Ukraine crisis

ASIP · July 10, 2014

The battle continues with ethnic ties superseding line on a map. Those oblasts in East Ukraine will remain as a kind of buffer between Kiev and Moscow. Even if Kiev takes those areas militarily I believe the continuing ethnic unrest would not be worth the troops and money to keep the occupants in line with Kiev. It would be interesting to see if then the UN would put peace keepers in that area if asked.

There is no any ethnic aspect in the fighting. There is no need for UN peace keepers. If Ukraine will manage to close its border with Russia from permanent supply of militants, ammunition and heavy arms, the conflict will die within a couple of weeks. Ordinary people are tired of hardship brought by pro-Russian separatists and Russian militants.

I would recommend you to look at the map. Those two oblasts in no way can be a buffer between Kiev and Moscow. Purely geographically. The rebels hold just an approx. 200-km wide strip from the border westward. The "buffer" was not the Putin's goal. The goal was a land corridor to Crimea. Without a link to Russia, Crimea cannot develop economically. This is why Soviet government reassigned administrative subordination of Crimea to Ukraine.

ASIP · July 10, 2014

Russian intellience service kidnaps Ukrainian pilot.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28232966

Actually, the girl is not a pilot. Nevertheless, she's a very interesting person. A real professional soldier.

Her example displays a direct link between Kremlin and militants in Eastern Ukraine.

Big Guy · July 10, 2014

...

Ordinary people are tired of hardship brought by pro-Russian separatists and Russian militants.

...

I cannot believe that the areas currently in control of the rebels or insurgents or liberators or terrorists ... could have been taken and still in control of the anti Kiev forces without at least the tacit support of the local population. That being the case, if Kiev does retake control it is going to have all kinds of problems trying to maintain it.

If the majority of the local population does not support Kiev then the Kiev forces will be treated as occupiers. We have seen the results of an area being kept under the control of occupiers. The occupation does not last very long and the occupation becomes very expensive in blood and treasure. My understanding is that the Kiev controlled parts of the Ukraine have a shortage of both.

ASIP · July 10, 2014

I cannot believe that the areas currently in control of the rebels or insurgents or liberators or terrorists ... could have been taken and still in control of the anti Kiev forces without at least the tacit support of the local population. That being the case, if Kiev does retake control it is going to have all kinds of problems trying to maintain it.

If the majority of the local population does not support Kiev then the Kiev forces will be treated as occupiers. We have seen the results of an area being kept under the control of occupiers. The occupation does not last very long and the occupation becomes very expensive in blood and treasure. My understanding is that the Kiev controlled parts of the Ukraine have a shortage of both.

Sure, there is some local support for the separatists. However, in the over 6-million people region separatists manage to assemble about 2,000 men militia. This is a bullet-proof fact. There is no popular support for the separatists. Even Putin has accepted that. You can find this number of freaks and criminals in any country of this size. Their relative longevity is due to that they keep 2 million civilian people hostages. They hide in cities, behind women and children. They are terrorist.

Another factor is that the Ukrainian army and national security forces have been deliberately destroyed by the pro-Russian government for the last four years. In this April it became clear that Ukraine does not have an army. The army is being created right now, in the situation of the terrorist attack of unprecedented scale. Not a single country has ever fought this type of war. Israel is the closest example, but it is still not a match to that Ukraine is encountering.

Your assertion of "occupation" has nothing to do to reality. Ukrainian people is cleaning their land from a plague brought from Russia.

alexmac · July 10, 2014

Sure, there is some local support for the separatists. However, in the over 6-million people region separatists manage to assemble about 2,000 men militia. This is a bullet-proof fact. There is no popular support for the separatists. Even Putin has accepted that. You can find this number of freaks and criminals in any country of this size. Their relative longevity is due to that they keep 2 million civilian people hostages. They hide in cities, behind women and children. They are terrorist.

Another factor is that the Ukrainian army and national security forces have been deliberately destroyed by the pro-Russian government for the last four years. In this April it became clear that Ukraine does not have an army. The army is being created right now, in the situation of the terrorist attack of unprecedented scale. Not a single country has ever fought this type of war. Israel is the closest example, but it is still not a match to that Ukraine is encountering.

Your assertion of "occupation" has nothing to do to reality. Ukrainian people is cleaning their land from a plague brought from Russia.

Well sir we just rented out our apartment in Kyiv to a family from Lugansk. They were driven from the city by Russians pretending to be Ukrainian seperatists , no big surprise there or at least it should not be to anyone. They have 2 children who are 5 and 9 , there Uncle was killed by the Russians pretending to be Ukrainian . Lots of stories like this .

Russia is a third world country dressed as a 9 , no infrastructure , criminals in power and lots of money. Most in Russia do not get to hear of what really happens as they are censored "HEAVILY". The one thing they rely on is that they use the USA as an example to do what they are doing ,justify , yes we kill lots of civillians but look at what the US does. Putin is a modern day Stalin and as in past history the only thing being done is harsh language is being exchanged. Here in Canada we still allow high level and rich Russians in even after Harper spoke so strongly against Putin so what is the cost to Russia for invading ?

This is the start of a long conflict there and if it is not dealt with we will be drawn into another cold war with higher stakes.,

Edited July 10, 2014 by Charles Anthony
fixed malformed quote

monty16 · July 10, 2014

If the US/Nato backs off there will be no problem. There wasn't one until they decided to encroach further of Russia. Putin and Russia are the good guys and that's clearly evident in that it's the US that is starting all the wars in the ME now. The biggest problem for the US is that in the 21st. century, Russia and China are just not going to let the US get away with much more of it. The US reign of terror is over because the US has lost most of it's economic clout over the world.

Argus · July 10, 2014

If the US/Nato backs off there will be no problem. There wasn't one until they decided to encroach further of Russia. Putin and Russia are the good guys and that's clearly evident in that it's the US that is starting all the wars in the ME now.

There's actually not a shred of evidence the US has started ANY wars in the ME of late, but don't let that bother you.

monty16 · July 11, 2014

All the wars started in the ME have been either started by the US or have something to do with US aggression in the ME. Your ridiculous shreds aside.

Argus · July 11, 2014

All the wars started in the ME have been either started by the US or have something to do with US aggression in the ME. Your ridiculous shreds aside.

Well, that's an opinion, but that's all it is. And it's the opinion of someone who hates the America, so a biased opinion. Not a lot of value to that.

GostHacked · July 12, 2014

Well, that's an opinion, but that's all it is. And it's the opinion of someone who hates the America, so a biased opinion. Not a lot of value to that.

I've only showed in several other threads, the amount of US support for 'rebels' in Syria (aka Al-Queda) and abroad. The US's hands are definitely in the pie. The US may not have started this new war, but they sure are helping perpetuate it.

Argus · July 12, 2014

I've only showed in several other threads, the amount of US support for 'rebels' in Syria (aka Al-Queda) and abroad. The US's hands are definitely in the pie. The US may not have started this new war, but they sure are helping perpetuate it.

The US and a lot of other western democracies, was under pressure to support the rebels against an autocratic dictator. But as you say, they certainly didn't start the fighting, and have been pretty clearly reluctant to get involved. Whatever aid they sent was minor and specifically sent to secular groups.

GostHacked · July 13, 2014

The US and a lot of other western democracies, was under pressure to support the rebels against an autocratic dictator. But as you say, they certainly didn't start the fighting, and have been pretty clearly reluctant to get involved. Whatever aid they sent was minor and specifically sent to secular groups.

Minor aid? What about Turkey providing a base of operations for these rebels? If that move undermined the US/NATO operations then it would not have been allowed. Material support plus training plus a base of operations. That seems a little more than involved to me.

The US is reluctant to send in their own troops because the casualties are going to be very high.

But you have both sides doing proxy stuff in Ukraine. One side will support a rebel uprising and the other will try to crush it. I just have a hard time sorting out who the real bad guys are. Nothing is very clear and the reports we get via the media are not really telling us everything either.

I would hope for all the fighting to stop, but people in power have a seemingly constant urge for war.

Argus · July 14, 2014

Minor aid? What about Turkey providing a base of operations for these rebels?

I doubt the US has that much control over what Turkey's Islamist government does.

St. Boo · July 15, 2014

Is it still about Ukraine? oh, what the hell..

St. Boo · July 15, 2014

Sorry, time difference.

GostHacked · July 15, 2014

I doubt the US has that much control over what Turkey's Islamist government does.

IN terms of NATO and the US's national security policies, I would say they do.

Smallc · July 15, 2014

Turkey does what it wants, especially lately.

GostHacked · July 15, 2014

Turkey does what it wants, especially lately.

Follow the money.

Smallc · July 15, 2014

It's more about religion than anything.

GostHacked · July 15, 2014

It's more about religion than anything.

On the level of the rebel/freedom fighter yes. To their leadership of these groups it might be about religion. Even if they think it is about religion, you have funding from the west to back their ideology up. And the reasons to back them up are NOT based in religion. The west supports one side to pit it against the other side. In this case, the divisions between Sunnis and Shiites are being exploited to further foreign policies of the west. NATO to be more specific. Muslims are being used as pawns on both sides. When they wake up to this fact, you are going to see a huge retaliation in western countries by these people via terror incidents. IN other words, prepare for blowback. And that warning comes from Cheney himself in recent interviews regarding ISIS and such. A crisis in which he directly had a hand in creating, but like others here, prefer to blame Obama for not correcting the mistakes of Bush and Cheney.

So if Cheney is warning that major terror attacks will happen in the USA, I'd take note of it.

It may be a catalyst to reunify some of the different factions within Islam. If that happens, it will be a huge problem. I'd be pissed too if I found out the people funding me were simply using me as a pawn while they lie right to my face about the fact. I'd no longer want to fight my 'brother', but the foreign intervention that has been going on for decades.

See that was what Bin Laden was saying all along. And guess where some of HIS funding came from?

However what is happening in Ukraine is very similar but you don't have the Islamic factions fighting each other. You have Russians and Ukrainians and a wedge called Crimea. The similarity here is that those funding the rebels in Ukraine are the same people who fund the rebel terror groups in places like Syria and Iraq.

-TSS- · July 15, 2014

It could be time for bold moves in Ukraine as the world-attention is once again focused on the Middle-East conflict.

Merkuri · July 16, 2014

The Canadian government proposes to deliver nearly 20 combat aircraft CF-18A to the Ukrainian military.

The information appeared on social networks. These 20 aircraft can be delivered to the Ukrainian side for free, as they had been written off from service at the Air Forces of Canada. That will help the Ukrainian government kill more separatist people in their eastern cities.

http://voicesevas.ru/img/2d0ed76db9f829a07cf2d29772045f10.jpg

jbg · July 16, 2014

The Canadian government proposes to deliver nearly 20 combat aircraft CF-18A to the Ukrainian military.

The information appeared on social networks. These 20 aircraft can be delivered to the Ukrainian side for free, as they had been written off from service at the Air Forces of Canada. That will help the Ukrainian government kill more separatist people in their eastern cities.

http://voicesevas.ru/img/2d0ed76db9f829a07cf2d29772045f10.jpg

How about less pejoratively, "to fight rebels supported by another country"?