Will Ukraine Be Partitioned?

[Rue]

here is my response to Bleeding Heart.

Of course I am aware what happened to Jews in the Ukraine. Some of my family were killed in pogroms outside Kiev and others shot in ditches by pro Nazi Ukrainians and so?

What you want me now to hate Ukrainians and brand them all fascists? Really? .

Ukrainians need not apologize wanting to be free. I have also said the same about Palestinians too. Why so surprised Bleeding Heart? I defend the right of people to want to be free whether they be my people Ukrainians, Palestinians.

Ukrainians are not defining themselves as superior to Russians. They have not gone on a mass campaign to gas Russians and refer to them as vermin, etc. Stop trying to paint Ukrainians as fascists for seeking freedom. Stop asking me to hate them because of past transgressions. I will not.

I do not speak for Ukrainians. I do not get to. I can only support them now in their struggle to be free. In my opinion the only people who should speak about what Ukrainians desire and want are Ukrainians, not me, not Putin, not trendy leftists on this board.

I do not agree with Bush's stereotyping of nationalism. I do not believe all forms of nationalism are identical.

I reject calling Israelis racist or being nationalists for the same reason I reject people now doing the same with Ukrainians.

The Ukrainian people have not done any injustice to Russians in Crimea. The claim they were harming Russians is fabricated. It was a fabrication created by Putin to justify his seizure of that land and he already had an agreement to full access of the port for use by his navy and to export his gas. The Ukrainian government never threatened this access.

This is about Putin demonstrating to the West he will and can crush countries and rebuild his empire. This is pay back for moving Nato into Poland, the Baltic States, etc. This is Putin saying to NATO, phack you, I am pushing back and who will stop me? The US? They are bankrupt? Who else, you cowardly Europeans addicted to my gas? Hah.

The Ukraine's people said no to corruption and tyranny. They chose to enter the Euro community not its up to that community to stand up for Ukrainians.

Bleeding Heart, if I hated people simply because they come from countries where there are people who hate Jews where would that end at? Would it be productive?

You think Zionism taught me to hate people who hate me? Really? It taught me Zionism is not a complete vision that can be achieved without we Jews finding peace and showing mutual respect to non Jews. It was never meant for us to hate anyone-simply be the master's of our own destiny so never again will we be the target of a holocaust.

The Ukrainian people are saying the same thing only instead of holocaust replace the word with mass starvation/genocide caused by Stalin.

When the Ukraine became an independent state, Israel reached out to it and the Ukrainian government reached back. We understand each other's pain and how that pain led us to create our own states.

I do not believe its fair to stereotype Zionists as hateful racists any more than I do the trendy leftists doing the same to Ukrainians now suggesting their nationalism is based on hatred. It is not. They have not gassed or exterminated Russians. They have not hurt them. They have not stated that Russians are inferior to them. Enough with the inferences Ukrainians are bad people if they don't want to be puppets of Putin. Enough of the selective morality which calls Ukrainians and Israeli fascists, and Hamas a freedom fighting organization. Enough with such selective bs.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Rue

[bleeding heart]

Thanks for the response, Rue. Given your remarks, I think you misunderstood me.

I was not talking about the general scourge of anti-Semitism, which as you say exists in many places, to various degrees. I was not talking about past types of anti-Semitism in Ukraine.

I was talking about elements of the current opposition in Ukraine...and how far-Right groups, with alarming pedigree and history and a possible neo-fascist make-up, are now a greater part of the Ukrainian Government.

Some have debunked this...but here's a piece that debunks one of the debunkers, as it were. I've laid out his salient points, as I think anyone concerned about anti-Semitism, and the far-right in Europe, should be aware:

[svoboda's] original name (the Social-National Party) and logo...were deliberate echoes of Nazism. It supposedly purge neo-Nazi elements in 2004, but its ostensibly more moderate leader, Oleh Tyahnyhbok, is notorious for his atatcks on the "Moscow/Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine," and the "Moskali, Germans, Kikes and other scum who want to take away your Ukrainian state."

One of [his] top advisors....set up something called the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" in 2005.

Also present is "The Right Sector," an unltranationalist group that has criticized Svoboda for its "pacifism."...[they] describe themselves as "nationalist, defending the values of White, Christian Europe."

Well, that sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Now, in case we think these are outliers...wrong: they are now part of Ukranian political office, while Canada, the US et al defends and supports them rhetorically:

The new Deputy Prime Minister is from Svoboda; National Security Secretary...is a co-founder of the neo-Nazi National-Social Party, Svoboda's earlier incarnation; the Deputy Secretary for National Security is Dmitro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector.

Also from these ranks come the Chief Prosecutor and the Ministers for Agriculture and Ecology.

So, I would argue, Rue, that running the military and the Justice system are quite important positions..

http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/

[Rue]

I hear you Bleeding Heart and with respect. I get your points but you are talking about certain people NOT all the people. I am talking about the Ukrainian people who went onto the streets with their lives threatened seeking freedom not some people as you state who could be suspect.

I don't write of Ukrainians because some of them may be bad anymore then I write of Palestinians or Israelis for the exact same reasons.

Don't ask me to write off a people who are willing to die for their freedom because of certain questionable people.

[ASIP]

However it seems that western media is blowing the Russian troops already stationed there out of proportion claiming it is a new influx of troops.

Yes, there is some exaggeration in numbers, but only a handful of APV seen in early days of invasion belong to marines stationed in Sevastopol. Vast majority of troops what we see in photographs now are fresh arrivals. They are GRU commandos. New types of combat vehicles appeared. Every day Russia moves 200 - 300 new troops via ferry in Kerch. Recently Russia started using assault ships to bring even more troops and vehicles. They can unload on beaches.

By my estimate based on releases of Ukrainian MND, before the conflict there were 11,000 - 12,000 Russian troops in Crimea. Now the number is about 18,000. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

[bleeding heart]

I'm not asking any such thing.

I'm saying that the idea of "Good guys" vs. "bad guys" is being complicated...not least by the possibility of far-right fascist sympathiers, anti-semites and White Nationalists being key players in the opposition...and now in the government itself.

[Argus]

Nationalism is branding, or one can just buy lower quality generics, which are just sub-par seconds from the nationalists anyway.

You mean like U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!!

[bush_cheney2004]

You mean like U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!!

No...more like "OWN THE PODIUM !!! " Ukraine gets medals too.

[Argus]

No...more like "OWN THE PODIUM !!! " Ukraine gets medals too.

So a sports slogan is nationalism but crowds of people screaming USA! USA! USA! has nothing to do with nationalism?

[GostHacked]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Rue]

Bleeding Heart again with due respect to say the leading players of the Ukrainian nationals are anti-semites, white supremacists, etc. is not true. The people on the street are just average Ukrainians. Now you want to start suggesting the nationalists are all Nazis what about Putin and his supporters?

What suddenly Putin is a fighter in favour of democrats. Come on. He appointed a criminal from the Russian mob to oversee Crimea. The puppet in power who was thrown out of the Ukraine was a corrupt sob. Take a good hard look at Putin and the criminal syndicate and Stalinists he is in bed with. He's no progressive freedom fighter. Leave Jews out of this. There are anti-semites in all Euro countries.Leave it at that. This civil conflict is not about anti-Semitism or using Jews as a way to prop the legitimacy of Putin. He is not in this to free people from tyranny. Give that angle a rest. he is there to say to the West you expanded into former Warsaw Pact nations now I push back.

This is not about Russians in Crimea. This is about Putin trying to show he's the new boss of Europe.

The European Union is addicted to Russian gas.The US can not do a damn thing. They have told the Euros they will support them against Russia but their hands are tied waiting to see if the EU will do anything or do what it usually does, cower and turtle.

The EU is addicted to gas and Putin is the drug supplier. The EU has 3 choices. One is to find a new source. The second is to try kill him and replace him with a new pusher or three, give up its addiction. Since 3 is not likely it comes down to 1 and 2. Canada has more than enough gas and has just signed a free trade deal with the EU. Its time to turn to Canada and cut as much dependency on Putin as possible.

It is also time to tell him to phack off. I think Obama and Kerry are useless but to me the US has its hands tied no matter who their leader is.As long as the EU are addicted to Russian gas and won't stand up to Putin there is not much the US can do alone. It blew its economy on Iraq and Afghanistan.

It has a huge internal financial problem and is going through an isolationist phase and turning inwords.

The world which has grown dependent on US protection better wake up. Putin is another Stalin and Hitler in 1.

[jbg]

Putin's goal is to resurrect the Soviet Union. I think he will get it, and without much push back from anyone else.

The one thing we could and should do is invite Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia into NATO, along with countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Bulgaria. Anything else we could do, in areas such as Ukraine or Crimea, amount to orchestrated cries of anguish.

[Boges]

The genesis of this crisis was Ukraine not being allowed into NATO. If Ukraine was a member of NATO this incursion into the Crimea would be seen the same as if Russia invaded Newfoundland.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Boges

[-TSS-]

If Estonia weren't a NATO-member Russians would probably have invaded Estonia during the bronze statue-dispute a few years ago.

[Argus]

The one thing we could and should do is invite Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia into NATO, along with countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Bulgaria. Anything else we could do, in areas such as Ukraine or Crimea, amount to orchestrated cries of anguish.

Since all those countries are already members of NATO you don't seem to have much in the way of helpful suggestions here...

[Argus]

The genesis of this crisis was Ukraine not being allowed into NATO. If Ukraine was a member of NATO this incursion into the Crimea would be seen the same as if Russia invaded Newfoundland.

Actually it was Ukraine not being allowed to engage in a closer economic association with the European Union.

[Rue]

Well Russia today on cue is now creating a crisis in the Eastern Ukraine to justify invading there as well. It clearly intends to annex the Eastern Ukraine as well as Crimea and use ethnic unrest as an excuse.

Putin has illegally seized Ukrainian gas to prevent a gas competition war and maintain a monopoly on natural gas supplies to Europe as well as give Europe the message he is the new boss on the block running Europe now the US is no longer there to cover their butt as it did after WW2.

What next? Do people really think Putin will stop at the Ukraine? Did Stalin and Hitler? How much history from the past do we need to show when a dictator goes on a military expansion, it does not stop.

What I will concede to Bleeding Heart is, that in addition to the average Ukrainian who is no extremist now being upset, this is going to trigger the ultra right wing fringe extremists in the Ukraine who I predict will engage in terror tactics against Russia which might then trigger a full and total take over of the Ukraine. Extremists come out when these things happen and give people like Putin desperate to use terrorism as an excuse, to justify their invasions.

Russia is baiting the UK knowing the extremists will take the bait.

The EU and United Nations where have they been? To no surprise, they do nothing. Where are they? Where is Germany right now? Merkel is trying to act as mediator but she is far more powerful economically than she is militarily. Where are the economic sanctions?

Edited March 10, 2014 by Rue

[GostHacked]

The EU and United Nations where have they been? To no surprise, they do nothing. Where are they? Where is Germany right now? Merkel is trying to act as mediator but she is far more powerful economically than she is militarily. Where are the economic sanctions?

It may go something like this. EU and NA issue sanctions. Russia turns off oil/gas supply to the EU.

[-TSS-]

It's all going to the plan for the Russians. The news of Ukraine is slowly dieing down and little by little everyone seems to accept that the Crimea is now de facto a part of Russia.

What is going to happen next? Will Putin go after other former Soviet republics under the excuse of protecting the Russian-speaking minorities?

[ASIP]

It's all going to the plan for the Russians. The news of Ukraine is slowly dieing down and little by little everyone seems to accept that the Crimea is now de facto a part of Russia.

What is going to happen next? Will Putin go after other former Soviet republics under the excuse of protecting the Russian-speaking minorities?

Quite opposite. EU and US warned Putin about consequences and are waiting for a response. It has been unequivocally stated that Crimea is an integral part of Ukraine. Putin has a choice: to negotiate a withdrawal of his troops to barracks or be subjected to sanctions until this withdrawal will take place.

Once Russian troops are removed from Crimean streets, Ukrainian police with the help of Crimean Tatar quickly establish law and order in the region.

Disclamer. If Putin were a sane man, he would not think about any further military action now. However he's insane. He's actions are unpredictable. The principal indicator will be decision of Russian Parliament about incorporation of Crimea into Russia. This, not the "referendum", will be an open challenge to the West.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ASIP

[Big Guy]

The one thing we could and should do is invite Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia into NATO, along with countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Bulgaria. Anything else we could do, in areas such as Ukraine or Crimea, amount to orchestrated cries of anguish.

The membership of NATO does seem to change rather quickly. Just a point of clarification to assist the discussion in this thread;

The 28 Current NATO Members

Albania

Belgium

Bulgaria

Canada

Croatia

Czech Republic

Denmark

Estonia

France

Germany

Greece

Hungary

Iceland

Italy

Latvia

Lithuania

Luxembourg

Netherlands

Norway

Poland

Portugal

Romania

Slovakia

Slovenia

Spain

Turkey

United Kingdom

United States

Edited March 11, 2014 by Big Guy

[Bryan]

It's all going to the plan for the Russians. The news of Ukraine is slowly dieing down and little by little everyone seems to accept that the Crimea is now de facto a part of Russia.

And it is. Adjoining it to Ukraine was an artificial construct imposed by the old Soviet Union. Crimeans ARE Russians, and they've asked for Russia's help, so they're getting it.

What is going to happen next? Will Putin go after other former Soviet republics under the excuse of protecting the Russian-speaking minorities?

It could happen. It's not as if anyone will do anything about it other than complain. Nobody is prepared to go Nuclear over Latvia.

In a somewhat related development, there's also this:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/02/27/why-did-russia-send-spy-ship-to-cuba-no-word-from-communist-nation-as-armed-vessel-docks-in-havana/

A Russian spy ship turned up at a Havana port Wednesday, without any explanation from Cuba, as Moscow announced plans to expand its worldwide military presence.

Neither Communist Cuba nor its state media explained why the vessel visited the island, but its arrival was reminiscent of the Cold War era, when the former Soviet Union was Cuba’s biggest ally and benefactor.

Fourth one since December.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Bryan

[August1991]

Multicultural nations which have been forced to stick together have eventually crumbled. The similar thing with the EU and the Schengen-treaty which is a blunder of a lifetime that Finland signed to it. The results are all too visible already and who knows what the future will bring.

And yet, multicultural states are the world's future.

Technology (passenger ships and the Boeing 747) have reduced the cost of travel in the past 100 years or so. In the future, more people will travel, meet, marry, have children, raise them.

(If you think the Finnish language or your cold winters will protect you, think again. A State can impose a language but it cannot impose a cultural.)

[Rue]

In addition to the Russian Navy back in Cuban waters, its important for people to understand how big its navy port in Syria is and its pissing on the US which allowed it to woo Egypt and Saudi Arabia while sucking up to Iran at the same time. Putin is reassembling the old Soviet spehere of global influence or hegemony as some call it.

What did people expect with Putin? Did they expect the head of the KGB to be anything but a Stalinist? Did they really think he would embrace the West? He will embrace anyone who is anti West.

Putin is engage in a war against Chechnyan Muslims and Mulsim extremists in his own country and at the same time embraces Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. He plays them all off one another and these dummies fall for it. How does he do it-simple he just throws out the notion he is the only person on the planet now that can counter and keep the US in check.

This will get far worse before it gets better. Putin has already established his policy of rebuilding the Soviet Empire. Just read his speeches.

.

[Argus]

And it is. Adjoining it to Ukraine was an artificial construct imposed by the old Soviet Union. Crimeans ARE Russians, and they've asked for Russia's help, so they're getting it.

Do you have any evidence they asked for 'help' from the Russians? I mean, other than the Russians saying so? Help with what? They weren't in any sort of difficulties. Crimea has no land bridge with Russia. Everything going back and forth will have to travel by boat. Being part of Russia makes no real sense other than to help Putin with his small man syndrome.

[Bryan]

Do you have any evidence they asked for 'help' from the Russians? I mean, other than the Russians saying so? Help with what? They weren't in any sort of difficulties. Crimea has no land bridge with Russia. Everything going back and forth will have to travel by boat. Being part of Russia makes no real sense other than to help Putin with his small man syndrome.

What? They've been begging for Russia to help for several years. The independence movement has been going on since the early 90's. Being tacked on to Ukraine is not something they ever wanted.