Ontario releases sunshine list

[Scotty]

So the sunshine list is out again and once again we get to see how grossly overpaid so many municipal and provincial employees are. Hospital executives are, as usual, huge earners. Another big, profitable group of high earners are the executives of Ontario Power Generation, whose president earned $1.7 million dollars. Tons of other people in hydro and OPG make mega salaries well above anything seen in the federal public service. The top three earners in Ontario are OPG execs, but lots more execs from OPG and hydro are high on the list.

Toronto's city manager makes $363,000, This is actually as much as the top public servant in all of Canada, the clerk of the privy council. You'd think one job would command a somewhat lower rate of pay than the other, but apparently not.

The chief of police in Toronto makes $343,000, whichi is considerably more than the Chief of Defense Staff for the Canadian army makes. And unlike the chief, the CDS is actually competent.

There are a bunch of hospital executives earning from $400,000-$750,000. By comparison, Canada's deputy minister of health makes $270,000.

University presidents are very well rewarded, too. The president of the University of Toronto makes more than $700,000. By comparison, the University of Western Ontario's president gets a paltry $560,000, and the associate dean of business at UofT only $440,000

Again, the guy who runs the federal public service, consisting of close to 300,000 employees, full and part time, spending tens of billions of dollars makes about $340,000. Can anyone tell me why a university president or hospital executive should be paid twice as much?

There are tons of doctors on this list, which, for the most part, I don't begrudge, but also tons of cops and firefighters, which I do. These are positions which do not require any real education or unique skills, and are grossly overpaid.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/which-public-servants-earn-more-than-100000-search-the-sunshine-list/article17699726/

[overthere]

Again, the guy who runs the federal public service, consisting of close to 300,000 employees, full and part time, spending tens of billions of dollars makes about $340,000. Can anyone tell me why a university president or hospital executive should be paid twice as much?

I wonder about the other side of this , which is why would somebody running a corporation with 300,000 employees work for so little?

Why not find somebody competent, pay them the millions they'd surely get in the private sector, and have it run by professionals?

[Big Guy]

The sunshine list was introduced by the Mike Harris Government in 1995. He stated that it was an attempt to be transparent and keep wages down by embarrassing public workers.

I do not think that it worked and in fact tended to increase public wages. With the publication, all public employees earning roughly $100,000 know the exact income of their counterparts, which leads to a cycle of employees competing to match or exceed the salaries of their peers.

The other problem I find with this list is that the $100,000 threshold was never indexed to inflation. Due to inflation, $150,000 today would be similar to the $100,000 threshold introduced in 1995. There are so many on the list that it does not make any impact these days. The increasing size itself is making it irrelevant.

I have no problem with how much these people are earning. They are receiving what the market will bear. The pool of individuals who are qualified to fill these positions is very small and the pay scales are equivalent to the private sector corporations.

As to relative salaries, Miguel Cabrera's record $248 million extension is a done deal now, as the Tigers have locked up their superstar to an eight-year extension. That works out to about $31 million a year. President Obama makes $400,000 a year while a Licensed Vocational Nurse (LVN) / Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) receives about $39,000 yearly.

Go figure.

Besides, except for you and me, everybody is is being paid way too much!

[Scotty]

I wonder about the other side of this , which is why would somebody running a corporation with 300,000 employees work for so little?

Why not find somebody competent, pay them the millions they'd surely get in the private sector, and have it run by professionals?

There's no evidence that high paid CEOs are actually any better at their jobs. For every corporation which makes great strides and has its stock rise there are two which fall low and whose stock collapses. And all of them make these big salaries now, where they didn't a while ago. Are corporations better run now than they were when the CEO only made 12 times what the guy on the factory floor made instead of 100 times as much? No evidence to support that.

[Scotty]

I have no problem with how much these people are earning. They are receiving what the market will bear.

This isn't about markets or capitalist concepts. These are public employees. What has the market got to do with it? Are you saying that no potential university president would work for less than half a million dollars a year? Are you saying we couldn't hire police or firefighters if we weren't paying them $100k per year (74% of those on the list are first responders). Since we can clearly find highly trained and educated individuals to run the federal public service at far lower salaries, we clearly CAN pay less to university and hospital administrators. It's entirely up to the government what they wish to pay.

Also bear in mind we have a limited ability to pay. If every cop costs $100k plus benefits, then we have to get by with a lot less of them than if they cost $70k plus benefits. Same goes for firefighters. If we have a hundred million dollars to pay for police salaries, we can hire 1,000 cops at that rate or 1,428 cops at $70,000. Which would perform the job of policing the city better?

[Michael Hardner]

I wonder about the other side of this , which is why would somebody running a corporation with 300,000 employees work for so little?

Why not find somebody competent, pay them the millions they'd surely get in the private sector, and have it run by professionals?

I wonder what "running the federal public service" actually means in this context. The sunshine list is a small piece of information that sparks a lot of discussion, but the discussion usually goes nowhere because there's no public to continue it meaningfully.

Maybe somebody "in the know" can talk about one of these executive positions and we could have a discussion on that ? Anyone ?

[Michael Hardner]

I have no problem with how much these people are earning. They are receiving what the market will bear.

*COUGH*COUGH* Sorry... I just spit-taked my maple-syrup and Molson's....

As to relative salaries, Miguel Cabrera's record $248 million extension is a done deal now, as the Tigers have locked up their superstar to an eight-year extension. That works out to about $31 million a year. President Obama makes $400,000 a year while a Licensed Vocational Nurse (LVN) / Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) receives about $39,000 yearly.

And I got paid zero to post this amazing MLW post.

So, it's understood: the market, and collective moral valuation - on their own - do not determine salaries.

Besides, except for you and me, everybody is is being paid way too much!

Well, speak for yourself. I know *I* need a raise !

[Topaz]

Since the public workers and management are making more thanks to the taxpayers, then it only make sense to keep ALL workers wages up, so we can pay for those wages. I think most workers would agree, that everyone should get a increase in pay to keep pace with COLA.

[Boges]

The market for sports can bare athletes making an obscene wage. They're like movie stars, they create wealth and can have a very short career.

Comparing athletes to public servants is a joke. Public servants artificially raise their relative worth because, in theory, the revenues to pay them can be modified through taxation.

I blame governments and arbitrators more than anything for the outrageous growth in the wages of civil servants and the size of government.

But the fear mongering we hear when politicians propose to cut waste is infuriating.

[Bob Macadoo]

Another big, profitable group of high earners are the executives of Ontario Power Generation, whose president earned $1.7 million dollars. Tons of other people in hydro and OPG make mega salaries well above anything seen in the federal public service. The top three earners in Ontario are OPG execs, but lots more execs from OPG and hydro are high on the list.

Did you know that the CEOe of a comparable American power generator (TVA) makes near $6 million, and he's seen as underpaid compared to private power generators.

Toronto's city manager makes $363,000, This is actually as much as the top public servant in all of Canada, the clerk of the privy council. You'd think one job would command a somewhat lower rate of pay than the other, but apparently not.

The approved budget for the City Manager of Dallas (smaller pop., workforce, services) is $400k.

University presidents are very well rewarded, too. The president of the University of Toronto makes more than $700,000.

The president of THE Ohio State makes a cool $1 million. UofT IMO is a bit more illustrious.

Again, the guy who runs the federal public service, consisting of close to 300,000 employees, full and part time, spending tens of billions of dollars makes about $340,000.

He manages employees, he hasn't any bugetary jurisdiction, so they really play little part in that 10's of billions. Together with the fact most on here thinks he must do a bad job what with all those bad procurement specialists, lazy postal employees and whatnot he might be overpaid. Edited March 31, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Bob Macadoo]

As has been said above I see alot of salary porn watchers, not much benefit for you knowing. It helps me in knowing that other salaries are rising when I negotiate my pay......if everyone was suppressed as some would have what available knowledge would you have to know you're underpaid.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[overthere]

There's no evidence that high paid CEOs are actually any better at their jobs. For every corporation which makes great strides and has its stock rise there are two which fall low and whose stock collapses. And all of them make these big salaries now, where they didn't a while ago. Are corporations better run now than they were when the CEO only made 12 times what the guy on the factory floor made instead of 100 times as much? No evidence to support that.

I live a much easier and fatter life with far more disposable income than my parents, and their generation could claim the same over their parents generation.

Perhaps a relatively free market had something to do with all that wealth, which is unprecendented in the history of our species. Something is going well, and I suspoect it didn't happen because some mid level bureaucrat gets paid badly.

All this salary envy is just that: people making less money that hate their reality.

[Argus]

I live a much easier and fatter life with far more disposable income than my parents, and their generation could claim the same over their parents generation.

Perhaps a relatively free market had something to do with all that wealth, which is unprecendented in the history of our species. Something is going well, and I suspoect it didn't happen because some mid level bureaucrat gets paid badly.

All this salary envy is just that: people making less money that hate their reality.

I make way more than my parents made. But that's completely irrelevant to whether CEO's have gamed the system in order to make a lot more money at our expense.

And guess what, your kid, should you have one, is likely to make less than you and have a much less secure job. Companies no longer provide any kind of job security. Even the government doesn't. And every one of them is looking to hire people for less money, given them less benefits, and less rights. A 'relatively' free market has little to do with lobbyists bribing politicians to change the tax code, and change the rules so they can get wealthy at everyone else's expense.

[Argus]

Did you know that the CEOe of a comparable American power generator (TVA) makes near $6 million, and he's seen as underpaid compared to private power generators.

Given the operating efficiency of OPG minimum wage would be an outlandishly high salary for these people.

It's hard to imagine you could do a worse job by simply hiring random passerbsy on the streets and offering them one tenth the salary.

He manages employees, he hasn't any bugetary jurisdiction, so they really play little part in that 10's of billions. Together with the fact most on here thinks he must do a bad job what with all those bad procurement specialists, lazy postal employees and whatnot he might be overpaid.

He manages the entire public service, its policies and procedures, and is involved in all aspects of organization of the public service. He is, in effect, the boss, for all the deputy ministers and commissioners.

In any event, your claim about budgets is pointless since all the deputy ministers who work for him him DO manage tens of billions in budgets, and all for far and away less of a salary than city, hospital or university heads get.

[Bob Macadoo]

Given the operating efficiency of OPG minimum wage would be an outlandishly high salary for these people.It's hard to imagine you could do a worse job by simply hiring random passerbsy on the streets and offering them one tenth the salary.

What's the operating efficiency of OPG? Is it low relative to other nuclear operators? Do they blow through their operating budgets? Want to evaluate your expert random opinion or is this more of your Afghani commentary coming through?

In any event, your claim about budgets is pointless since all the deputy ministers who work for him him DO manage tens of billions in budgets, and all for far and away less of a salary than city, hospital or university heads get.

Thanks for not disproving anything I said. So let me get this straight;

Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mGS2tKQhdhY Edited April 2, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Argus]

What's the operating efficiency of OPG? Is it low relative to other nuclear operators? Do they blow through their operating budgets? Want to evaluate your expert random opinion or is this more of your Afghani commentary coming through?

Ontario Power Generation has been a mess for many years. That was why it was turned into a crown corporation to begin with. Unfortunately, it has remained a mess. We produce more power than we need, pay far more for it than we should, and sell it at a loss, a huge loss. Recently, an auditor's report resulted in the immediate termination of the chief financial officer and two vice presidents. Clearly you aren't from Ontario or you'd know something about that. Interesting that instead of putting even a cursory effort to look into it you decided to, for some reason, bring in something about Afghanistan, a topic on which you weren't even involved. Or at least, you weren't involved under this name...

for not disproving anything I said.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to 'disprove' what you said, given you'd offered ZERO evidence to support what you said in the first place. I think what I instead demonstrated was how utterly irrelevant your comment was, given the enormous imbalance between what is being paid to university, municipal and hospital chiefs, and the people who run huge federal departments.

[Big Guy]

Executive management jobs require specific qualifications. Because of the specifics, it is a rather small pool. The people who choose from the candidates in this small pool (usually the board of directors) have the responsibility to hire someone who has a proven record for success - I believe that these are the same conditions in both the private and public sectors. As a result, the best candidates in this small pool demand $millions in salary and extensive benefits and job security. Them's the facts.

The board of directors of any $multi billion corporation would be nuts if it decided to take a chance on an "unqualified" candidate who would work at a smaller salary.

If you feel that they are being paid too much then find out what education/qualifications are required, get that education and qualifications and then apply for the job. If you cannot or are not prepared to do so then stay on the sidelines and keep throwing stones at those who have worked to get into the parade.

[Argus]

Executive management jobs require specific qualifications. Because of the specifics, it is a rather small pool. The people who choose from the candidates in this small pool (usually the board of directors) have the responsibility to hire someone who has a proven record for success - I believe that these are the same conditions in both the private and public sectors. As a result, the best candidates in this small pool demand $millions in salary and extensive benefits and job security. Them's the facts.

Small pool? I think that there is a small pool of people who belong to the right clubs, who generally know and associate with each other, and who don't mind rewarding each other with enormous pay cheques since, let's face it, it's not coming out of their pockets. No one has ever demonstrated that the enormous increase in CEO pay over the past few decades has translated into better educated, better skilled CEOs. And as I've pointed out, every company which is run into the ground, including a number of big banks, was driven there by a richly rewarded CEO.

If you feel that they are being paid too much then find out what education/qualifications are required, get that education and qualifications and then apply for the job. If you cannot or are not prepared to do so then stay on the sidelines and keep throwing stones at those who have worked to get into the parade.

For the most part, it's who you know. Who you went to schools with, what clubs, parties and associations you go to and who your contacts are. To suggest that running a moderately sized company, like the many in Canada, for example, that you've probably never even heard of, requires a salary level which is ten or twenty or fifty times higher than a deputy minister running a multi-billion dollar department with tens of thousands of employees is just silly.

I'm not saying these guys aren't educated, mind you. I'm not saying they aren't even very capable people. But there comes a point, and we long ago passed it, when paying ever richer rewards to CEOs does not lead to any better performance of the company.

[Shady]

I dont understand the need to compare CEO's, who's pay doesn't come from taxpayers with public "servants" that make an ungodly amount of money off of the backs of Joe and Jane Q Taxpayer. It's irrelevant and just a shiny object designed to distract people from the real issue.

[On Guard for Thee]

I dont understand the need to compare CEO's, who's pay doesn't come from taxpayers with public "servants" that make an ungodly amount of money off of the backs of Joe and Jane Q Taxpayer. It's irrelevant and just a shiny object designed to distract people from the real issue.

Aren't investors sort of the same as your so called Joe and Jane?

[Bob Macadoo]

Clearly you aren't from Ontario or you'd know something about that.

You know what people who assume do right? Except more you than me though. Clearly I was allowing you to provide evidence rather than rhetoric as a master de-bater should. I could have fed you the info but you proved my point.

Ontario Power Generation has been a mess for many years. That was why it was turned into a crown corporation to begin with. Unfortunately, it has remained a mess.

Is a "mess" a MBA term I'm not familiar with like "bullish"? The operation of OPG assets have been some of the most effecient in North America. Read the financial reports, they are public publications. Ontario Hydro was more efficient operationally but was subject to excessive meddling by ministry personnel. This resulted in business decisions regarding capital planning that suited politicians rather than the public purse. Now that its OPG there is less (still significant though) involvement. Coal was shutdown as per dictum.

We produce more power than we need, pay far more for it than we should, and sell it at a loss, a huge loss.

Welcome to a tilted "free" market brought to you by your gov't where private operators are guaranteed a price and market share where your public assets are price regulated to subsidize the other players and are still misplanned. We don't have too many assets you have a framework that doesn't allow efficient operation.......thanks privatization.

Recently, an auditor's report resulted in the immediate termination of the chief financial officer and two vice presidents.

What in the report were they fired for? Did you actually read the report or were the rant.com talking points not clear?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to 'disprove' what you said, given you'd offered ZERO evidence to support what you said in the first place. I think what I instead demonstrated was how utterly irrelevant your comment was, given the enormous imbalance between what is being paid to university, municipal and hospital chiefs, and the people who run huge federal departments.

1) I didn't think 0 evidence was demonstration of market price for service...hmm.

2) I didn't realize demonstration of irrelevance was restate your position with an insult....interesting.

I guess I don't have 10 years on this board to have that kind of experience.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Bob Macadoo]

I dont understand the need to compare CEO's, who's pay doesn't come from taxpayers with public "servants" that make an ungodly amount of money off of the backs of Joe and Jane Q Taxpayer. It's irrelevant and just a shiny object designed to distract people from the real issue.

What would we compare them to? Imaginary job positions, or public servant jobs in 3rd world countries. How would you evaluate the market worth of these public positions?

[Michael Hardner]

He manages the entire public service, its policies and procedures, and is involved in all aspects of organization of the public service. He is, in effect, the boss, for all the deputy ministers and commissioners.

What does that mean, specifically though ? What are the measures of success for his position exactly ? "Being a manager" is a title, kind of like "being a king". Even "managing" is such a murky phrase these days.

I want to know what objectively makes this person successful.

In any event, your claim about budgets is pointless since all the deputy ministers who work for him him DO manage tens of billions in budgets, and all for far and away less of a salary than city, hospital or university heads get.

What do they do ? I do believe that mid level managers in the government are paid less than the private sector, as you have pointed out (I think), but there are also more of them and at the top of the pyramid is a minister who likely didn't have experience with large organizations when they arrived in Ottawa.

[Michael Hardner]

I think the Bob M-Shady-Argus conversation on this thread promises to yield some interesting specifics.

Bob M can you help move us into that direction by pointing us to:

"Read the financial reports, they are public publications"

[Argus]

I dont understand the need to compare CEO's, who's pay doesn't come from taxpayers with public "servants" that make an ungodly amount of money off of the backs of Joe and Jane Q Taxpayer. It's irrelevant and just a shiny object designed to distract people from the real issue.

Where do you think CEO pay comes from? The Easter Bunny? It all, in the end, comes from the pockets of ordinary people.

The millions of dollars that go into their pockets can be looked at in two ways. The first is that's millions of dollars that don't go to shareholders. The second is that if the CEO had a more reasonable pay, the millions could go to the employees of the firm in the form of higher wages.