Britain is a Christian Country

[Smallc]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/david-cameron-s-christian-country-remarks-fuel-mini-media-frenzy-1.2619116

I don't like it, but technically, isn't he right?

[Michael Hardner]

What is a "Christian country" anyway ?

I would take it to mean that a majority of the country professes that faith. The article says that "last year’s British Society Attitudes Survey, 51 per cent of those polled described themselves as having no religion."

Based on that, I would say Cameron is wrong but that the country has a long and obvious Christian tradition. Really, there's just semantics and facts to be discussed. But of course people on both side of the stupidity divide will rapidly wave their hand fans in front of their faces in absolute shock... because they have nothing better to do, I'm guessing.

[Moonlight Graham]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/david-cameron-s-christian-country-remarks-fuel-mini-media-frenzy-1.2619116

I don't like it, but technically, isn't he right?

Is there something in their constitution/laws that says this? Something about the Church of England and the monarchy or whatnot?

[eyeball]

What is a "Christian country" anyway ?

I would take it to mean that a majority of the country professes that faith.

I take it to mean that the majority in supposedly secular democracies are still expected to know their place in the hierarchy of vested power and that it's authority flows down from on high as opposed to the belief it wells up from below. Something which, in this day and age of unrepentant oligarchy, takes increasingly larger leaps of faith to maintain.

Edited April 24, 2014 by eyeball

[Smallc]

Is there something in their constitution/laws that says this? Something about the Church of England and the monarchy or whatnot?

If I recall, the Church of England is the Official State Religion of the UK, with the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland at its head.

[cindi]

According to the BBC It is technically correct constitutionally and historically as England has an established Church with it’s Bishops sitting in the House of Lords. The Monarch is head of state and also the supreme governor of the Church of England. One of the monarch's titles is Defender of the Faith.

Changing yes for sure, but as Rees said. The legal system was founded on "the Christian principles of justice and fairness"

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27111146

[Smallc]

So it's not wrong, even if it should be.

[Remiel]

Milliband kind of stuck his foot in it when he said he wanted to be the first Jewish PM, to the dismay of Disraeli fans and overzealous Jews. But what Cameron is harping on here is crass and stupid beyond belief. His main opponent is Jewish and he is emphasizing that Britain is a "Christian country" ? Perhaps the mods can forgive me this one time for using the expression: WHAT. THE. -BLEEP-. ???

Edited April 25, 2014 by Remiel

[-TSS-]

No democratic country should have any official state religion. You've got this thing right in North-America. Religion is a private matter. No country? Well, perhaps a country like Israel could be an exception for obvious reasons.

[-TSS-]

In many European countries the Christians count you as one of them for all your life if you have been baptised as a child, no matter what kind of an atheist you could be.

In Finland, and AFAIK in other Scandinavian countries, where the Evangelical-Lutheran Church is the main-denomination the church is like a club that you pay taxes into but you can resign from it and then avoid taxes. The tax is around 1% of your income.

Up until the 80's over 90% of the population belonged to the church. Not because people would be religious, only because people were baptised into it as children and never got round to resign when they were old enough.

Even today 75% of the population still belong to that club. Needless to say really that I belong to the growing club, now 22%, known as civil register which means no religion.

Imagine it really: 1% of your income and people agree to pay that in return for what? Marriage? You can get married at the city hall. Funeral? Do you really imagine that if you don't belong to the church your corpse is going to be let to rot without being done away with.

1% of your income, the money people would save if they left the nowadays anyway cultural-marxist organisation advocating more immigration, what all kinds of things one would do with that money? Travel, drink a lot etc.

[iolo]

I wish people would learn about the UK, while it is still there. The Episcopalian C of E is the established church in ENGLAND; the Presbyterian Church of Scotland is established on a slightly different basis there; 'Wales' and Northern Ireland have no established churches.

How would you decide if a country is Christian anyway? The US is officially not, yet the majority claim to be, yet the actions of the Country are resolutely anti. Cameron is trying to gain a few votes by lying: what's new?

[Rue]

Cindi and Small C are accurate in their explanations of why constitutionally the British state is technically Anglican.

fact the UK is by its constitution and origins tied directly to the Anglican Church and the head of the state is the head of the Anglican church as most of us know goes back to King Henry and his need to create a new church as the Vatican was not too fond of his divorces.

Britain is a country now with a huge influx of Muslims, and it of course has a Catholic-Anglican tension, Hindus, and many cultures and religions. The fact it retains its Christian origins does not make it racist not when the same symbols that tie in to Christianity (Anglicanism) openly embrace other religions which it does now.

This brings me to what TSS said.

In Israel's case though it is not so quite easy to explain its state link to the Jewish identity. Israel's Zionist ideology does not define the Jewish identity simply as a religious one as the Anglican identity does. IZionism sees the Jewish identity as a collective of Jews tied not just by religion but many other attributes including culture, ethnicity, language.

In fact you can't get a consensus in Israel or between Jews as to what being a Jew means. Our very religion is structured to retain open on-going debate about what anything means. We have been in argument about how to define ourselves forever and will remain in argument about it forever because in our culture it forever changes. Its not a stagnant identity.

What Israel did in its unwritten constitution and has been enforced by its Supreme Court and lower courts is to separate out of the state laws, family and religious laws if Muslims and Christians wanted to opt out of the state non denominational laws. It allows Muslims and Christians their own religious courts to decide family, marriage, and religious issues. In fact it causes a conflict because modern Christian and Muslim Israelis choose the Israeli state family laws and not the religious courts. Jews too in Israel can opt out and go to Jewish religious tribunals and that also causes tension with modern Jews who also find such tribunals antiquated.

Israel also unlike the Palestinian Authority or Hamas, openly recognizes Christian Churches of many denominations and their land rights. This is why for example the state of Israel pays rent to many Christian churches where it built government buildings including the Knesset on Christian church lands. Technically the state protects the Jewish identity but it recognizes other religions equally and so this is why for example the main temple for Bahaiis is in Tel Aviv.

Israel like Britain chooses a specific collective identity tied to the state symbols but in practice it allows non Jews their own religious rights.

So I would summarize by saying Britain being an Anglican state means many things. Its a symbolic tie. It still causes tensions with certain non Anglicans yes. Heck in Quebec it still causes tensions for similar reasons. I say look at the practical day to day level of freedom the citizens enjoy. The symbolic representations of the continuation of the state I ARGUE reflect back to the majority of the people who started it.

Yes certain people use their religion in a bad way. But I think people read too much into what Cameron said.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Rue

[cindi]

No democratic country should have any official state religion. You've got this thing right in North-America. Religion is a private matter. No country? Well, perhaps a country like Israel could be an exception for obvious reasons.

What about Muslim countries with their State religion and sharia law which are theocracies, is that right for them or is it an exception too.

Why should Britain have to make changes to accommodate atheists et al. No one is forced to be Anglican or believe in any religion and neither is Britain a theocracy so no one loses out, it's all part of their history based on the Magna Carta really.

John, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justices, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his officials and loyal subjects, greeting.

Know that before God, for the health of our soul and those of our ancestors and heirs, to the honour of God, the exaltation of the holy Church, and the better ordering of our kingdom etc. etc. .

http://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/translation/mc_trans.html

[iolo]

BRITAIN is NOT, NOT, NOT 'an Anglican state'. I think it is very rude to ignore what you are told.

[Rue]

IoloI don't thin she is deliberately being rude. Just making her point. I would say this to you. Constitutionally Britain is an Anglican state. The head of the state is the head of the Anglican Church, that is why its called the Church of England.

Does that mean the state from a practical perspective is Anglican? I don't think that is the issue. The fact that Britain historically was created and still is symbolized as an Anglican state does not mean it can not be a democratic state tolerant of non Anglican faiths.

Sure British history is replete with religious and other wars, but today, right now as we speak, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Catholics, Bahaiis, atheists,

Lutherans, all kinds of faiths other than Anglican whether they are Christian sects or other religions entirely are treated with respect and tolerance.

Its like trying to deny that Russia has not always been a Russian Orthodox Christian state, or the Ukraine state is not related to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, or there is no link between Christianity and many European states. Their constitutions make references to Christianity.

I myself believe all religions should be separate from state in an ideal world. However in the practical world, its not always the case.

I doubt the Prime Minister in Britain meant any harm or intolerance in what he said.

[iolo]

I simply point out that the C of E is established only in England. It is not established in the other countries, other than Cornwall. That is simply fact.

[Guest]

It is not established in the other countries, other than Cornwall.

Did I miss something? It's been a while since I was back.

[Rue]

I simply point out that the C of E is established only in England. It is not established in the other countries, other than Cornwall. That is simply fact.

I take that point. Understood.