most child-soldiers that do hurt or kill people while soldiering end up bearing more guilt and PTSD after rehabilitation than any adult soldier ever does.

Come to think of it I can't imagine anyone more likely to empathize with Omar Khadr than a scrambled volunteer soldier unless it was a scrambled drafted soldier.

[Keepitsimple]

If you had been raised from around the age of 8 by your parents and other adults entrusted to your care to believe you were honourably defending yourself, your family and the world from evil monstrous criminals what would you do?

I wonder if during the short time he was educated in Canada that he was instructed to obey his parents? Wouldn't that be ironic?

I certainly don't recall being taught that I should disobey my parents do you?

Good thought - and pretty well describes the frustrating Jihadist, hate-the-West mentality....the old teach the young and it goes from generation to generation. Look at schools in Gaza where they literally teach kids to hate Jews. As I've said before - it's not all about Khadr - it's about terrorism. Terrorism is a different crime - a crime against innocents. The sentences - and the need to serve them to their fullest - reflects society's repugnance with the scourge that is threatening the very soul of humanity. Sure - Khadr may be a nice guy - or not....you can make as many apologies for him as you want......but the message must be clear - Western society will apply the full extent of the law against terrorism.

[Je suis Omar]

Well I hope you agree he deserved some kind of punishment. Kids in Canada get punished by the law for much less than what Khadr did. Rehab isn't punishment. His parents also must be dealt with.

There sure are a lot of folks making huge assumptions based on nothing but lies and innuendo.

agree though that he needs rehab too and if he was tortured (including waterboarding) by the US military our government needs raise hell, publicly.

Yeah right! Have you heard the Canadian poodles raise even a whine or a whimper about USA war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, about two centuries of terrorism/war crimes against Cuba? And the list goes on and on.

And what's worse, there are an awful lot of silent Canadians, you know, those good, kind Canadian people.

[On Guard for Thee]

Good thought - and pretty well describes the frustrating Jihadist, hate-the-West mentality....the old teach the young and it goes from generation to generation. Look at schools in Gaza where they literally teach kids to hate Jews. As I've said before - it's not all about Khadr - it's about terrorism. Terrorism is a different crime - a crime against innocents. The sentences - and the need to serve them to their fullest - reflects society's repugnance with the scourge that is threatening the very soul of humanity. Sure - Khadr may be a nice guy - or not....you can make as many apologies for him as you want......but the message must be clear - Western society will apply the full extent of the law against terrorism.

Applying the law is fine, but it must be done lawfully in the first place in order to stand.

[Je suis Omar]

Good thought - and pretty well describes the frustrating Jihadist, hate-the-West mentality....the old teach the young and it goes from generation to generation. Look at schools in Gaza where they literally teach kids to hate Jews. As I've said before - it's not all about Khadr - it's about terrorism. Terrorism is a different crime - a crime against innocents. The sentences - and the need to serve them to their fullest - reflects society's repugnance with the scourge that is threatening the very soul of humanity. .

This is illustrative of either profound ignorance (non pejorative sense) or the deliberate willfull blindness of way too many westerners.

How can you ignore the fact that the USA pretty much invented terrorism? That the USA has been employing terrorism since before it became a "nation".

The Philippines, Hawaii, Cuba, every South and Central American country, Vietnam, Korea, Angola, Laos, Cambodia, ... .

"By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In 78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation."

-- Lt General William Odom

You're looking the wrong direction for the scourge that is threatening humanity.

If the total number of deaths that have been caused by "terrorists" to the USA since 1980, let's assume that total is 5000, and if this number were to continue on a yearly basis, it would take about six centuries for the tally to become equal. And that's only for the USA terrorism against the people of Vietnam.

There's still Korea, another six centuries; Cambodia, another two centuries; ..., ..., ... .

Edited May 20, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[On Guard for Thee]

This is illustrative of either profound ignorance (non pejorative sense) or the deliberate willfull blindness of way too many westerners.

How can you ignore the fact that the USA pretty much invented terrorism? That the USA has been employing terrorism since before it became a "nation".

The Philippines, Hawaii, Cuba, every South and Central American country, Vietnam, Korea, Angola, Laos, Cambodia, ... .

"By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In 78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation."

-- Lt General William Odom

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have heard your screed on that subject already. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

[Je suis Omar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have heard your screed on that subject already. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

On the topic of terrorism, you think that terrorism shouldn't be discussed, OGFT. Is that an example if clear thinking?

[On Guard for Thee]

On the topic of terrorism, you think that terrorism shouldn't be discussed, OGFT. Is that an example if clear thinking?

This topic is about the legal implications of a certain case, not breathless, holus bolus accusations of the US.