Time to Phase Out Whales in Captivity

[segnosaur]

Why do you disagree? And how do you measure appropriate accommodations? If we continue to accommodate these mammals, animals, birds etc in aquariums and zoos, the unscrupulous methods of capturing them will not stop.

First of all, keep in mind that many of the animals in captivity were NOT captured in the wild. They were bred in captivity.

And secondly, I suspect that most zoos (At least the big recognized ones) probably go to great lengths to ensure any animals on display were obtained by people competent in their field.

And even if there were problems with animals captured improperly.... go after those doing things wrong!

Once they are bred or rehabilitated, they should be let back into the wild unless they would not survive. We should not keep them penned up, solely for the profits of these zoos and aquariums.

Lets take a look at some average life spans...

zeebra: In the wild: 25 years, in captivity 40 years

Chimpanzee: in the wild: 40 years. In captivity 60 years

Orangutan: 40 years in the wild, 50 in captivity

Polar Bear: 18 years in the wild, 40 in captivity

Although I'm sure your average zoo owner is not running the place just for the benefit of the animals, those that are kept at the zoo usually live longer and healthier lives than their wild counterparts, with less stress and less pain.

Once again, I urge you to stop anthropromorphizing animals. They have different thought processes than humans. While you complain about their "lack of freedom", the fact is that animals don't always have the need to "run free".

[eyeball]

Here's a question for you...

You stated that killer whales were killed during the process of trying to capture them...

Do you have any proof or evidence of that happening (recently)? I had assumed you were correct, since it doesn't seem that far fetched to think of incompetent marine "researchers" doing things they don't have the qualifications to do. Just wondering if you had any numbers or actual reports to confirm that.

I posted this earlier

The reports come via orca researcher Erich Hoyt, author of Orca: The Whale Called Killer,who in 1999 helped found the Far East Russia Orca Project (FEROP) to study Russian killer whale populations. According to Hoyt, Russian hunters, working for the Utrish Dolphinarium, have been trying to capture wild Russian orcas since at least 2002. In 2003 they managed to corral a group more than 30 orcas off southeast Kamchatka, killing one young female in the nets and transporting a second female across Russia to the Utrish Marine Station on the Black Sea, where she died 13 days later.

Since then, Hoyt says, additional attempts were made (five orcas in total are estimated to have been killed during Russian capture attempts), but Russia, thanks in part to appeals by FEROP, stopped issuing permits for orcas off Eastern Kamchatka. Permits for 6-10 orcas a year continued to be issued for the Sea Of Okhotsk, but it is more logistically challenging, which seemed to put a brake on capture efforts.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/nature/Orcas-Captured-In-the-Wild-for-Aquariums-and-Water-Parks.html

Yes it does. But, the operative word in that sentence is "were" (as in past tense).

I've already admitted that there were problems with keeping whales in captivity in the past. But as our knowledge has improved, husbandry techniques have gotten better, and the survival rates of whales in captivity has also improved.

Well, in addition to those killed during capture the link I provided above also mentions the poor condition of captive animals due to transport.

I think its because they look more impressive and powerful, and have more of a mystique about them.

Whatever it is public sentiment is not on side with capturing wild orcas. I suppose we could just assume the public is too ignorant to pass judgement, you get that a lot when these days when it suits.

Again though, that seems to be anthropromorphising animals, assigning them human characteristics that likely don't have.

I think it's because we're empathetic animals who recognize the emotions other animals exhibit. I'm just trying to imagine how this discussion would unfold if it were about Martians coming to capture humans to put on display in zoos?

Take for example the zebra. Some might claim that they long for the "freedom" of galloping magestically across the plains of Africa, rather than being stuck in a zoo. What people fail to understand is that when that zebra is galloping, its likely not doing so because it enjoys the wind in its face, but because its being chased by a predator, a stress that I suspect most Zebras would rather avoid (and one that they won't have to worry about in a zoo).

Spoken like a bureaucrat at the Department of zebra happiness.

The same with killer whales... They are intelligent animals, and as a predator they require significant mental stimulation. But, they're "freedom" is likewise filled with risks. Earlier on you claimed that Killer Whales "celebrated" a successful hunt. But that's probably less a case of "Look what I managed to do" and more a case of "Whew, survived another close call. Glad I didn't get injured".

I'm often in contact with a couple of orca researchers through the course of my work and they often use the word celebrate to describe the social behaviour we see following a hunt. If its a good enough term for trained specialists to use in the field I think it's probably an appropriate one. I saw the very same sort of behaviour following the calf's birth, breaching, tail lobbing, spy-hopping, lots of vocalizing (these were transients that are otherwise usually very quiet).

Not sure if you knew this, but technically Killer whales aren't "whales". They're actually members of the dolphin family.

Yes I know that just as I know dolphins are also cetaceans - a technical word for whales.

Again, you might be guilty of assigning human characteristics to animals incapable of human thought processes.

Or I might be making reference to a Ray Troll Tee-shirt.

The fish's brain is (at least in many ways) much more primitive than that of Homo Sapiens. They don't have the same emotions or ability to process memories that humans have.

Apparently the speed at which signals between the brain and the body's nervous system are processed has a lot to do with the ability to think. A greater abundance of interactions gives rise to a more active mind. I recall reading about a neuroscientist that studied insect brains. He said that while insects have small brains they also have small bodies and that the shorter distances involved allowed for far more interactions. He concluded there was a lot more going on inside an insect's head than meets the human eye and now he had a hard time squashing them.

Edited April 13, 2014 by eyeball

[eyeball]

Once again, I urge you to stop anthropromorphizing animals. They have different thought processes than humans. While you complain about their "lack of freedom", the fact is that animals don't always have the need to "run free".

Earlier on you claimed that Killer Whales "celebrated" a successful hunt. But that's probably less a case of "Look what I managed to do" and more a case of "Whew, survived another close call. Glad I didn't get injured".

It takes an anthropomorphizer to know one I guess.

[waldo]

While those may have been wonderful experiences, not everyone will have the resources available to have similar experiences.

that was my point... as much as those experiences took me into the 'heart of nature', few will have the time/inclination/resources to encounter like experiences. I used that recent weeks CBC broadcast of the 'Wild Canada' series example to emphasize that some of that photography/video betters my personal experiences. I was able to watch that wolverine I mentioned for all of 30 seconds before it noticed me... now, for the first time ever we're able to watch lengthy video of wolverines in the wild. The humpbacks I've seen below water have been from a distance... the 'Wild Canada' series showed humpbacks quite literally traveling just feet above the underwater photographer, feeding mouths agape! An alternative to sit up in a bleacher seat to watch a whales/dolphins 'Trix-R-Us' act in a smallish cement enclosure is pretty much the farthest thing from natural habitat, natural behaviour... animals in the wild.

[waldo]

...those that are kept at the zoo usually live longer and healthier lives than their wild counterparts, with less stress and less pain.

the unnatural habitat and loss of social structure hardly speaks to representative quality of life... but then, that's not what zoos are about, is it? You participated in that recent MLW thread that showcased the Danish zoos killing/gutting/dismemberment of a giraffe... did you just choose to ignore the video I put forward in that thread that showed typical examples of unnatural behaviour/stress animals present in zoos... or did you not see it?

[WestCoastRunner]

Once again, I urge you to stop anthropromorphizing animals. They have different thought processes than humans. While you complain about their "lack of freedom", the fact is that animals don't always have the need to "run free".

Did you consult with some of these animals to see if 'they no longer had the need to run free'?

[Rue]

There are many interesting studies on animal behaviour. Most animal behavioural specialists will agree that when you confine any animal's movement, it will cause negative behavioural issues whether that animal is domesticated or wild.

There was a new school of zoology that came about in the 1960's that felt if you enlarged the environment and made it as close to the original environment as possible animals would be o.k.

This has been proven to be untrue.

The fact is if you confine any wild animal it will manifest negative reactions to the confinement which eventually turns into physical health issues and so in that regard they are no different than we humans.

What is particular to whales and the dolphin-porpoise family is that they have very large complex brains. We know they communicate and perceive in a highly advanced manner and react emotionally no different than us. Kill their children they mourn. They show anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder no different than us.

For this reason to confine a whale or porpoise is ill advised. That said it is true they will voluntarily approach humans.

The problem is if we interacted with them as equals that would be one thing but when we interact we impose on them either military or entertainment tasks and therein can lie the problem. As military weapons, dolphins are treated with care as are say canines by police and the armed forces but they do exhibit tension, anxiety and illnesses no different than regular soldiers.

I defer to people in professional services with animals to tell you that and the respect they have for them and that respect sets a tone different than in zoos.

Now I can tell you if you took the time to study the intelligence level of pigs for example, you would find they have great memories, are smarter than dogs, mourn when you kill their piglets, feel pain no different than you and I, and when they form relationships with humans are extremely affectionate and will actually get sick and depressed when their human friends die.

There is a lot we take for granted and ignore about animals. They are far more complex in cognitive ability and emotional feeling than we think. Part of the reason we shut that out is because we eat them. If we realized what we eat suffers or feels the way we do it would cause a spiritual crisis for many.

When meat is packaged, it has no feeling. It takes on a detached identity and we do not think of it as the flesh of a living creature.

I am one of those people who believes eating flesh is a part of nature and its a choice people can make or refrain from. I preach to know one.

However I would argue there is no way we should be taking life forms as intelligent if not more thoughtful and sensitive than our own and do what we are doing to them.

Circuses and zoos come from an era when we thought all creatures dumb. Now we know better its time to move on and learn a new level of respect and no it would not hurt to phase out zoos.

What we should have instead are animal sanctuaries designed to nurse to health animals and let them free-period.

I agree with many on this forum who say to appreciate a life form lets look at it from a distance in its natural environment and respect its natural habitat. Instead of spending money capturing animals for zoos, let's spend it on preserving their environments.

The cruel reality is we will not and the majority of us on the planet will wipe out the remaining wildlife for profit-much in the third world, where conservation is a rich white man's concept and does not correspond with reality and what one does to eat and survive.

[Bryan]

This is interesting. It reminds me of these resort places that have these 'swim with the dolphins' programs. Some of these programs have dolphins that were captured and taken away from their families in the wild and are now put on display to please the tourists. It's a sad state of affairs.

Have you ever been to one of those places? I've been to a few, one particular one in Cuba several times. Those animals are happy and very well cared for. The relationship is very much like a dog. They love being around the humans.

[waldo]

Have you ever been to one of those places? I've been to a few, one particular one in Cuba several times. Those animals are happy and very well cared for. The relationship is very much like a dog. They love being around the humans.

nonsense! Wild dolphins are not like domesticated dogs... nothing 'like a dog'. Those responses you see as "happy" reflect upon food deprivation training. The dolphin "smile" is nothing more than the shape of it's mouth. Those cement ponds/smallish artificial lagoons are nothing like the natural aquatic environment that allows dolphins to properly interact, to swim upwards of 50 miles a day, to dive hundreds of feet, to predate normally... to eat live fish, not dead fish! Forcing wild dolphins to swim in circular patterns is highly impacting on their normal behaviour. A handful of dolphins in a highly artificial "pen" does not foster the normal social structure and relationships available within natural dolphin pods. I've had great opportunity to "swim with the dolphins"... as in come upon them while diving. I have warm recollection of one encounter with a bottlenose pod that seemed like a wash of pink underbelly before my eyes... but then, hey, there was no opportunity to pet them... like a dog!!!

[Wilber]

Have you ever been to one of those places? I've been to a few, one particular one in Cuba several times. Those animals are happy and very well cared for. The relationship is very much like a dog. They love being around the humans.

Domestic dogs have been bred to interact with humans over thousands of years. All domestic dogs are descendent from wild dogs. We are a curiosity to wild dolphins, not buddies. While there has never been an incident of a killer whale intentionally harming a human in the wild, several in captivity have killed their trainers. You would think that should say something about how captivity affects cetaceans.

[bleeding heart]

Rue, Waldo and Wilber have each said it better than I could. Agreed completely.

[Shady]

This topic is a bit old, but I just wanted to mention that I think I've changed my mind a bit on this subject. I think as a general rule, whales in captivity should be much less common than it currently is.

[WWWTT]

This topic is a bit old, but I just wanted to mention that I think I've changed my mind a bit on this subject. I think as a general rule, whales in captivity should be much less common than it currently is.

Good for Shady, Bravo buddy, I tip my hat off to you!

I personally believe that all creatures on this planet are sentient beings.

Don't get me wrong, I will still eat meat and fish. After all, we must all survive.

Good to see you on board!

WWWTT

[eyeball]

This topic is a bit old, but I just wanted to mention that I think I've changed my mind a bit on this subject. I think as a general rule, whales in captivity should be much less common than it currently is.

What changed your mind?

[cybercoma]

I think I've changed my mind a bit on this subject.

Well, I'm impressed that you're able to admit you've changed your mind on something. Most people won't.

What made you change your mind?

I don't know anything bout this topic, so I don't have any opinion on it. Hearing where you stood before and why you changed your mind may educate me on the subject.

[Shady]

Well, I'm impressed that you're able to admit you've changed your mind on something. Most people won't.

What made you change your mind?

I don't know anything bout this topic, so I don't have any opinion on it. Hearing where you stood before and why you changed your mind may educate me on the subject.

I watched this documentary. It's pretty amazing. Not only the bad stuff, but some of the good stuff as well. Some of the trainers really for a long term bond with the whales. However, there's obviously a high risk to training them. And the sheer size of the animals doesn't lend itself to being in captivity, the way say lions or bears, or other mammals do. It's quite easy to provide a natural habitat in good size for most other mammals. It just isn't for whales. Add in the obvious level of sophistication of the animals, that's well above the average animal, and it makes it that more difficult. I'd urge everyone to watch it. There's some terrifying footage in it, but also some very nice stuff as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsdoPGsWdn0

[Mighty AC]

I just watched Blackfish recently as well. It's very well done and currently available on Netflix. The Cove is another doc worth watching.

[eyeball]

The heartbreaking stuff didn't have anything to do with changing your mind? A lot of people who mention Blackfish to me relate how affected and even distressed they were during the part about the captive mother orca's rage, grief and emotional suffering when her calf was taken from her. The part I recall the most was the aquarium worker's account of being mocked for their misgivings about the effect this separation would have.

.

[Bonam]

My thought in defense of keeping these sorts of animals in captivity is it creates a lot of awareness about the existence of these animals and interest in these animals among a lot of people, especially young people, who may then be more interested in making sure these species are protected. To a young child, seeing a real live whale rather than just seeing pictures of one in a book or on the internet has a lot more of an effect. Aquariums and zoos make that possible for a large chunk of the population.

I think the net effect on educating the public and creating a liking for these animals among a portion of the public which then help to push for policies/initiatives to protect the environment and endangered species is likely worth it.

[Mighty AC]

My thought in defense of keeping these sorts of animals in captivity is it creates a lot of awareness about the existence of these animals and interest in these animals among a lot of people, especially young people, who may then be more interested in making sure these species are protected. To a young child, seeing a real live whale rather than just seeing pictures of one in a book or on the internet has a lot more of an effect. Aquariums and zoos make that possible for a large chunk of the population.

I think the net effect on educating the public and creating a liking for these animals among a portion of the public which then help to push for policies/initiatives to protect the environment and endangered species is likely worth it.

That's a good point. I've been involved in taking kids out to explore natural environments in part to build empathy and respect for species, food webs, natural ecosystems, etc. It's an effective way to combat nature deficit disorder, but in my neck of the woods we simply don't have access to ocean environments and many of the world's most impressive land animals. Aquariums and zoos can educate a lot of people, while also allowing for breeding and research opportunities. However, we can probably do away with shows that make animals perform tricks for our amusement.

[Shady]

I just watched Blackfish recently as well. It's very well done and currently available on Netflix. The Cove is another doc worth watching.

I've seen the cove, it's good, but I was never for the hunting or killing of whales. That's not really what this topic is about.

[monty16]

Most of the political right are Christians and Christians don't think animals are capable of the higher emotions such as fear or sadness. This has a lot to do with the reason why we continue to torture whales and dolphins and other highly intelligent animals in cages or small tanks.

Capture a Christian and throw it in a tank!

[guyser]

Capture a Christian and throw it in a tank!

Abrams or do you prefer Leopard tanks?

[Shady]

Most of the political right are Christians and Christians don't think animals are capable of the higher emotions such as fear or sadness. This has a lot to do with the reason why we continue to torture whales and dolphins and other highly intelligent animals in cages or small tanks.Capture a Christian and throw it in a tank!

I'm not really sure why you brought religion into this. It's more about economic and scientific interests.

[monty16]

I'm not really sure why you brought religion into this. It's more about economic and scientific interests.

Religion is at the root of the problem of course. The world is only now coming to realize that we are only another animal and we aren't somehow basically different. They all feel pain and suffering, both physical as well as emotional. If you don't fully understand that then you won't get the connection with religion. It's religion that has kept us backward and not understanding animals' feelings.

If you truly didn't understand why religion is connected then I'm happy to have been of some help to you.