Pro Life? Then Don't Run Under Liberal Banner

[cybercoma]

I mean seriously, what would even give you that idea? Does an absent father pay for ALL food, clothing, and toys for the child? Does he pay for maternity clothing and supplement the rest of a woman's wages while she's on maternity leave? Does he pay the additional cost of fuel to travel to doctors appointments? Does he pay for medication when the child gets sick? Does he pay for childcare when her maternity leave is up?

Seriously, how can anyone think that women have no financial responsibility for children. That is astonishingly ignorant. Even men who pay child support do not cover the entire cost of raising the child.

[guyser]

A woman can give up her child at birth with no financial consequences. Heck, she can give the child up any time. A friend of mine was given up by her mother when she was four because she was going to marry a man who didn't want her. Mom just dumped her at childrens aid and went off to get married.

Your friend isnt telling the whole story then.

[cybercoma]

Oh, I'm really sure a mother just gives up a 4 year old for adoption all willy nilly. You know she can't do that without the father's consent right? Once a child is born, she can't unilaterally give it away. He has to be given the option of custody first.

[monty16]

A woman can give up her child at birth with no financial consequences. Heck, she can give the child up any time. A friend of mine was given up by her mother when she was four because she was going to marry a man who didn't want her. Mom just dumped her at childrens aid and went off to get married.

The mistake you are making is that you're cherrypicking a few anecdotal stories to suit your agenda of hate for women's rights. In reality it's the woman that cares for the child in a huge majority of cases, probably well in excess of 99% of the cases of a broken family.

In reality, there's no need to have mechanisms that hold women responsible. Again, in the lion's share of cases, if a woman leaves her children there are other reasons at play. Think abuse by her husband or mental illness, or, ........

But why are you doing this? I see this as unnatural behaviour that is possibly motivated by some sort of programming in childhood that has carried over to adult life. Do you have a better explanation? It's not natural behaviour to try to single out examples of women when men are perhaps a thousand times more likely to be the offenders.

Do you think it's more prevalent with women than that?

[cybercoma]

The mistake you are making is that you're cherrypicking a few anecdotal stories to suit your agenda of hate for women's rights. In reality it's the woman that cares for the child in a huge majority of cases,

93% of the cases according to the NLSCY.

[Argus]

Oh, I'm really sure a mother just gives up a 4 year old for adoption all willy nilly. You know she can't do that without the father's consent right? Once a child is born, she can't unilaterally give it away. He has to be given the option of custody first.

She was a single mother. In fact, my friend didn't even find out who the biological father was for thirty years.

Mom gave her to CAS and walked away.

[cybercoma]

What am I supposed to take away from you anecdote? Would you like an anecdote that says the exact opposite? About a mother who couldn't put her child up for adoption because she had to give custody to the father, even though she didn't want to?

[Argus]

93% of the cases according to the NLSCY.

The fact courts normally prefer to award custody to the mother rather than the father is off topic from this discussion, and irrelevent to it.

The point is women can simple dump their babies. Men can't do the same.

[Argus]

What am I supposed to take away from you anecdote? Would you like an anecdote that says the exact opposite? About a mother who couldn't put her child up for adoption because she had to give custody to the father, even though she didn't want to?

That isn't relevent to what I said either. I said that a woman could simply dump her child with no further responsibilities, including financial, while a man cannot do the same.

[Argus]

The mistake you are making is that you're cherrypicking a few anecdotal stories to suit your agenda of hate for women's rights.

I'm not sure a guy who has fanboy posters of Vladimir Putin and Sadaam Hussein on his walls should be talking to anyone else about hatred. You wouldn't have such unreserved admiration for brutal murderers if you weren't full of hate for all humanity, after all.

[Black Dog]

That isn't relevent to what I said either. I said that a woman could simply dump her child with no further responsibilities, including financial, while a man cannot do the same.

Except for all the times they do.

[jacee]

That isn't relevent to what I said either. I said that a woman could simply dump her child with no further responsibilities, including financial, while a man cannot do the same.

Biological reality.

Man had a choice.

Man fails to protect himself against unwanted pregnancy, chooses to risk making a baby, man takes the consequences.

Edited May 28, 2014 by jacee

[Boges]

Wow JT really showed leadership by allowing a Pro-Life MP to call him a Bozo and say that if him and his handlers actually thought this policy through, it's a terrifying thought.

BTW why is JT allowing John McKay in his party? he clearly hates women because he doesn't want them to have the autonomy over their body to kill the fetus growing inside them.

[cybercoma]

Biological reality.

Man chooses to risk making a baby, man takes the consequences.

thats the exact same argument pro-lifers use that you claim is invalid.

[jacee]

She was a single mother. In fact, my friend didn't even find out who the biological father was for thirty years.

Mom gave her to CAS and walked away.

Father wasn't interested in being found, didn't want custody or child support payments.

Father dumped the child and ran away and hid.

Happens all the time.

[jacee]

thats the exact same argument pro-lifers use that you claim is invalid.

How so?

[Smallc]

A woman didn't take the proper steps to protect herself from unwanted pregnancy, and should live with the consequences.

Agree jacee?

Edited May 28, 2014 by Smallc

[jacee]

A woman didn't take the proper steps to protect herself from unwanted pregnancy, and should live with the consequences.

Agree jacee?

It's a biological reality that women do live with the consequences, whether they choose abortion or childbirth.

.

[Smallc]

It's a biological reality that women do live with the consequences, whether they choose abortion or childbirth.

.

I was showing you what Cyber was saying.

[overthere]

That isn't relevent to what I said either. I said that a woman could simply dump her child with no further responsibilities, including financial, while a man cannot do the same.

In many cases what gets dumped is a few ccs of sperm into a uterus, and that's the beginning and end of the mans commitment.

[GostHacked]

In many cases what gets dumped is a few ccs of sperm into a uterus, and that's the beginning and end of the mans commitment.

I hope you don't intend to be a father.

[cybercoma]

How so?

Like this...

Biological reality.

Woman had a choice.

Woman fails to protect herself against unwanted pregnancy, chooses to risk making a baby, woman takes the consequences.

[cybercoma]

It's a biological reality that women do live with the consequences, whether they choose abortion or childbirth.

.

The issue that many men have is that women have the choice, rightfully I might add, to walk away from an unwanted birth. Men don't have that option. They're required to go with whatever decision the woman makes. What happens if protection fails and the man isn't ready to be a father yet? What option does he have to walk away from it? I'm not saying he should have any choice over whether a woman gives birth or not. That's entirely up to her what to do with her body. However, men don't have the same kind of reproductive choice as women. The law protects women from men walking away and not taking responsibility for their children. Women have the option, even after getting pregnant, to choose whether or not they want to be a mother.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's important that men are accountable because too many children are living in poverty due to men skipping out on unwanted pregnancies. Having a child is a huge responsibility that requires the finances and time of more than one person. It takes a lot of social support from family, friends, and community. I don't know how to reconcile ensuring paternal responsibilities with the freedom to choose whether or not someone wants to be a father. You could argue that men just shouldn't have sex if they're not ready to be a parent. However, the exact same argument can be used for abortion. If you're not ready to bear children, then just don't have sex. I don't buy it for women and I likewise don't buy it for men.

The key difference both logically and morally is that abortion is about bodily autonomy and paternal responsibility is about fiscal autonomy. Burdening someone with a fiscal responsibility is not even remotely comparable with requiring someone to have something grow inside their body for nine months against their will. Since women have complete control over whether or not they become a mother, I would like to see similar options for men. Since they can't legally or ethically control whether or not a woman carries a pregnancy to term, what option is there and how do we protect against people taking advantage of women? I don't know, but I'm not satisfied with logic that could be equally applicable to abortion.

[Argus]

Except for all the times they do.

Not legally

[Argus]

Biological reality.

Man had a choice.

Man fails to protect himself against unwanted pregnancy, chooses to risk making a baby, man takes the consequences.

So you're saying women have no choice but to have sex?

And btw, it doesn't matter if the man tries to protect himself. As demonstrated in court, even when the pregnancy comes about due to a failed condom, the man still bears responsibilty. If it comes due to the lies and fraud of the female, the male is still responsible. If she says she's on the pilll, but isn't, if she says she had her tubes tied, but hadn't, well, that doesn't matter. If he's a mninor, but she's an adult, even if she gets convicted for it, he still has to pay child support. Even if she steals sperm from a used condom and uses that to get pregnant, he's still responsible. However, at no time is she responsible. She can abort the baby at any time, as she chooses, for any reason, or have it, then give it away and wash her hands of any financial responsibility.

http://www.mommyish.com/2011/11/23/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/

Edited May 28, 2014 by Argus