Should Obama Get Involved In Iraq?

[-1=e^ipi]

No, "ISIS" is not a monolithic group, and it certainly lacks dedicated, aligned sponsorship from nation states as most would define it. "ISIS" is a conglomeration of disparate (mostly Sunni) groups and interests that have come out on the short end of the stick in Syria and Iraq.

I never claimed it to be a monolithic group.

Western governments have indirectly supported it by supporting terrorists in Syria.

Many people in Saudi Arabia support it through the system of zakat.

[bush_cheney2004]

I never claimed it to be a monolithic group.

Western governments have indirectly supported it by supporting terrorists in Syria.

Many people in Saudi Arabia support it through the system of zakat.

OK. There is "support"...and then there is "SUPPORT". Some Americans and Canadians materially supported the IRA during The Troubles as well, but that does not translate into substantial state sponsorship. The U.S. paid off numerous tribal and other affiliated interests to stand up Sunni proxies in Iraq, but for an altogether different purpose and context...now moot. Competing U.S. interests for Syria and Iraq are easily conflated.

[eyeball]

What translates as sponsorship is the state's ambivalence. If it's seen one network of terror/dictatorship it's seen them all and should take the appropriate action. Deliberate inaction by a state and especially a purportedly advanced civilized democracy constitutes a breach of moral authority that should be considered a crime of omission against humanity.

[August1991]

He inhereted the "agenda from hell" from Bush and he can't seem to catch a break.

The Islamists who destroyed the WTC could care less about America's black/white, liberal/conservative divides.

It's not about Obama, or Bush, or even George Clooney.

(Americans - like men, according to Shirley Valentine - have a remarkable talent to turn every question to something about them.)

OnGuardForThee, it's about something else.

Edited June 20, 2014 by August1991

[Bonam]

Its not just that they have the wrong president, its that two different nations have been mashed into one. Its very hard to keep a country together when multiple large cultural groups are present.

It's interesting that this is taken as a given when discussing the middle east... and yet when someone discusses the potential downsides of importing millions of Muslims to the Western world (both Shia and Sunni), it suddenly becomes racist to say such a thing.

[dre]

It's interesting that this is taken as a given when discussing the middle east... and yet when someone discusses the potential downsides of importing millions of Muslims to the Western world (both Shia and Sunni), it suddenly becomes racist to say such a thing.

Well importing a tiny percentage of your population is a little different than having large distinct language/cultural groups within a nation. Having said that I agree that theres a tendency for people in forums such as this to be a little too promiscuous with allegations of racism.

[Bonam]

Well importing a tiny percentage of your population is a little different than having large distinct language/cultural groups within a nation. Having said that I agree that theres a tendency for people in forums such as this to be a little too promiscuous with allegations of racism.

When does a tiny percentage become a significant minority and enough to cause potential strife? 2%? 5%? 10%? Furthermore, 2% of population on a national scale may well mean 50% of the population in a particular city, as certain areas tend to draw far more immigrants than others. Anyway, I'll desist on this topic since it's a bit tangential to this thread, but hopefully the point has been made. The last thing we want is these same sectarian conflicts erupting here.

[monty16]

A good point. I have posted a lot of stuff regarding the rebels and them operating out of Turkey with full NATO support in training, equipment and base of operations in Turkey.

The west is doing nothing more than creating a division and strife between the factions of Islam. As long as they are fighting each other, they are not concerned about the west. Once they understand they've all been duped, you will see a reunification and some reconciliation among the factions in Islam.

If that happens, then you will have Sunni's AND Shiites pointing their guns our way.

Over a century of constant meddling from foreign powers has not helped the situation. It's the main reason we are seeing this all today. Sure Islam has had its problems long before ( who hasn't really) but as some are taking the mentality of 'no intervention', then that should have been the approach over a century ago.

Some other entity is behind ISIS. But I really have no clue.

And this came back to bite the USA hard in the ass. All that military hardware that was left behind under the reason of being too expensive to ship back home, are now being used by ISIS and their partners. Real smart. Because the other side is the gun control issue in the US while arming and training the rebels abroad.

If you have no clue what entity is behind ISIS then read the primer I supplied from RT news that explains it all.

And for others, let's move on to more important details. for instance:

http://rt.com/op-edge/167304-iraq-usa-isis-sectarianism/

Is this American right that the US is getting exactly what it wanted in Iraq now that ISIS is slaughtering people at a rate that is at least beginning to approach the rate at which the US did it? Not to suggest that they will ever have the WMD's to reach the US rate of slaughter?

[monty16]

No, "ISIS" is not a monolithic group, and it certainly lacks dedicated, aligned sponsorship from nation states as most would define it. "ISIS" is a conglomeration of disparate (mostly Sunni) groups and interests that have come out on the short end of the stick in Syria and Iraq.

Wlth billions of dollars in the bank from Saudi supporters. Geez kid, you can't get it more wrong than that!

[On Guard for Thee]

Wlth billions of dollars in the bank from Saudi supporters. Geez kid, you can't get it more wrong than that!

Billions eh? And you found that out how?

[Topaz]

I found an article, placed it under '"rest of the world section" under "Iraq and al queda problems," But the main point of the article was that the US/NATO purpose of changing the map of the Middle-East and the southern oil sectors becoming US. and the connections of the so-called terrorist to the US and there was never a plan for there to be peace in the areas until the US and NATO succeed what they have plan. I"M not saying any of this is true but it could make on wonder.

[eyeball]

It should make one roll their eyes. The US and NATO are as lost and rudderless as anyone - like the Sorcerer's Apprentice from Fantasia, caught up in a whirlwind of forces they can barely comprehend never mind control.

Edited June 21, 2014 by eyeball

[Big Guy]

Obama will send in "advisors" and the Sunni surge will probably stop outside of Baghdad. Kurds will rule their area, the Sunni's theirs and the Shia theirs. Many years ago, the Western conquerors put lines on the map to indicate which colony belonged to who. Why should we be surprised when their allegiance is to their family, tribe, sect, religion - in that order.

A famous Bedouin saying is " "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers".

If you superimpose a map of religious and tribal ties over a map that we in the West have drawn then you can see why these artificial lines on the map are creating the tensions that are causing the violence.

[monty16]

Billions eh? And you found that out how?

I found it out by showing an interest in the facts. One of the sources for that information has come from RT news which doesn't have any political interest in making up anti-US propaganda over this particular fact. However, if that doesn't sit well with you then I invite you to challenge it. Too bad you didn't take the time to read some of the information I supply to you people. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink!

Take part in this discussion in an informed manner. Doing otherwise is not helping. I'll try to find the link from about a week ago. Then it's up to you to read it and rebut or agree.

[monty16]

I think this is the link I supplied that tells us about Saudi support in the billions. In any case, it's one that I had posted with the hope of some of the people who are interested would take the time to read. It may not be the right one because I've posted several but it's sure not going to hurt anybody to read it and find out.

http://rt.com/news/166836-isis-isil-al-qaeda-iraq/

Americans: Reading this could cause you to go blind. Or at least grow hair on the palms of your hands!

[monty16]

Obama will send in "advisors" and the Sunni surge will probably stop outside of Baghdad. Kurds will rule their area, the Sunni's theirs and the Shia theirs. Many years ago, the Western conquerors put lines on the map to indicate which colony belonged to who. Why should we be surprised when their allegiance is to their family, tribe, sect, religion - in that order.

A famous Bedouin saying is " "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers".

If you superimpose a map of religious and tribal ties over a map that we in the West have drawn then you can see why these artificial lines on the map are creating the tensions that are causing the violence.

You need to stop the demonizing of the people of Iraq and understand that you are doing it in blind cooperation with the US's agenda.

The real facts are that Saddam had succeeded in having all sects and religions within the sects to live mostly peacefully alongside each other in a prospering Iraq. Even Christians were given the right to practice their religious beliefs in Saddam's Iraq. Women worked alongside of mean as their equals too!

Unfortunately, most of what went on in Iraq after the end of the Iraq/Iran war and before US aggression, has been lost to the internet. A good source of information is old encyclopedia's where the truth can't be altered by the US. And again unfortunately, being propagandized leads most people to not even want to know the truth.

[On Guard for Thee]

I think this is the link I supplied that tells us about Saudi support in the billions. In any case, it's one that I had posted with the hope of some of the people who are interested would take the time to read. It may not be the right one because I've posted several but it's sure not going to hurt anybody to read it and find out.

http://rt.com/news/166836-isis-isil-al-qaeda-iraq/

Americans: Reading this could cause you to go blind. Or at least grow hair on the palms of your hands!

So let's see, you are pretty quick to condemn the US for "slanting" the news and then in it's place you quote a news source that was originally started by Vladimir Putin's former press secretary. Right!

[monty16]

So let's see, you are pretty quick to condemn the US for "slanting" the news and then in it's place you quote a news source that was originally started by Vladimir Putin's former press secretary. Right!

This isn't about me. Why not try to read the information supplied by the link and then either agree with it or rebut it? Can't you even do that now? Why do you even think you deserve to be allowed to disrupt a topic that is at least trying to find answers to some of the questions? Are you a teenager or are you an adult? In my opinion you are a disgrace to Canada and the national anthem you pretend to hide behind. And more to the point:

You go and shoot off your cakehole over my comments about Saudi supplying ISIS, then you can't even find something to say about it being correct information or not. I think you're just a 'troll' or in words everybody can understand, a totally useless, uneducated, mouthpiece for US propaganda.

[On Guard for Thee]

This isn't about me. Why not try to read the information supplied by the link and then either agree with it or rebut it? Can't you even do that now? Why do you even think you deserve to be allowed to disrupt a topic that is at least trying to find answers to some of the questions? Are you a teenager or are you an adult? In my opinion you are a disgrace to Canada and the national anthem you pretend to hide behind. And more to the point:

You go and shoot off your cakehole over my comments about Saudi supplying ISIS, then you can't even find something to say about it being correct information or not. I think you're just a 'troll' or in words everybody can understand, a totally useless, uneducated, mouthpiece for US propaganda.

Well mr. "educated" I read your article and it doesn't really support any of your claims. Phrases such as "not known, but easily guessed" shouldn't be overly swaying to truly educated people.

[cybercoma]

It's amazing how much terrorism comes out of Syria. The 9/11 hijackers were Syrian, ISIS is Syrian, Hezbollah and Hamas are funded by Syria.

Amazing how the United States, who apparently is so concerned about terrorism, hasn't bothered going after Syria yet.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Amazing how the United States, who apparently is so concerned about terrorism, hasn't bothered going after Syria yet.

Doesn't sending Maher Arar back to Syria count ?

[On Guard for Thee]

It's amazing how much terrorism comes out of Syria. The 9/11 hijackers were Syrian, ISIS is Syrian, Hezbollah and Hamas are funded by Syria.

Amazing how the United States, who apparently is so concerned about terrorism, hasn't bothered going after Syria yet.

I don't think the 9 11 boys were Syrian. Mostly Saudi (15 of the 19) it is reported, and we all know the US ain't gonna touch Saudi, at least not while they still need to import oil.

[monty16]

I don't think the 9 11 boys were Syrian. Mostly Saudi (15 of the 19) it is reported, and we all know the US ain't gonna touch Saudi, at least not while they still need to import oil.

That's ridiculous. The reason why the US hasn't attacked the Saudis is because the 911 freedom fighters weren't working on behalf of their country. They were actually working against their evil monarchy that was being propped up by the US. Again, a point that both of us are fully aware of. Why would you try to turn it into something else?

However, if you don't understand that the Saudi monarchy are the good guys then we'll start at the beginning. Be attentive, there will be a test!

Dawwwwwgggg, you'd think that Saudi still celebrates Osama's birthday!

[On Guard for Thee]

 

That's ridiculous. The reason why the US hasn't attacked the Saudis is because the 911 freedom fighters weren't working on behalf of their country. They were actually working against their evil monarchy that was being propped up by the US. Again, a point that both of us are fully aware of. Why would you try to turn it into something else?

However, if you don't understand that the Saudi monarchy are the good guys then we'll start at the beginning. Be attentive, there will be a test!

Dawwwwwgggg, you'd think that Saudi still celebrates Osama's birthday!

And you believe you know what those Saudi hijackers where thinking how again? The only thing I see ridiculous here are your comments.

 

[Big Guy]

I have a post that I feel is appropriate in this and another thread. I shall repeat it here;

More and more it appears that Iraq will end up partitioned based on religion. The Kurds hold the far North, the Sunni are in control of the North West and the Shia hold and will defend the South and Southeast.

It is ironic that in 2006, then Senator from Delaware, Joe Biden, declared a possible, solution to the (impending at the time) escalating violence in Iraq;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/23/AR2006082301419.html

Looks like the end solution, if it is political, will result in what Biden proposed.

Who wooda thought!?!