Scotty Posted May 25, 2014 Report Posted May 25, 2014 I was surfing my TV universe earlier and paused on SunTv. Ezra Levant was on complaining about how some provinces, notably Quebec and New Brunswick, have such strong opposition to fracking. Quebec has actually put a moratorium on any exploration for fracking. Levant was complaining about how a lot of the money behind these protests are coming from outside Canada, but I had a different thought. Quebec apparently could engage in fracking, but refuses, on environmental reasons. However, it has no issue taking money from Alberta and Saskatchewan, through federal transfer payments, which comes as a result of fracking. I think that a province which could develop its resources and make itself more self sufficient, but refuses, should not be able to do so without financial penalties. I think that the scope of transfers to those provinces, like Quebec, should be recalculated, exempting whatever portion of that money derives from fracking, and the resulting amount they receive should be lowered commensurate with that new calculation. I think the same should be done with native bands which live entirely on federal transfers. Whatever portion of federal income comes as a result of fracking (royalties, taxes on the companies and employees, etc.) should be removed from the transfers for natives who vociferously oppose fracking. It is unfair for governments to act self righteous in their opposition to fracking and oil development, yet happily hold out their hands for their share of the money which comes from it. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Bryan Posted May 25, 2014 Report Posted May 25, 2014 Excellent point, should be applied across the board to all manner of transfers and benefits. Letters to this effect should be sent to every MP! Quote
Big Guy Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 ... It is unfair for governments to act self righteous in their opposition to fracking and oil development, yet happily hold out their hands for their share of the money which comes from it. I think the priority of the Premier of any province is to get the best deal that it can get for the people in that province. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Shady Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 (edited) I think the priority of the Premier of any province is to get the best deal that it can get for the people in that province. That does mean it's not loathsome and hypocritical, and also bad economic policy. Their real priority should be creating the best economy it can for the people of that province. Not securing better welfare. Edited May 26, 2014 by Shady Quote
cybercoma Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 I was surfing my TV universe earlier and paused on SunTv. Ezra Levant was on complaining about how some provinces, notably Quebec and New Brunswick, have such strong opposition to fracking.Ezra knows nothing about New Brunswick. The Alward government has no opposition to tracking whatsoever. The public does and he should know that what the public wants doesn't matter at all in this province. What the Irvings want, the Irvings get. And if they'll get a piece of the tracking pie, then it will happen. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 Ezra knows nothing about New Brunswick. The Alward government has no opposition to tracking whatsoever. The public does and he should know that what the public wants doesn't matter at all in this province. What the Irvings want, the Irvings get. And if they'll get a piece of the tracking pie, then it will happen. I wonder what he knows about fracking. Quote
eyeball Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 I think that a province which could develop its resources and make itself more self sufficient, but refuses, should not be able to do so without financial penalties. How about when a province or region is willing to do this but Ottawa says forget it? That's been the history of BC's Ottawa's salmon enhancement program for the last 30 years...too much like playing God they told us. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
overthere Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 It takes a special kind of brain to equate fracking with the contractual and constitutional obligations of the federal govt relations with First Nations. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Boges Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 It takes a special kind of brain to equate fracking with the contractual and constitutional obligations of the federal govt relations with First Nations. Well what would happen to equalization payments if Saskatchewan and Alberta stopped sending lots of money to the Feds like these anti oil and gas groups want? It's hypocrisy. We see it in Ontario with the Enbridge Line 9 reversal. The Pipeline isn't new. It's been used to send Middle East oil outside for years. But now that they want to send dirty Right Wing Alberta oil to the east. The protests have been very contentious. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/enbridge-line-9-pipeline-reversal-approved-by-energy-board-1.2562169 Quote
guyser Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 It takes a special kind of brain to equate fracking with the contractual and constitutional obligations of the federal govtyup Quote
Argus Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 It takes a special kind of brain to equate fracking with the contractual and constitutional obligations of the federal govt relations with First Nations. That would, benefits for natives, but no responsiblities, right? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
overthere Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 That would, benefits for natives, but no responsiblities, right? Maybe we should steal another couple of generations of their children, teach them some manners. right? Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 Maybe we should steal another couple of generations of their children, teach them some manners. right? Maybe if we'd continued that program natives might have become integrated into society and wouldn't have hugely higher rates of drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment, suicide, depression, teenage pregnancies and violence. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 That's a pretty grotesque suggestion given that very program is what largely created the hugely higher rates of drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment, suicide, depression, teenage pregnancies and violence in the first place. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
On Guard for Thee Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 One need only study the impact of residential schools. Quote
August1991 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) I think the priority of the Premier of any province is to get the best deal that it can get for the people in that province.Zero-sum thinking. Big Guy, are you from the Maritimes? Quebec apparently could engage in fracking, but refuses, on environmental reasons. However, it has no issue taking money from Alberta and Saskatchewan, through federal transfer payments, which comes as a result of fracking. I think that a province which could develop its resources and make itself more self sufficient, but refuses, should not be able to do so without financial penalties.Let me set aside the issue of fracking. Should Hydro-Quebec be subject to NEB hydro line regulations? What about the James Bay? Churchill Falls - what is the valuable resource (water or access to market)? Why did people in Quebec have to pay for nuclear energy? And, why do we have to pay to decommission Gentilly? Why did Harper subsidize Ontario's GM car manufacture? ===== The perception in English-Canada is that there are two teams: Team A is English-Canada and Team B is Quebec. Team B is winning by cheating. Scotty, if you view a country as a sports match, win-lose scenario, to pick a bad scenario that you've forced on me... Let me view a country as a family: it's a non-zero sum game. Happy families tend to be successful (positive sum) in their own way; unhappy families are zero-sum. (BTW, a country is neither a sports match nor a family.) Edited May 27, 2014 by August1991 Quote
Big Guy Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Zero-sum thinking. Big Guy, are you from the Maritimes? Why would anybody run for leadership of a province if their top priority in not for the best interests of the people he/she represents? Who would vote for someone who was not trying to get the beat deal for them? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Zero-sum thinking. I guess it takes a zero-sum thinker to know one. The perception in English-Canada is that there are two teams: Team A is English-Canada and Team B is Quebec. Team B is winning by cheating Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) That's a pretty grotesque suggestion given that very program is what largely created the hugely higher rates of drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, unemployment, suicide, depression, teenage pregnancies and violence in the first place. How do you know this? How do you know it wouldn't be the same anyway? The rates of poverty, alcoholism and drug abuse, which, of course, leads to violence and family breakdowns, are FAR higher on reservations in the United States than in the general population, and they never had the same program you're referring to. And that's despite the fact their reservations are generally much bigger and more heavily populated than Canadian reservations. Edited May 27, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
overthere Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 How do you know this? How do you know it wouldn't be the same anyway? The rates of poverty, alcoholism and drug abuse, which, of course, leads to violence and family breakdowns, are FAR higher on reservations in the United States than in the general population, and they never had the same program you're referring to. And that's despite the fact their reservations are generally much bigger and more heavily populated than Canadian reservations. The 100+ years of forcibly taking children from their parents to enjoy several years of state sanctioned starvation, humilation, sexual abuse, religious brainwashing and a jolly introduction to tuberculosis could not possibly have any effect on past or current generations. No way. It must be something genetic in those dirty Indians that makes them want to die. If only they would accept that our way in not just the best way, it's the only way. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Michael Hardner Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 The 100+ years of forcibly taking children from their parents to enjoy several years of state sanctioned starvation, humilation, sexual abuse, religious brainwashing and a jolly introduction to tuberculosis could not possibly have any effect on past or current generations. Sorry, OT, you may not be aware that we established on another thread that colonialism only impacted Africans. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
overthere Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Sorry, OT, you may not be aware that we established on another thread that colonialism only impacted Africans. It's true, I was unaware of the facts on colonialism. Back to school for me! But perhaps not a residential school. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 The 100+ years of forcibly taking children from their parents to enjoy several years of state sanctioned starvation, humilation, sexual abuse, religious brainwashing and a jolly introduction to tuberculosis could not possibly have any effect on past or current generations. No way. It must be something genetic in those dirty Indians that makes them want to die. If only they would accept that our way in not just the best way, it's the only way. Apparently, you have difficulties comprehending clearly written English. If you would be so kind as to get someone to read you the post to which you are responding and point out you completely ignored the point of that post, it might be helpful to any intelligent conversation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) Sorry, OT, you may not be aware that we established on another thread that colonialism only impacted Africans. Sulking doesn't look good on a good Christian. Edited May 27, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
overthere Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Apparently, you have difficulties comprehending clearly written English. If you would be so kind as to get someone to read you the post to which you are responding and point out you completely ignored the point of that post, it might be helpful to any intelligent conversation. It is always instructional to realize that some people think cause and effect have no connection whatsoever. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
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