kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[John]

I waiver on the two-state solution. It seems like another salami-slice of Israel. Shouldn't the Arabs be contributing land and/or money to make a "Palestinian" state viable?

I suppose that if things ever became serious in that regard, then there may be arab/muslim states which would want to contribute financially.

[dre]

I waver on the two-state solution. It seems like another salami-slice of Israel. Shouldn't the Arabs be contributing land and/or money to make a "Palestinian" state viable?

Why would they need to? Neither Israel or its Arab neighbors need to give the palestinians ANY territory.

[John]

I waver on the two-state solution. It seems like another salami-slice of Israel. Shouldn't the Arabs be contributing land and/or money to make a "Palestinian" state viable?

Further to that point...I don't know if either warring party would be open to a one-state solution...

[dre]

Further to that point...I don't know if either warring party would be open to a one-state solution...

Thats pretty much a non starter.

In any case its all besides the point. Israel wants ALL the useful land, and they are taking it bit by bit.

[Rue]

West Coast I understand why people like you criticize the death of Palestinian civilians. You see the news stories, the brief shots of children, blood, civilians screaming. Got it. It gets to you.

That is the picture you see. But you stop at that picture.

There's more. What you did not see are three men on a motor cycle who shot a rocket then drove on a road to draw fire onto the UNWRA school before suddenly accelerating and getting themselves out of the way of fire.

That you did not see.

Now what you will hear is the US State Department reflecting its pro Hamas bias irresponsibly stating to the media not in private to Israel, that what its doing is despicable.

By choosing to take that criticism and place it in the media, and not convey it to Israel privately, the State Department has done exactly what Hamas wants. Its promoting and rewarding Hamas for the exact tactic it used.

Kerry and Obama were warned by Egypt, by Abbas, by Saudi Arabia, by Israel, time and time again, save your comments behind closed doors. Every time you open your mouth and make one sided statements you provide fuel on the fire to Hamas to do it again and do it again they did.

Not too long after, Hamas attacked a bus in Jerusalem, The rockets continue. There will be more attempts to draw Israeli fire to schools.

Precisely because Obama and Kerry are dupes, complete idiots who choose to spew off at the mouth and fuel this war.

When will Kerry learn to shut the phack up. When will the UN head learn to hold off on one sided comments that knee jerk react exactly how Hamas wants.

Enough.

All you arm chair experts on Hamas fuel their killing civilians each time you chip on cue like Kerry.

Its what they want and why they will keep placing their civilians in harms way.

As for you arm chair geniuses that think Israel should sit at a table with Hamas who have broken 4 truces now and for the one Hamas apologist and arm chair security expert on Hamas who lectures one must sit with terrorists who laugh at truces and keep trying, you are past the point of absurdity.

No you do not sit at a table with a terrorist who has said time and time again, truces are a joke. We use them to kill.

Its far past that. If Hamas is serious, Israel will get the message from Egypt. The last place Israel should be is at a table.

If it sits at a table it tells Hamas, keep killing,keep breaking truces because we are idiots and will come back for more.

Its over. No more games. No more Kerry defending Hamas. No more Hamas demanding the embargo lifted so it can rearm itself to continue attacking Israel. No more geniuses claiming they know what Hamas thinks.

Its over.

If and when Hamas wants to stop firing it will. Its no where near that point. Not even close.

Hamas thinks it has won its war and can continue precisely because of the comments yesterday by the State Department and the UN. Those comments have just fueled its belief that killing civilians is getting it results.

If and when Hamas tells Egypt it has no more rockets, Egypt will tell Israel.Any fool, any idiot who thinks Israel has to sit in a room with blatant lying killers who will kill even more civilians in the days to come should get on a plane now for Gaza and shut the phack up. Until they die because of what Hamas is doing they have no business telling Palestinians or Israel what is good for them,

Arm chair experts.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rue

[John]

Thats pretty much a non starter.

In any case its all besides the point. Israel wants ALL the useful land, and they are taking it bit by bit.

And Hamas wants to eliminate Israel.

So we're at a good point in the process...

[marcus]

Too bad for Hamas, Israel already exists and is not going anywhere.

After 60+ years, Israel still has not agreed to a Palestinian State. Not even after the Palestinians officially accepted Israel as a State in 1993. Hamas became relevant only in the late 90's. What was Israel's excuse then? Something else. They always have an excuse not to negotiate and to continue their expansionism and land theft.

[jacee]

<snide and irrelevant comment removed, to improve the quality of discussion>

The proposal did nothing but leave Israel vulnerable to more attacks. At this point, there will be no peace while Hamas is in charge - Israel will make sure of that. All of Israel is behind Netanyahu in this. It's too bad that the palestinians seem to think Hamas is there for them.

Let's just make sure that we have a common understanding of what the State of Israel is and is not:

At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

...

Ever since, Mr. Begin had preached undying loyalty to what he called Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and promoted Jewish settlement there. But he did not annex the West Bank and Gaza to Israel after he took office, reflecting a recognition that absorbing the Palestinians could turn Israel into a bi-national state instead of a Jewish one.[1]

Israel captured and occupied the West Bank and Gaza illegally as places where Arabs kicked out of Israel could be contained, controlled and subdued by force.

Israel wants control from the river to the sea, but does not want the Arabs living there to be citizens of Israel as their numbers would overwhelm the Jewish population.

One might consider the Palestinian territories as large concentration camps where Israel exiled and contains 'undesirables' not welcome in their 'democratic' Jewish state.

That's the reality.

So the answer to your question becomes obvious:

Again I ask, what is Hamas' plan?

Hamas' plan ... along with the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority ... is to free Gaza and the West Bank from the stifling control of Israel so they can develop economically into a free and self-reliant state.

There's a lot of extremist rhetoric on both sides, about pushing the other into the sea, killing all the Jews/ killing all the "animals" in the West Bank and Gaza ... etc.

Everybody knows that neither of those things are going to happen.

Israel is going to wall itself in to keep out the 'undesirable' Arabs - descended from refugees who formerly lived in Israel and were pushed out.

Palestinians are going to continue rebelling against Israeli oppression and 'apartheid'.

The 10 year cease fire proposal by Hamas is a very reasonable effort, all focused on providing freedom for Gaza to develop and become a fully functioning part of an independent Palestinian state.

That's Hamas' plan.

[dre]

And Hamas wants to eliminate Israel.

So we're at a good point in the process...

I dont think Hamas believes for even a second that they can eliminate Israel. The best they can hope for is to keep baiting Israel into these exchanges where a lot of civilians get killed, so that palestinians stay angry and Hamas stays relevant.

Israel CAN and WILL finish its conquest of the occupied territories though regardless of what palestinians do.

And you have to realize theres a lot of political profit to be had by groups like Hamas and Likud from events like this. They make it unlikely that there will be support for any of their more moderate opposition.

Edited August 4, 2014 by dre

[jbg]

I suppose that if things ever became serious in that regard, then there may be arab/muslim states which would want to contribute financially.

I highly doubt it. Where were they in helping with Indonesia's tsunami? Hint, the Aussies, Canadians and U.S. were the ones that were there to help.

[John]

Hamas' plan ... along with the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority ... is to free Gaza and the West Bank from the stifling control of Israel so they can develop economically into a free and self-reliant state.

The 10 year cease fire proposal by Hamas is a very reasonable effort, all focused on providing freedom for Gaza to develop and become a fully functioning part of an independent Palestinian state.

That's Hamas' plan.

So the plan is to keep bombing Israel until they can "free Gaza and the West Bank from the stifling control of Israel so they can develop economically into a free and self-reliant state."?

[John]

I dont think Hamas believes for even a second that they can eliminate Israel. The best they can hope for is to keep baiting Israel into these exchanges where a lot of civilians get killed, so that palestinians stay angry and Hamas stays relevant.

Israel CAN and WILL finish its conquest of the occupied territories though regardless of what palestinians do.

But if Hamas could do it...they would...right?

[Hal 9000]

Let's just make sure that we have a common understanding of what the State of Israel is and is not:

At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

...

Ever since, Mr. Begin had preached undying loyalty to what he called Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and promoted Jewish settlement there. But he did not annex the West Bank and Gaza to Israel after he took office, reflecting a recognition that absorbing the Palestinians could turn Israel into a bi-national state instead of a Jewish one.[1]

Israel captured and occupied the West Bank and Gaza illegally as places where Arabs kicked out of Israel could be contained, controlled and subdued by force.

Israel wants control from the river to the sea, but does not want the Arabs living there to be citizens of Israel as their numbers would overwhelm the Jewish population.

One might consider the Palestinian territories as large concentration camps where Israel exiled and contains 'undesirables' not welcome in their 'democratic' Jewish state.

That's the reality.

So the answer to your question becomes obvious:

Hamas' plan ... along with the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority ... is to free Gaza and the West Bank from the stifling control of Israel so they can develop economically into a free and self-reliant state.

There's a lot of extremist rhetoric on both sides, about pushing the other into the sea, killing all the Jews/ killing all the "animals" in the West Bank and Gaza ... etc.

Everybody knows that neither of those things are going to happen.

Israel is going to wall itself in to keep out the 'undesirable' Arabs - descended from refugees who formerly lived in Israel and were pushed out.

Palestinians are going to continue rebelling against Israeli oppression and 'apartheid'.

The 10 year cease fire proposal by Hamas is a very reasonable effort, all focused on providing freedom for Gaza to develop and become a fully functioning part of an independent Palestinian state.

That's Hamas' plan.

That's their goal, now what's their plan?

[jacee]

<snide and irrelevant comment removed, to improve the quality of discussion>

The proposal did nothing but leave Israel vulnerable to more attacks. At this point, there will be no peace while Hamas is in charge - Israel will make sure of that. All of Israel is behind Netanyahu in this. It's too bad that the palestinians seem to think Hamas is there for them.

Let's just make sure that we have a common understanding of what the State of Israel is and is not:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel

At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

...

Ever since, Mr. Begin had preached undying loyalty to what he called Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and promoted Jewish settlement there. But he did not annex the West Bank and Gaza to Israel after he took office, reflecting a recognition that absorbing the Palestinians could turn Israel into a bi-national state instead of a Jewish one.[1]

Israel captured and occupied the West Bank and Gaza illegally as places where Arabs kicked out of Israel could be contained, controlled and subdued by force.

Israel wants control from the river to the sea, but does not want the Arabs living there to be citizens of Israel as their numbers would overwhelm the Jewish population.

One might consider the Palestinian territories as large concentration camps where Israel exiled and contains 'undesirables' not welcome in their 'democratic' Jewish state.

That's the reality.

So the answer to your question becomes obvious:

Again I ask, what is Hamas' plan?

Hamas' plan ... along with the Palestinian people and the Palestinian Authority ... is to free Gaza and the West Bank from the stifling control of Israel so they can develop economically into a free and self-reliant state.

There's a lot of extremist rhetoric on both sides, about pushing the other into the sea, killing all the Jews/ killing all the "animals" in the West Bank and Gaza ... etc.

Everybody knows that neither of those things are going to happen.

Israel is going to wall itself in to keep out the 'undesirable' Arabs - descended from refugees who formerly lived in Israel and were pushed out.

Palestinians are going to continue rebelling against Israeli oppression and 'apartheid'.

The 10 year cease fire proposal by Hamas is a very reasonable effort, all focused on providing freedom for Gaza to develop and become a fully functioning part of an independent Palestinian state.

That's Hamas' plan.

[jacee]

That's their goal, now what's their plan?

Read Hamas' cease fire proposal for yourself.

.

Edited August 4, 2014 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

Read the cease fire proposal.

.

Look, if you don't know the difference between a goal and a plan...I don't know what else to say to you.

Ok - Here's an example

Hal's goal: To make a million dollars

Hal's plan: I'll bilk old folks out of their savings

You see, a plan is a ways to achieving a goal.

Hamas has plans - we all know that, however differing they may be, but what is the plan? They know that they can't win the military war, they know Israel won't willing cave in to their demands, so...?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Hal 9000

[jacee]

Look, if you don't know the difference between a goal and a plan...I don't know what else to say to you.

Ok - Here's an example

Hal's goal: To make a million dollars

Hal's plan: I'll bilk old folks out of their savings

You see, a plan is a ways to achieving a goal.

Hamas has plans - we all know that, however differing they may be, but what is the plan? They know that they can't win the military war, they know Israel won't willing cave in to their demands, so...?

So read the plan and comment on it from an informed perspective.

You'll have to google it yourself though because I've already posted links several times which you apparently ignored, resorting to lazy juvenile insults instead of informing yourself.

.

Edited August 4, 2014 by jacee

[Rue]

John the one problem in the dialogue with Dre is he thinks he knows what Hamas thinks.

In fact to understand Hamas and their passion to rid Israel off the map one only need read their daily missives on its web site.

They most certainly believe they will take back Israel. I take them at their word. This is reflected in their charter, songs, chants, missives in the media... they believe they are in a religious battle and God and will prevail and everyone who dies for their cause is a martyr.

This collective religious psychosis is blatantly manifested and Dre's denial of it reflects his own bias and continued attempt to deny what Hamas is and what it stands for.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rue

[overthere]

That's Hamas' plan.

Was that quoted from the original Persian, or did you quote the Arabic translation?

[jacee]

Was that quoted from the original Persian, or did you quote the Arabic translation?

We are discussing the recent Hamas proposal for a 10 year cease fire.

.

[dre]

John the one problem in the dialogue with Dre is he thinks he is psychic and knows what Hamas thinks. Once you get into that train of thought it gets bizarre.

In fact to understand Hamas and their passion to rid Israel off the map one only need read their daily missives on its web site.

They most certainly believe they will take back Israel. This is in their mind a religious battle and they believe they are guided by God and will prevail.

This collective religious psychosis is manifested in the war tactics it uses, the words it uses, its chants, its songs, its daily demonstrations and media messages and in its actions of killing its own people and cheering on those deaths and the dead as martyrs.

Dre lives in a world where he thinks everyone thinks like him and can't possibly reflect a thought pattern differently then his own.

I argue because of that I find his opinions narcissistic.

More mindless ad-hominem. You show a complete ignorance of guerilla warfare and how guerillas fight, and youre gullible enough to believe Hamas's own propoganda. They know as well as anyone else that the chances of them militarily defeating a regional hegemon with rockets made from sewer pipes is utterly ridiculous. Guerillas aim to provoke their vastly superior opponent into spending huge ammounts of money to counter very cheap attacks, and by tricking the superior military power into killing a lot of civilians and making a big mess which generates political support for the guerilla movement.

Its very similar to Alqeadas strategy against the US... They never though they could actually win militarily but they thought they MIGHT be able to trick the US into beating itself.

In any case, this current round of fighting wasnt really anyones "plan". This started with some dead teenagers, and nobody really knows if Hamas was behind those murders or not. Rocket attacks started after Israels response to the dead teenagers which was to arrest hundreds of people including dozens of hamas members.

[Rue]

Yah let's make a truce with someone who broke 4 truces and better still enter a truce with someone who says the truce is only a lull before the war will recommenced and Hamas will stay in a declared state of war with Israel during that 10 year truce and reserve to unilateraly end that truce at a moment's notice.

Got it Jacee in your fantasy world Hamas is to be trusted and one enters into a truce with someone who would use the truce as a chance to rearm to start the war again.

Makes perfect sense in your selective worldwhere Hamas is not a terrorist group just boy scouts who act reasonably and rationally.

In your world one sits and has tea with terrorists and as Dre said you make the same mistake with them over and over again as they break truces because as Dre says they are just baiting Israel that's all. This is just a game you know.

Alice in Wonderland. Let's all have a tea party with the Mad Hatter. tee hee. tea hee.

[dre]

Hamas has plans - we all know that, however differing they may be, but what is the plan? They know that they can't win the military war, they know Israel won't willing cave in to their demands, so...?

The thing is we dont know if this is something Hamas planned or not.

[Rue]

Well thank God counter terrorism expert Dre is there to explain what Hamas really thinks. You know they are harmless. Really. Harmless. Anyone who thinks otherwise is gullible,

Now see Dre knows Hamas is harmless but uh er uh wait he is not sure if they planned something or not.

See how that works. When its convenient Dre knows what Hamas thinks. When its not, he does not know what they think.

Got it.

Good lord can you get any more illogical and trite with your lectures on Hamas?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

Got it Jacee in your fantasy world Hamas is to be trusted and one enters into a truce with someone who would use the truce as a chance to rearm to start the war again.

Well they can do that whether theres a ceasefire or not. At some point soon here, rocket fire will stop, and Israel will withdraw. After that both sides will start preparing for the next flash point... whether or not theres a ceasefire agreement.