Can Detroitisation reach Canada too?

[Accountability Now]

Seriously, what does this mean?

You're attacking the source rather than the content.

[WestCoastRunner]

Well, whatever it means, it shut me down. I have no clue what it means.

[Accountability Now]

Well, whatever it means, it shut me down. I have no clue what it means.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

You said that BC couldn't speak with expertize on the subject of London, ON because he was American. It didn't matter what he said, you just attacked the fact that he was from the US. That is an ad hominem fallacy.

[-1=e^ipi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[WestCoastRunner]

good for you. you shut me down.

[-1=e^ipi]

You're welcome.

[WestCoastRunner]

I am sure this was beneficial to the conversation. Good on ya!

[Accountability Now]

This idea is not new....Calgary could also be a contender:

]

I wouldn't be surprised about this one or Edmonton for that matter. Both cities are heavily reliant on oil/gas much like Detroit was dependent on the auto industry. Sure....there are other industries here but it's no mystery that oil/gas drive the economy. It wasn't long ago where oil dropped significantly and all the rigs stopped drilling. There were loads of people out of work immediately. Luckily it didn't sustain and oil came back but the reality is that if the price ever stayed low for long periods then all of Alberta would be in trouble. Maybe even Detroit trouble as most people who moved here for the work would leave for work elsewhere..

[-TSS-]

Not on the same scale as Detroit but I have seen here in Finland how once thriving little communities can turn into decay very quickly. Namely, as you may know, pulp-industry is a very strong industry in Finland but as the corporations have shifted production more and more into cheaper countries many mills have been closed down.

Many towns in Finland are totally reliant on a paper-mill located in the town. All life in those towns is in one way or another geared around that factory. If the corporation decides to close it it destroys the town as there is really no other work available.

[Spiderfish]

Not on the same scale as Detroit but I have seen here in Finland how once thriving little communities can turn into decay very quickly.

It happened to countless smaller communities across the prairies in Canada as well, with the shift from family farming to large industrial operations, and the overall change in scale of production and transportation of grain and livestock.

[Accountability Now]

It happened to countless smaller communities across the prairies in Canada as well, with the shift from family farming to large industrial operations, and the overall change in scale of production and transportation of grain and livestock.

It also happened or is happening to a lot of pulp towns in BC. Here is a look at the top 10 worst towns to live in Canada based mostly on unemployment and declining populations.

The bottom 10

170: Terrace, BC

171: La Tuque, QC

172: Summerside, PEI

173: Prince Rupert, BC

174: Campbell River, BC

175: Port Alberni, BC

176: Quesnel, BC

177: New Glasgow, NS

178: Williams Lake, BC

179: Bay Roberts, NL

BC towns have 6 of the bottom 10 and I know that most if not all of them were affected by struggling pulp operations.

http://www.moneysense.ca/spend/canadas-10-worst-cities-to-live-in

Edited April 1, 2014 by Accountability Now

[guyser]

For a lot of reasons there wont be any 'Detroit' in Canada no matter how much one wants it.

Detroit lost for numerous reasons, main ones being the pensions and the flight from the city. The pension lianilities for Detroit equal 25% of all of Torontos operating budget. That shows how stupid the people running the city were. From Young to Kwame, all incredibly stupid and not a lick of oversight.

Well what about Winnipeg? Nope, population is increasing therefor the tax base is fine.

Edmonton? Increasing.

Calgary? Increasing.

What about the pension funds? Cities in Canada have more financial and regulatory oversight than U.S. towns and cities

Of the major 50 municipalities , none are rated below A, 90% rated AA- or better

OMERS will have pensions self funding in the next decade

CDN towns and cities shouldnt be smug, problems can occur, but to think there could be a Detroit in Canada is laughable.

[-TSS-]

What is your view: Could Detroit's downfall have been made less dramatic if the state had intervened earlier? For the reasons of political correctness the state may have hesitated too long to put a stop on what's going on in Detroit.

Edited April 1, 2014 by -TSS-

[guyser]

What is tour view: Could Detroit's downfall have been made less dramatic if the state had intervened earlier? For the reasons of political correctness the state may have hesitated too long to put a stop on what's going on in Detroit.

Perhaps, but the laws and municipal oversight rules would have had to change.

Detroit is where it is for opverpaying on pensions and having complete incompetents running the city. Hell, even Rob Ford would be an improvement over what they have had.

[Black Dog]

Not on the same scale as Detroit but I have seen here in Finland how once thriving little communities can turn into decay very quickly. Namely, as you may know, pulp-industry is a very strong industry in Finland but as the corporations have shifted production more and more into cheaper countries many mills have been closed down.

Many towns in Finland are totally reliant on a paper-mill located in the town. All life in those towns is in one way or another geared around that factory. If the corporation decides to close it it destroys the town as there is really no other work available.

What's the cultural/racial makeup of these towns?

I ask because you seem to be suggesting in your OP that Detroit's racial makeup is part of the reason for its decline.

[hitops]

The auto industry and the city had the same problems - bloated salaries and pensions. It's destroyed Detroit, and destroyed the US auto industry several times over if not for massive bailouts. Unions are directly responsible for those benefits and pensions.

The flight from the city was a symptom, not a cause. 30 years of bad policy and ignorant political belief helped turn it into a hovel.

Detroit is far from the only city to file, they are just the biggest. A whole pile of cities and towns in California have done do as well. The common political beliefs allowed to foster nearly opposed for decades are coming home to roost. Some states are prospering and gaining, and some are sinking into debt and losing people. The pattern is fairly clear as to which.

[PIK]

It happened to countless smaller communities across the prairies in Canada as well, with the shift from family farming to large industrial operations, and the overall change in scale of production and transportation of grain and livestock.

We all remember seing pics of the empty grain elevators across the prairies. I seen a show yrs ago about someone tearing down these old buildings and the wood in the slide where the grain slides down was worth a fortune to cabinet makers. It was quite interesting.

[ironstone]

Canada is set up differently than the US, provinces support each other through various means such as equalization programs. When the overall economy of the country is strong, it benefits all regions of Canada. I don't think we would see a great deal of decline or attrition of any major centers with the economy of the country in generally good health. If the economic health of the country was to decline however, I think this scenario could change.

I don't think the equalization program in Canada is a great success.The worst example is how Quebec always recieves billions and has very generous social programs.Not to mention how Quebec has never contributed a dime since the equalization program started either.

And is it not fair to say that Detroit has mostly been run by the Democrats and the big unions?

[cybercoma]

Detroit was in trouble before the auto manufacturers collapsed. When the Big 3 were doing well in the 90s with the SUV boom, despite the increasing popularity of foreign-made cars, Detroit was already in the grave. The Race Riots at the end of the 60s led to massive flight from the city. Those who left were not only the white middle class, but also black people that were wealthy enough to get away from the violence. This left an impoverished underclass behind that could never afford to fund the city with their incomes/wealth. The suburbs flourished. Coleman Young became mayor in '73, if I remember correctly, and he was quite possibly one of the most corrupt municipal politicians in US history. Subsequent mayors weren't any better (Kwame Kilpatrick was convicted of some very serious offences). Police were in the mayors' back pockets and did little to nothing about crime, making Detroit one of the worst cities in the US. More people left as a result. A city of that size cannot run on the poor who were left behind to hold it up. Take a look at the median incomes in the city versus those in the surrounding municipalities. It's a stark contrast.

In short, these arguments that industrial collapse caused Detroit's problems are missing Detroit's biggest problem. The flight of a sustainable tax base to the suburbs and rampant crime. This all began well before the auto industry fell apart.

[-TSS-]

Though the city of Detroit has lost a lot of population the Detroit metro-area has remained more or less the same. People have just moved to the suburbs.

I don't know how it goes in Canada but in the USA the value of your house is determined by various factors and, unlike one may think, one factor which increases the value of your house is that there is not a railway anywhere near it. Almost anywhere else having a railway near your house increases the value of your house because having a railway near you means you are within good connections.

In the US cities, except for the very big ones like NYC or Chicago, the situation is different. Having a railway near your house means that there is bound to be public transport near your house and public transport means poor people who can't afford to drive and having poor people near you increases the worry that they bring all kinds of social problems.

Edited April 5, 2014 by -TSS-

[cybercoma]

The problem is that the suburbs aren't part of Detroit's tax base. They have their own municipal governments and taxes.

[Bryan]

In the US cities, except for the very big ones like NYC or Chicago, the situation is different. Having a railway near your house means that there is bound to be public transport near your house and public transport means poor people who can't afford to drive and having poor people near you increases the worry that they bring all kinds of social problems.

That's similar here too. The places with the highest home values are often the places with the least public transit. I think you have the relationship backwards though. People who are most likely to take public transportation are least likely to afford to live in those areas. It's not keeping transit people out so much as it is people who live in those suburbs don't use transit so why waste money building it out there?

[WestCoastRunner]

The places with the highest home values are often the places with the least public transit. People who are most likely to take public transportation are least likely to afford to live in those areas.

It's a bit different here in the lower mainland. Condos and other real estate are priced at a higher premium if they are located closed to skytrain and the Canada Line stations. Commuting in lower mainland by car is absolutely crazy. People that live in the suburbs out here would love to have fast transit that can take them to Vancouver if they were available. If transit were built out in the surburbs, they would certainly be used.

[-TSS-]

Vancouver had been described as the most European style Canadian city despite that it is as far away from Europe as is geographically possible.

[guyser]

Vancouver had been described as the most European style Canadian city despite that it is as far away from Europe as is geographically possible.

Uh...really?

Moreso than Quebec City? Im thinking not.