Five Taliban For One American Soldier

[monty16]

You make alot of asumptions, things like he developed a conscience, you talk like the other soldiers did not have a conscience were mere robots / programed killers....We all have our demons that keep us awake at night, mine have nothing to do with pulling the triger on any of those bottom feeders.......instead it's seeing the crimes they commited on their very own people .....I'm not sure how you developed the opinion you have today but i can tell you first hand we did make a difference for the better in Afghan.......The facts are there you just got to look for them...

Did i ever develope a conscience for the Taliban or the terrorist that they employed....never...because i seen first hand the crimes they commited , things like cutting a 6 year old hands of for going to school, after they exicuted her father and raped her mother in front of her....skinning alive an old man, then staking him to the ground to be cooked alive in plus 45 sun....throwing acid in the faces of young women....having a 10 year boy cut the head of a captive with a dull machette while they vidioed it for the world to see....

Nice guys everyone of them, according to you inocent of any crimes....There was no facade of moral high ground....we did have the high ground we owned the high ground. We went there to destroy the terrorist groups from be able to operate inter nationally, and in the process disposed of a brutal regime, the few that terrorised the many.... i have no regrets nor do any of the troops i served with...

And would gladly do it all over again....

You pretty well have it right when you say that I think the other soldiers are robots without a conscience. I can get into that in more detail if you would like to look into it deeper. And as for making a difference there in Afghanistan, do you have any idea on how many lives were lost to the US and/or Canadian forces? If you do you can compare that to the estimate of how many lives would have been lost to the Taliban. That would be the same Taliban that the US is trying to make a deal with before they leave/pretend to leave the country.

I find it a bit humourous to hear your feigned compassion for the people of Afghanistan when you refer to them as bottom feeders. That would be, the same Taliban again that the people choose over other factions. Go figure? Maybe your values aren't in tune with the values of the people? Maybe it's just a case of you thinking we need to impress our Western values on the people?

So now that you have had time to consider how many people died to US bombing and other means they employed to kill people, do you think it's better to have acid in the face, hands cut off, a father executed and a mother raped or 100 times that number dead?

No my friend, it wasn't a war to save the little girls so they could go to school, and neither was Iraq. By now you should know exactly why the US enlisted the support of Canada. I'll leave you to think about that when you dare to. Then let me know if you reach any conclusions.

p.s. I'm no fan of religions, no religions, but I understand that it's impossible to lead a people out of their archaic, brutal, and destructive beliefs by bombing them. It's no more successful than any efforts to prevent Christians from killing for their cause. When the women put their burquas back on after you told them they didn't have to, the military should have got the message. I think the smarter ones did but it wasn't the message they wanted to hear.

[monty16]

In fairness to you, I feel that I need to explain further even if I'm not asked to. When I suggest their were no consciences present I am saying that justifications for what the military was doing were firmly installed into the minds of the military people taking part. In other words, they were propagandized to accept the message that suited the US military's cause. And so, I have no doubt that many will be able to walk away from it believing in what they accomplished. Many will never stop to think back and question any of it. I'm just saying that I suspect that this one individual did. In retrospect, if a soldier walked away from it in Iraq because he saw through the propagandizing he received that enabled him to kill Iraqis, he would have definitely been on the side of right. Is there any difference? Is any soldier truly on the side of right if he kills in any ME country?

[roy baty]

Don't worry, the US priority will be to make sure that it's not seen as a person with a conscience not being able to continue to fight against people in their own country that are innocent of crimes. The US must always try to maintain the façade of the moral high ground.

In actual practice for the past 65-70 years, they haven't been on moral high ground. We know now that the Iraq war was a phony trumped up cause for oil and we know now that the Russians never were coming.

Hey Monty, maybe you and Bergdahl should become pen pals when he gets convicted of being a deserter and a coward. Sounds like you two would have been good buddies and probably deserted with him if you were there.

Edited June 6, 2014 by roy baty

[Big Guy]

...

Did i ever develope a conscience for the Taliban or the terrorist that they employed....never...because i seen first hand the crimes they commited , ...

I would assume that someone with a conscience and who is prepared to kill somebody would feel that there is a very good reason for the action.

I am no apologist for the Taliban or anybody else. I also believe that these individuals do what they think is the best for their fellow citizens - be it their souls or their lives. How they try to achieve their goals is foreign and outrageous to us. But it is their country.

The Taliban are radical, nationalist Pashtun tribesmen. Pashtuns number about 50 million - 20 million more than Canada. One third are in what we call Afghanistan and two thirds in what we call Pakistan. They have a far greater claim to the territory that we call Afghanistan than any "liberators" from the West. The majority of these folks are still in the feudal system, don't know Afghanistan or Pakistan from Disneyland and feel that our "liberators" are really "invaders". Their behaviour is not unlike the barbarian period in Europe. That is who they are.

There are outrageous things going on all over the world, all the time. The only reason why the West decided on this particular area was that the government at the time, the Talban, refused (or were unable) to deliver the Al Queda responsible for 9/11 to the USA. They agreed to deliver them to another ME nation but the USA attacked before negotiations could continue.

We could argue as to who did what to who and how successful they were until we are blue in the face. It still won't make a difference. It would be interesting to how this whole fiasco will be judged in 30 years.

I have no doubt that anything I could say or try to point out could change your opinion. You claim to have been there. I was not. I respect your point of view.

The sad part is that it looks like after this latest expedition (some would call it the 8th Crusade) , that country is going to be no better off, or governed any differently, than it was before all those $billions were spent and thousands killed.

But that is war.

I am still disappointed that no one from the Canadian PM's office has commented on any aspect of this exchange.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Big Guy

[monty16]

I would assume that someone with a conscience and who is prepared to kill somebody would feel that there is a very good reason for the action.

I am no apologist for the Taliban or anybody else. I also believe that these individuals do what they think is the best for their fellow citizens - be it their souls or their lives. How they try to achieve their goals is foreign and outrageous to us. But it is their country.

The Taliban are radical, nationalist Pashtun tribesmen. Pashtuns number about 50 million - 20 million more than Canada. One third are in what we call Afghanistan and two thirds in what we call Pakistan. They have a far greater claim to the territory that we call Afghanistan than any "liberators" from the West. The majority of these folks are still in the feudal system, don't know Afghanistan or Pakistan from Disneyland and feel that our "liberators" are really "invaders". Their behaviour is not unlike the barbarian period in Europe. That is who they are.

There are outrageous things going on all over the world, all the time. The only reason why the West decided on this particular area was that the government at the time, the Talban, refused (or were unable) to deliver the Al Queda responsible for 9/11 to the USA. They agreed to deliver them to another ME nation but the USA attacked before negotiations could continue.

We could argue as to who did what to who and how successful they were until we are blue in the face. It still won't make a difference. It would be interesting to how this whole fiasco will be judged in 30 years.

I have no doubt that anything I could say or try to point out could change your opinion. You claim to have been there. I was not. I respect your point of view.

The sad part is that it looks like after this latest expedition (some would call it the 8th Crusade) , that country is going to be no better off, or governed any differently, than it was before all those $billions were spent and thousands killed.

But that is war.

I am still disappointed that no one from the Canadian PM's office has commented on any aspect of this exchange.

Very well said! But your last sentence? Don't be disappointed, it's very hard to go against the grain of the propagands that is meant to demonize the Taliban. It's a fight that little people like us can't win even though we try to appeal to their higher values. Be content knowing that it will reach some of them and the ones it reaches and impresses will show you that they have been impressed by their vitriol and the ugliness of their replies.

[GostHacked]

So I don't understand this.

We have Omar Kadhr held at GITMO for years because of a suspected attack. He is now in Canada in a max security prison.

Now we have an American soldier who defected when he claimed Jihad during his time being held prisoner by the Taliban.

The US was seeking maximum penalties for Kadhr, and yet went out of their way for this defector. Not only that, traded 5 top terrorists for his release.

Who is this guy really?

What was his mission?

I'd say he was more special operations or from an intelligence group to get the digs on the Taliban's operations. A plant, a mole if you will. Or he could have gone in to do some negotiations with them.

Many questions and the timing of Obama's visit to Afghanistan while 'mistakenly' outing another CIA operative. Unless that CIA operative was this supposed captured defected soldier. The USA's actions on all of this just is not making much sense.

[Signals.Cpl]

They are likely leaving this year, they don't want to leave their one and only Afghan War POW in Taliban hands. The idea of not leaving a man behind is there regardless of your actions. The Khadr terrorist clan on the other hand is not owed anything by the US or Canada.

[overthere]

The Taliban are radical, nationalist Pashtun tribesmen. Pashtuns number about 50 million - 20 million more than Canada. One third are in what we call Afghanistan and two thirds in what we call Pakistan. They have a far greater claim to the territory that we call Afghanistan than any "liberators" from the West. The majority of these folks are still in the feudal system, don't know Afghanistan or Pakistan from Disneyland and feel that our "liberators" are really "invaders". Their behaviour is not unlike the barbarian period in Europe. That is who they are.

That is not accurate. 'These folks' are not in a fuedal system, they are in the tribal system they have been in for centuries. The difference is vast. In recent years, the Taliban have been influenced by radical Islamists, including Al Qaeda and the wahhabi fundamentalists funded out of Saudi Arabia. That influence is waning, but the tribal instincts never wane.

They don't claim Afghanistan or pakistan or any other country. They don't really recognize those artificial borders, and never have. Again, tribal not nationalist.

I don't understand your 'barbarian' comparison, other than it sounds sneering and condescending to these people. People, not animals. The Pashtuns have largely moved away from much sympathy for AQ or the Taliban, since those groups have brought nothing but troible for a long time. Not all Pashtuns are Al Qaeda, not all Pashtuns are Taliban, not many Pashtuns are interested in jihad or radical Islam. The great majority are like you and I and want to be left in peace.

[On Guard for Thee]

That is not accurate. 'These folks' are not in a fuedal system, they are in the tribal system they have been in for centuries. The difference is vast. In recent years, the Taliban have been influenced by radical Islamists, including Al Qaeda and the wahhabi fundamentalists funded out of Saudi Arabia. That influence is waning, but the tribal instincts never wane.

They don't claim Afghanistan or pakistan or any other country. They don't really recognize those artificial borders, and never have. Again, tribal not nationalist.

I don't understand your 'barbarian' comparison, other than it sounds sneering and condescending to these people. People, not animals. The Pashtuns have largely moved away from much sympathy for AQ or the Taliban, since those groups have brought nothing but troible for a long time. Not all Pashtuns are Al Qaeda, not all Pashtuns are Taliban, not many Pashtuns are interested in jihad or radical Islam. The great majority are like you and I and want to be left in peace.

I would agree with much of what you've said here. My experience there indicated they don't want to be told what to do from a central government in Kabul, or even the next province. But they do want to for the most part grow their crops, raise their kids, and generally go about their business in peace.

[overthere]

One thing that has changed and continues to change is the relationship of the Pashtuns to both AQ and the Taliban.

AQ is mainly foreigners with a lot of money behind them. Very few are Pashtuns, most are Arabs from other places and there is no natural bond between the two. Lots of Taliban are Pashtuns but the two groups are very different in size by a large factor.

I think the pashtuns have been sympatheitc and cooperative to both AQ and Taliban, but that is changing. The whole areas has been in an uproar for decades and the Pashtun- as you point out- want to be left in peace not only by the Pakistan govt, the Anericans etc, but by these other groups that have brought a lot of grief down on the Pashtuns heads. AQ and the Taliban simply cannot operate without plenty of help from the Pashtuns. It si a factor that has yet to be played out.

[Army Guy]

You pretty well have it right when you say that I think the other soldiers are robots without a conscience. I can get into that in more detail if you would like to look into it deeper. And as for making a difference there in Afghanistan, do you have any idea on how many lives were lost to the US and/or Canadian forces? If you do you can compare that to the estimate of how many lives would have been lost to the Taliban. That would be the same Taliban that the US is trying to make a deal with before they leave/pretend to leave the country.

I'm sure that your opinion is one based on fact and not pulled from that 1/4 in speaker attached to your ass, or you've talking to soldiers from across the country and found them all mindless robots without a conscience....The same men and women who are in charge of defending this great nation that you and i call home....You probably pray to the war gods every night that Canada does not have to employ such monsters in your name.....Sorry to late....

These mindless robots as you call them are the men and women that protected thousands of Afghanis citizens 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, in an area much larger than PEI, and did it with maybe 1200 fighting troops on the ground.....from the taliban and terrorist you've come to love and respect....these are the same men and women who have risked their very own lives to rescue them during fire fights, assisting in building a dam to provide electricity to homes that had none....digging wells to give villiages clean drinking water where none existed before, building hyways for commerence, securing towns so they could go to the market and trade their goods....

mindless robots one and all....perhaps you should vist the honor and award section of the govern generals web site....read some of those awards and tell me they were mindless robots.....men and women gave thier lives and asked for nothing in return....for what there is no oil, there is no oil pipe line....there is no pay off for the victor.....it was those mindless robots with no conscience that did all that....and asked for nothing in return....many of them doing it over and over again....mindless robots or Proud Canadian citizens...

Oh you say you can get deeper into it with me Start up a new thread and i'd be happy to debate this topic with you....keep in mind you'll have to go slow because i'm one of those mindless robots with no conscience.....

As for the losses i know i was there, i seen the dead carried away, families grieving in the open streets....after they picked the parts of their family members off the walls of the market after a taliban car bomb went off.....or they forced a small child of 5 to drive his bike towards a NATO traffic control piont his little body straped with explosives...... i seen comrads make they way onto the back ramp of a herc for the long journey home......i was also one of those soldiers to fire his wpn in anger, i also controled small groups of men to destroy our nations and the Afghan nations enemies.....and like i said i regret very little, does 'nt mean i have no conscience....you see i have a son, the same age as that little boy who was shoot by NATO troops as he approached our Veh check piont with his sucide vest.....forced to ride his little bike towards us by those scumbags you think we owe so much to...the Taliban blew him up with a cell phone....I watch his father picking up his sandals and parts of his little legs, wailing for his loss ...I'm haunted by that day every time i close my eyes........i wish i had no conscience....me along with the thousands of other soldiers who have the same dreams night after night.....it would have made our tours so much easier.... ....

But what you forget to mention was how many are still alive today because of our contributions to Afghan....you also fail to tell the readers how well the country is doing today, compared to the last year the taliban where in charge....how the quality of life has climbed tremendously because of NATO intervention....forget all that shit...as it does not support your quest in life bash the US, the CDN Government, military or police....for you all that is left is one big conspircy theory...Like i said your entitled to your opinion, as am i.... as i have to much invested in this topic, as do 40,000 other Canadain soldiers who served in Afghanistan....

As for dealing with the Taliban that is the Government of Afghan to decide who they are going to deal with....do i like it no, but again my opinion means little in the grand vision of things....

I find it a bit humourous to hear your feigned compassion for the people of Afghanistan when you refer to them as bottom feeders. That would be, the same Taliban again that the people choose over other factions. Go figure? Maybe your values aren't in tune with the values of the people? Maybe it's just a case of you thinking we need to impress our Western values on the people?

You knew exactly who i was reffering to, the taliban and they're terrorist comrads.....That would be the same taliban that has killed more civilian Afghanis than NATO could ever dream off....as for them being the number one faction of chioce , again a fact pulled out of a 1/4 in speaker...i guess that would depend on who you talked to....go figure....

And you would know that how ? have you been there ?, how many Afghanis have you talked to ?....something you got off the inter net....

I never impress any of our values on them sure i talked in length to Afghan soldiers and civilians about our values, but never did i say ours were best or you should do this for this reason....I mission was to give them opitions, and if one of those options was to return back to Taliban rule then so be it, it is their chioce.....but i doubt that will ever happen....(my opinion)

[Big Guy]

I do not think anyone discounts the atrocities that are done during a war. There are many who believe there was no need for a war.

I do wonder what state Afghanistan would be in now if the USA and others had decided not to invade Afghanistan but to allow the Taliban to hand over (or try to hand over) Bin Laden and his boys to a neutral nation?

How many Afghanistan people would have been killed and wounded? ( I believe it is currently in the half million range).

How many casualties would NATO have sustained?

How many casualties would Canada have sustained?

How much money would still be in Canadian coffers to spend on Canadian problems?

I know hindsight is 20/20 but with every revelation, this expedition into Afghanistan is proving to be a major and very expensive mistake.

[Army Guy]

So now that you have had time to consider how many people died to US bombing and other means they employed to kill people, do you think it's better to have acid in the face, hands cut off, a father executed and a mother raped or 100 times that number dead?

More Afghanis citizens were killed in taliban operations that any other force on the ground....something you have failed to mention.......Taliban intentionally targeted Afghan citizens to instill fear........and while there was many Afghanis killed by NATO forces it was not done intentionally ...tragic mistakes happen in combat there is no such thing in war when only the bad guys die....

No my friend, it wasn't a war to save the little girls so they could go to school, and neither was Iraq. By now you should know exactly why the US enlisted the support of Canada. I'll leave you to think about that when you dare to. Then let me know if you reach any conclusions.

I've had years to think everything i did or saw, in Afghan and like i said, i have little to regrett....You see i volunteered to go over not once but three times, all three times it was in a combat role....why to make a difference to stand up for an enslaved people, being terrorized by foreigners to me that was a fight worth hav

ing, i mean here we sat in Canada with so much, that we take for granted the most common things like freedom, plenty of food, shelter, clothing, etc etc....and yet you find fault because Canada wanted to offer some of that to Afghan....No sir, i very confident in my decissions....i don't have to dare to think about them...

In fairness to you, I feel that I need to explain further even if I'm not asked to. When I suggest their were no consciences present I am saying that justifications for what the military was doing were firmly installed into the minds of the military people taking part. In other words, they were propagandized to accept the message that suited the US military's cause. And so, I have no doubt that many will be able to walk away from it believing in what they accomplished. Many will never stop to think back and question any of it. I'm just saying that I suspect that this one individual did. In retrospect, if a soldier walked away from it in Iraq because he saw through the propagandizing he received that enabled him to kill Iraqis, he would have definitely been on the side of right. Is there any difference? Is any soldier truly on the side of right if he kills in any ME country?

Lets be trurthfull here you feel the need to dumb it down, fine, i get it ....robot....what was i thinking I want to be clear, Canada did not operate under direct US military command it took it's orders from our National government, they pulled the strings, and for the most part we were singing off the same page as the US...but it was blessed by Canadians....you need to wrap your mind around that for a second.....

You can go on and on about being propagandized all you want the minute a soldier gets off the plane in Afghan he starts to make up his own mind....he sees what he sees and forms his own opinion....what we saw was the deep darkest secrets of the taliban....we seen what they were capable off doing to children, old men, babies, women.....when you have a conversation with a 10 year girl who has had her hands cut off for going to school it hardened ones opinion....to the piont where you had to have lots of self control not to kill all of them terrorist dick heads.....to me there is nothing as evil as these bastards....once you looked into a childs eyes and felt her pain.....and if you had a conscience you to would think the same...but then again you have not had that experience , i'm not sure where you retrieved your opinion from...

One soldier shit lets make it a hundard, out of the tens of thousands that served....that has got to be accounted for.....the numbers speak for itself...

[bush_cheney2004]

....I've had years to think everything i did or saw, in Afghan and like i said, i have little to regrett....You see i volunteered to go over not once but three times, all three times it was in a combat role..

Thank you for your service Army Guy....three times.

[Army Guy]

I would assume that someone with a conscience and who is prepared to kill somebody would feel that there is a very good reason for the action.

I am no apologist for the Taliban or anybody else. I also believe that these individuals do what they think is the best for their fellow citizens - be it their souls or their lives. How they try to achieve their goals is foreign and outrageous to us. But it is their country.

You have to understand the Taliban or the many groups of terrorist that worked out of Afghan.....many of the leadership was not even from Afghanistan....they had taken advantage of the situation and forced the millions of Afghanis citizens to bend to there ways by terror....They had the power to what was best for their people and abused it millions of times over....those that disagreed got a trip to the soccer stadium, and a bullet to the back of the skull.....thousands went along with it because they did not want to make that trip....

The northern allianence were also Afghanis, they did not want any part of this new taliban regime, as they were brutal....and yet nobody has said anything about them.....they're opinion counts for jack shit....

Yes alot of the taliban were from Afghanistan, and it was thery're country, but at what piont does the rest of the world keep looking the other way while the elephant in the room takes a dump at your feet.....do we wait until the death toll hits a thousand, 10,000, 100,000 or a million....what number would get you to take action.....or is it none of our bussiness....yet here in the west we claim to have civilized ourselfs we claim we have human rights, rights for women, children, not only for our selfs but they should be available to every one on the planet or is all that talk ...when it is time to take action we now claim the price is to high fu*** that....

I am still disappointed that no one from the Canadian PM's office has commented on any aspect of this exchange.

I think the exchange was a good one, but i look upon it from a soldiers piont of view....every one goes home, alive or in a bag but everyone goes home, regardless of their actions....those can be judged later...this soldier was worth a thousand taliban he deserves to be home....The battle field changes even the strongest and can make men do strange things,but lets not forget, he volenteered to serve his country, that fact alone should be worth every effort to get him back....