Ukraine crisis

[Big Guy]

I just watched CBC coverage of a speech by the Russian ambassador to Canada Georgiy Mamedov. He has been around for a number of years and I find his presentations interesting and humorous. Georgiy took a pretty good run at NATO and the American and Canadian governments. He stated that Harper in not a serious player in that part of the world and basically dismissed most criticism of what Putin has done. His job is to spin what is happening and make Russia look good. He does his job well.

I listened to his speech in which he stated that in the Crimea, there were 20,000 Ukrainian troops based there. When the pro-Russians took power, these Ukrainian troops were given the option of going to another part of the Ukraine. 3,000 did so but about 17,000 stayed and joined then Russian forces. What does that tell you? This appears to be a fact that has not been disputed by Kiev. This to me is a crucial bit of information that may explain the views of the populace.

The CBC coverage completely ignored that statement but chose to focus on other questionable issues.

I am really starting to question the accuracy and impartiality of the information that we are getting from Western media pertaining to that region.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Big Guy

[Smallc]

What benefit would the western media have to spin the government position? I'm not sure I'm understanding.

[jbg]

I listened to his speech in which he stated that in the Crimea, there were 20,000 Ukrainian troops based there. When the pro-Russians took power, these Ukrainian troops were given the option of going to another part of the Ukraine. 3,000 did so but about 17,000 stayed and joined then Russian forces. What does that tell you? This appears to be a fact that has not been disputed by Kiev. This to me is a crucial bit of information that may explain the views of the populace.

That part of the world is long on territorial and political intrigue and short of accomplishments.

[bleeding heart]

Smallc, the Western media frequently spins in favour of Western government positions, at least in terms of foreign entanglements. I think Chomsky/Herman's "Propaganda model" is especially convincing.

[Shady]

Anyone else see some of Putin's victory day/parade in Crimea? Oh wait, probably CGI generated propaganda from western media. My bad.

[Shady]

What benefit would the western media have to spin the government position? I'm not sure I'm understanding.

That's because you're not a pro-Putin, anti-West useful idiot. Vladimir loves them. He couldn't operate as freely without them.

[bleeding heart]

Oh, well, sure; if someone has any criticism of the media's general handling of the ongoing crisis...they must be "useful idiots" for Putin, as well as "anti-West."

Anyway, it's interesting that you think all those who complain of "leftist bias" in the media are "useful idiots" and "anti-West." Because you can't have it both ways.

[-TSS-]

Today is the day of the illegal referendum in East-Ukraine.

[monty16]

Hey Big Guy, it's not just you who is asking some questions. The American people aren't buying this nonsense against Russia (Putin) either. They've been taken in too many times now.

And your remark about 17,000 Ukraine troops out of 20,000 really does say something about the people whose lives are at stake if the US/Nato start dropping bombs again!

[Shady]

Oh, well, sure; if someone has any criticism of the media's general handling of the ongoing crisis...they must be "useful idiots" for Putin, as well as "anti-West."

Anyway, it's interesting that you think all those who complain of "leftist bias" in the media are "useful idiots" and "anti-West." Because you can't have it both ways.

Kinda like you right? The western media is a propaganda machine, except when its reporting against the west, ie Abu Ghraib, secret prisons, rendition, NSA, etc. Then it's a-ok, right?

[monty16]

Is it o.k. on this forum to insult somebody like that Shady? I note that JBG has tried it with me already too. And I also note that RT is saying that 400 US mercenary soldiers have joined in with the Ukraine's illegal government to kill people who are siding with Russia. Makes one wonder what the US really has as an issue to cause them to ride their horse into this developing civil war?

[GostHacked]

Kinda like you right? The western media is a propaganda machine, except when its reporting against the west, ie Abu Ghraib, secret prisons, rendition, NSA, etc. Then it's a-ok, right?

It is propaganda. What has ruled the MSM headlines over the past couple months?

MH370.

Boko Haram.

The crisis in Ukraine is very important to all matters that are global. But yet the main focus is on just these things. Real news agencies would be putting the Ukraine crisis front and center as it should be. This is a possible WWIII scenario and we are more concerned about kidnapped girls in Africa? I am not downplaying that tragedy. It's deplorable.

Let's not forget that Syria is still in much turmoil, but that is not making headlines either. I guess when you see the Syrian forces clear out parts of Aleppo and Homs and get the rebels to turn tail, it's just not newsworthy.

There is propaganda on both sides. But some won't ever see it that way.

[monty16]

And GostHacked, don't forget to mention that the people are returning to their homes in Homs! A little off topic but it's beginning to look like the Syria, Iran, Russia, China alliance is safe for now.

It's becoming too late for the US to bomb Syria from 30,000' the way Wesley Clarke told us they had planned to do.

[GostHacked]

And GostHacked, don't forget to mention that the people are returning to their homes in Homs! A little off topic but it's beginning to look like the Syria, Iran, Russia, China alliance is safe for now.

It's becoming too late for the US to bomb Syria from 30,000' the way Wesley Clarke told us they had planned to do.

All alliances are for sale. Always have been.

[Smallc]

I just don't see why private corporations would benefit from spinning the government line. Russia is 100% in the wrong, and has been since the beginning of this.

[monty16]

Smallc, When 17,000 of the 20,000 Ukraine troops sided with Russia and the people of the Crimea sided with Russia in the referendum, doesn't it pose a problem with your logic?

Somehow the US/Nato has to deal with the problem of the people's apparent loyalties. It hardly ever works without fixing that perception.

[GostHacked]

I just don't see why private corporations would benefit from spinning the government line. Russia is 100% in the wrong, and has been since the beginning of this.

/facepalm. No one here claimed Russia was correct in their current actions. We are however putting it into some kind of context to understand the dynamics here.

Why would Lockheed Martin benefit from propaganda and .. war.

[monty16]

Russia is correct in their current actions.

See post #466.

[jbg]

Oh, well, sure; if someone has any criticism of the media's general handling of the ongoing crisis...they must be "useful idiots" for Putin, as well as "anti-West."

Anyway, it's interesting that you think all those who complain of "leftist bias" in the media are "useful idiots" and "anti-West." Because you can't have it both ways.

Smallc, When 17,000 of the 20,000 Ukraine troops sided with Russia and the people of the Crimea sided with Russia in the referendum, doesn't it pose a problem with your logic?

Somehow the US/Nato has to deal with the problem of the people's apparent loyalties. It hardly ever works without fixing that perception.

What I'd like to know about from you is why, when the West objects to Russian human rights abuses or quelling rebellions in satellites it is interference in "internal affairs" whereas that doesn't hold true when Russia foments rebellions in independent countries. How would Canada feel if the U.S. government funded Quebec or Alberta separatism? Edited May 11, 2014 by jbg

[bleeding heart]

Jbg, your question doesn't pertain to a single thing I've ever said on the subject.

What in the world makes you think I've been talking about "the West['s]...interference in [Russia's] internal affairs"?

I mean, you're making declarative claims...so undoubtedly you could back them up by quoting where I've even faintly hinted at it.

On the contrary, I have stated, repeatedly, that Russia's behaviour is completely unjustified, and that Putin is, and I quote, "A thug" and "a criminal."

Now, you and Shady can't even see such things when they're written....and why? Well, because I also tend to criticize Western behavior.

Totalitarians cannot abide 50% agreement...it's got to be closer to 100%, or else I'm "supporting the enemy," or other such childish and outlandish remarks.

Weak, brother. Weak.

[bleeding heart]

smallc, whether or not "corporations would benefit from spinning the government line" is arguably beside the point.

One of the most important aspects of journalism is the issue of "sourcing." the news media needs cheap and continual sources of information, ones that appear credible.

"Appear" being the operative word."

So the vast, the overwhelming amount of source material that journalists use comes from government and big business spokespeople. that's just the way it is.

So we get a huge amount of our information from an alignment of professionally-friendly, establishment sources, whose need to "stay on message" is more than profound...it's crucial. This is reported to us, stenography style, as "fact" from "credible sources" (ie those with a stake in getting their message out in a particular way).

Unfortunately, this is even more the case in matters of international and militaristic matters....precisely when we need more independence. But it's expensive to get "facts" elsewhere, so "officials" are relied upon; there is the possibility of intense research, but it takes time and effort which journalists often cannot spare, especially in meeting deadlines and keeping up with news cycles.

The farthest most "dissent" goes is partisanship...that is, ask the Opposition, or prefer one type of party-friendly "think tank" over one more aligned with the other party.

In other words, we get propaganda....sometimes even accurate, or semi-accurate propaganda, but more often there is deception...usually completely unwilling and ill-considered, I should add.

this is all rather starkly visible in the Ukraine matter....I personally, after pointing out numerous times that Putin is a "thug" and a "criminal" (I use quotation marks because "m quoting myself)...have been several times termed a "Putin-supporter" or "anti-Western."

I would go even further...those who willingly believe what they are told by people in power, especially over matters of international affairs, are "anti-West"...because they don't believe in accountability, and are even unaware--shockingly unaware--that one of the primary reasons for a democratic system is predicated on mistrust for people in Power.

A rational, historical distrust, I might add...and therefore useless, even hostile, to a system of government-friendly media propaganda.

Edited May 11, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Smallc]

So...what you're saying is all a bunch of guessing, then.

There is a huge difference between western media and Russian media. Western media wants to sell stories, and government untruths are a huge story. Your logic just doesn't seem to fit with what I've seen from the media.

[bleeding heart]

Government untruths are sometimes a huge story...and sometimes virtually ignored.

Especially--just as I've said--in matters of foreign entanglements.

How much interest have you seen in the major news media about the overthrow of the elected leader of Haiti--to be replaced by a West-friendly dictator? And the evidence of Canadian, American and French complicity in the circumstance? While it's true there is a lot of salient information missing....there's a lot more than what we know about what's happening in Ukraine.

What about east timor, with over a hundred thousand murdered...with the intentional and material help of Western governments? That's explicitly criminal, and in fact eclipses anything Putin is even currently accused of doing.

Does that not sound to you like a "huge story"?

But it wasn't...and still remains mostly under the radar.

I can go on interminably, if you like; the fact is you haven't considered any of these matters at all...which is your right, but it begs the question of why you'd pronounce on a subject about which you haven't thought about for five minutes.

Edited May 11, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Smallc]

Foreign entanglements?

Like...the NSA Spying Scandal?

Prison scandals in Iraq, and Afghanistan?

That's the just American media. Canadian media are more than happy to point out the things that Canada has done wrong around the Globe. You wouldn't know about the situation that happened in Haiti in 2004 if that weren't the case.

You're trying to create a false equivalency here. There is always more to a situation than we know, but it isn't because of western propaganda, it's because people paying for the content just don't care, and it won't sell 'papers'.

[Smallc]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-national-guardsmen-fire-into-crowd-1.2638607

This is the top story on CBC news. It seems that we're hearing from both sides of the issue after all.