Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Tony Dungy is thought to be the pinnacle of ethics and honour in football. . . until he said something bad about Michael Sam. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/tony-dungy-says-he-would-not-want-to--deal-with--michael-sam-distractions-161330049.html Despite this guy's pedigree, his comments are pretty indefensible. Moreso when you stop to consider his pedigree. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Despite this guy's pedigree, his comments are pretty indefensible. Moreso when you stop to consider his pedigree. He was being honest. Anyone running a team has a first priority and responsibility to win games and have a successful season. If he believed that taking Sam might create additional problems for the team then he had every right to that action. If there was another player who he thought could potentially cause some disruption for any reason then he would do the same. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) He was being honest. I don't feel the need to credit bigots for being open about their bigotry. Anyone running a team has a first priority and responsibility to win games and have a successful season. If he believed that taking Sam might create additional problems for the team then he had every right to that action. If there was another player who he thought could potentially cause some disruption for any reason then he would do the same. Dat so? But Dungy acted as a mentor to (convicted felon Michael) Vick, and his efforts were noble. He encouraged teams to sign Vick before the Eagles did, speaking on Vick's behalf both publicly and privately to his friends around the league who were kicking the tires on signing him after Vick's prison stint. But Sam apparently represents a level of distraction that would be too much for Dungy. ... Dungy seemed to "deal" with the distractions of Marvin Harrison being investigated for a homicide at the end of his time in Indianapolis. He dealt with Colts players Mike Doss, Darrell Reid, DeDe Dorsey, Dominic Rhodes and Dexter Reid who were arrested under Dungy's watch for various things that were illegal. Dungy himself came into pro football as a visible minority at a time when being a visible minority was a potential source of disruption. Dude's a straight-up (pun intended) bigot and hypocrite. Edited July 23, 2014 by Black Dog Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Sam came 7 picks from being undrafted. It's clear that Dungy wasn't the only one who thought drafting him might be a distraction. That and his Combine numbers were poop. I wonder if homophobia will thrown out there if he gets cut this August. Edited July 23, 2014 by Boges Quote
Shady Posted July 23, 2014 Author Report Posted July 23, 2014 He was being honest. You're not allowed to be honest anymore in soceity, or else the leftwing thought police will come after you. What he said was true. It will be a big distraction, especially in the locker room. It's may not be right, but it's true. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Sam came 7 picks from being undrafted. It's clear that Dungy was the only one who thought drafting him might be a distraction. That and his Combine numbers were poop. Maybe it wouldn't be a distraction if all the bigots didn't keep making it one? I wonder if homophobia will thrown out there if he gets cut this August. At this point can it be ruled out? Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Maybe it wouldn't be a distraction if all the bigots didn't keep making it one? There was going to be an OWN show about Sam, it got cancelled because it would be a distraction to Sam and the team. At this point can it be ruled out? I've seen the value of the combine numbers minimized as a result of Sam's bad results. He is ultimately a marginal player. Then again Jason Collins playing time wasn't an issue but he came out at the tail end of his career so it's no surprise. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 There was going to be an OWN show about Sam, it got cancelled because it would be a distraction to Sam and the team. I've seen the value of the combine numbers minimized as a result of Sam's bad results. He is ultimately a marginal player. Then again Jason Collins playing time wasn't an issue but he came out at the tail end of his career so it's no surprise. I don't follow football, but I expect it's entirely possible for guys to have good combine numbers and bad careers and vice versa. Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 I don't follow football, but I expect it's entirely possible for guys to have good combine numbers and bad careers and vice versa. Sure the draft is a crap shoot largely. But the combine is a great way to attempt to determine future success. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Sure the draft is a crap shoot largely. But the combine is a great way to attempt to determine future success. Is it actually? Again, I don't follow football, but is there a lot of evidence that shows a strong correlation between the two? Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Is it actually? Again, I don't follow football, but is there a lot of evidence that shows a strong correlation between the two? Why else would they have it? It's a meat market, you're evaluating the athlete based on physical metrics. It's one of the few objective ways to evaluate a football player. The number one overall pick Jadeveon Clowney had freakish combine numbers. He ran a 4.53 40 yard dash. He was faster than Johnny Manziel. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Why else would they have it? It's a meat market, you're evaluating the athlete based on physical metrics. It's one of the few objective ways to evaluate a football player. Right, but pure physical metrics aren't the only determinant of future success. Combine greats turned busts Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Right, but pure physical metrics aren't the only determinant of future success. Combine greats turned busts I think a better comparison would be Combine busts who turned into NFL stars. Trust me if Clowney was a homosexual, no one would care. But Sam was projected a mid-round player, at best, by scouts. Bringing the media attention that comes with him being the first openly gay player when you're not even sure if he'll make the team could be considered a distraction. It's the same reason Tim Tebow can't get on a team right now. He's clearly better than many of the back-ups on NFL rosters but no one will touch him because a back-up or third stringer isn't worth the attention. Edited July 23, 2014 by Boges Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 I think a better comparison would be Combine busts who turned into NFL stars. Trust me if Clowney was a homosexual, no one would care. But Sam was projected a mid-round player at best by scouts. Bringing the media attention that comes with him being the first openly gay player when you're not even sure if he'll make the team could be considered a distraction. It's the same reason Tim Tebow can't get on a team right now. He's clearly better than many of the back-ups on NFL rosters but no one will touch him because a back-up or third stringer isn't worth the attention. Sounds like the NFL is just as conservative and hidebound as the NHL in some ways (overvaluing character over talent). Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Sounds like the NFL is just as conservative and hidebound as the NHL in some ways (overvaluing character over talent). Not really. Michael Vick is still in the League. Jameis Winston was accused of raping a woman and recently shoplifted, he'll get drafted. One of the most lauded players in recent history is Ray Lewis is suspected of killing someone. I could go on, and on, and on a bit further. If you have talent then you'll be in the league. The big question is does Michael Sam have what it takes to make it in the league. Edited July 23, 2014 by Boges Quote
Black Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Not really. Michael Vick is still in the League. Jameis Winston was accused of raping a woman and recently shoplifted, he'll get drafted. One of the most lauded players in recent history is Ray Lewis is suspected of killing someone. I could go on, and on, and on a bit further. If you have talent then you'll be in the league. The big question is does Michael Sam have what it takes to make it in the league, not if he's Gay or not. Interesting. I don't recall this much talk about "disruption" when any of those guys came back from their troubles. Quote
Boges Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Interesting. I don't recall this much talk about "disruption" when any of those guys came back from their troubles. There was a lot of media attention around the return of Michael Vick, lots of protests too. Jameis Winston's potential rape case was huge news last December as he was the reason his team won a National Title. Ray Lewis is one of the best Middle Linebackers in the history of the sport. What we're talking about here are players (Sam and Tebow) who's celebrity is by far outweighed by the perceived value they have to the team. Edited July 23, 2014 by Boges Quote
Big Guy Posted July 24, 2014 Report Posted July 24, 2014 I don't feel the need to credit bigots for being open about their bigotry. ... Dungy himself came into pro football as a visible minority at a time when being a visible minority was a potential source of disruption. Dude's a straight-up (pun intended) bigot and hypocrite. A football coach is hired to win football games. His job is not to make changes in society or to send some social message to others. If a coach started selecting players based on his own personal sense of social justice or to play them according to some societal agenda then he would out quickly - and good riddance. Many coaches and owners have got rid of potentially good athletes if they felt that their participation would be an overall detrimental impact on the team. The reason could be a poor attitude, drug use, family conflicts, political stance, body odor or ... If I was an owner of a team I would hire and keep a winner - not a sociologist. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Black Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 Is this a distraction? When Ravens running back Ray Rice was indicted on a third-degree assault charge after a physical incident with his soon-to-be-wife at an Atlantic City hotel, the team was preparing for Rice to miss three games due to a suspension. Instead, it's reportedly even less than that. According to the Baltimore Sun and our NFL Insider Jason La Canfora, the NFL has suspended Rice for the first two games of the 2014 season and fined him an additional game paycheck. Quote
Boges Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Is this a distraction? Not from the media I don't think. Rice did get a 2 game suspension so that'll teach him. The story about this is another player got suspended for a full year for smoking pot. Calls into question the priorities of the NFL. BTW I'm not comparing being homosexual to committing assault but if Ray Rice was a 7th round pick trying to make the team and not the starting Running Back, I suspect he'd have been cut over this. Edited July 25, 2014 by Boges Quote
Black Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 Not from the media I don't think. Rice did get a 2 game suspension so that'll teach him. The story about this is another player got suspended for a full year for smoking pot. Calls into question the priorities of the NFL. Gold star to the first reporter who asks Rice, when he returns, if he's stopped beating his wife yet. BTW I'm not comparing being homosexual to committing assault but if Ray Rice was a 7th round pick trying to make the team and not the starting Running Back, I suspect he'd have been cut over this. Pretty cool sport. Quote
Boges Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 Pretty cool sport. As opposed to which sport? The big problem with the NFL is there is no real developmental league. You can't make the practice squad you're on your own, you gotta play semi-pro, arena league or try your luck here in Canada. So when a player is drafted he's gotta be able to make a team that year and not get sent down to develop like in Hockey, Basketball and Baseball. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 As opposed to which sport? Well, I think NFL is the worst of the lot. They weren't calling it the National Felon League for nothing. The big problem with the NFL is there is no real developmental league. You can't make the practice squad you're on your own, you gotta play semi-pro, arena league or try your luck here in Canada. So when a player is drafted he's gotta be able to make a team that year and not get sent down to develop like in Hockey, Basketball and Baseball. Point I was making is that teams are willing to turn a blind eye to some pretty reprehensible shit. That seems to apply at all levels of the sport from high school to college to pro. I know we see the same thing in junior hockey, but the scale is just so much greater in football. Quote
Boges Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Well, I think NFL is the worst of the lot. They weren't calling it the National Felon League for nothing. Point I was making is that teams are willing to turn a blind eye to some pretty reprehensible shit. That seems to apply at all levels of the sport from high school to college to pro. I know we see the same thing in junior hockey, but the scale is just so much greater in football. Are you trying to say that because the NFL is violent it attracts violent people? The NHL is violent. They actually allow players to fight each other. You could combine the violence with the fact that many of the best players come from troubled backgrounds. Hockey is expensive game to take up and generally families have to be well off to develop a kid into a pro. So are talking about race here? NBA players come from similar backgrounds in some cases. Not sure the numbers comparable though. An NBA team has 12 players, an NFL team has 53 players so the pool is a lot larger. Edited July 25, 2014 by Boges Quote
Black Dog Posted July 25, 2014 Report Posted July 25, 2014 Are you trying to say that because the NFL is violent it attracts violent people? The NHL is violent. They actually allow players to fight each other. No. What a strange interpretation. Quote
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