Ukraine crisis

[TimG]

But that is not usually the case. Our propaganda is more insidious...in large part because it is believed by the sincere and professional journalists who are its purveyors.

The IPCC is perhaps the best illustration of Western propaganda. It is a UN organization which is supposed to tasked with assessing the science but is really only interested in setting a new international wealth distribution scheme managed by the UN. It is supported by thousands of people that truly "believe" its message. The Western media systematically vilifies and attacks anyone who questions its premise or points out evidence that contradicts its narrative.

Of course, the biggest irony will be the posters lecturing us on this thread about how the media lies to us will swear that when it comes to the IPCC and the climate treaty process the media is presenting nothing but the truth.

Edited April 17, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Perhaps you guys should start a new thread on media propaganda. This is suppose to be about Putin's invasion and annexation of Crimea, and his subsequent actions in eastern Ukraine. Unless of course you're denying the events.

No I disagree with you. Sorry man.

The way we perceive the events unfolding in the Ukraine crisis has a lot to do with the quality of info delivered by the media. Also the media has a strong influence in the direction of our debate here.

Discussing the media's role in this debate is very relevant and does not qualify as thread drift in my opinion. Not what I have read so far.

WWWTT

[bleeding heart]

No, there are far more obvious illustrations of propaganda. Most of them involve violence or subversion by Western governments elsewhere (notably in developing countries). This makes sense, because propaganda's efficacy is hugely enhanced by things such as nationalism, and indoctrinated beleifs in the benevolence of one's own society in its foreign dealings.

[bleeding heart]

Oh, and Shady...after I've schooled you so thoroughly in something that I know far more about than you do--that is, my own opinion--are you really going to coyly "ask" whether I'm "denying the events"?

I already re-posted, through quotations, my own remarks on the Russian incursions. My remarks are unambiguous.

[TimG]

No, there are far more obvious illustrations of propaganda. Most of them involve violence or subversion by Western governments elsewhere (notably in developing countries). This makes sense, because propaganda's efficacy is hugely enhanced by things such as nationalism, and indoctrinated beleifs in the benevolence of one's own society in its foreign dealings.

No - that is just the narrative you want to believe because it suits your own prejudices. It is no more truthful the stuff the Russians put out (meaning there is some truth but a lot of exaggerations and outright falsehoods mashed together to create a narrative which appeals to people who are preconditioned to believe such narratives). Edited April 17, 2014 by TimG

[bleeding heart]

Uh, no, it is your prejudices which make you think your pet peeve is "the best illustration of Western propaganda," a preposterous stance. Hell, Indonesia and East Timor alone (under a single regime) constitutes one of the worst paroxysms of mass murder since the Holocaust....and barely any mainstream journalists, and not one single President or Prime Minister, has managed to point out that the monumental death toll is a direct result of Western complicity (the US and UK far in the lead, perhaps predictably)...and that it was wholly intentional, with material aid to ensure that the murders, rapes, starvation etc continued.

And when journalists do speak of it, they usually talk about the way the West "looked away" as it was all occurring....which is the literal opposite of the truth.

Now, Tim, you didn't even know about this--one of the great crimes--and you're a smart and knowledgeable man. So what does that tell you about propaganda?

[TimG]

Hell, Indonesia and East Timor alone (under a single regime) constitutes one of the worst paroxysms of mass murder since the Holocaust...

So you say. But is that the truth or just a narrative built on some facts, a lot of exaggerations and outright lies?

Mass society requires narratives for communication. Everyone with any story to tell constructs narratives and ALL narratives are largely fiction created from some true facts. You claim that you know that this narrative is true but how do you really know? Why are your sources any more trustworthy than the ones you criticize?

You claim to have knowledge of things which others don't because of "propaganda". I say you only know a narrative which has some unknown element of truth because it confirms your prejudices and validates your beliefs.

BTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_invasion_of_East_Timor

The UN's Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor estimated the number of deaths during the occupation from famine and violence to be between 90,800 and 202,600 including between 17,600 and 19,600 violent deaths or disappearances, out of a 1999 population of approximately 823,386. The truth commission held Indonesian forces responsible for about 70% of the violent killings.[55][56][57]

20K dead from violence and you claim it was "worst paroxysms of mass murder since the Holocaust"? You could not have picked a better example of how your your own views are shaped by constructed narratives Edited April 17, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Here's a link I found in regards to the Jewish people in the Ukraine

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117415/relax-ukraine-not-ordering-its-jews-register

Take it for what it is.

WWWTT

[bleeding heart]

Tim, I am just now going to answer you, but in deference to Shady's request, I'm moving the discussion into the "Propaganda on Ukraine" thread, also here in "The Rest of the World" topics.

[WWWTT]

The squadron is going to Belgium or Poland, not Ukraine. More warmongering from Canada, eh ?

No it's actually from a NATO request, here's the link

http://cbc.sh/SR4hMig

Are you saying that Canada would do something without the permission of NATO? You got to be freekin joking?!?!?!

We don't even have a vehicle of any kind to send to help in the search for that missing Malaysian flight! Got lots of stupid freekin bombs and weapons to kill people with though! Thanks Harper=War pig!

WWWTT

[Argus]

So, for example, when the NYTimes decides that it's not going to call waterboarding "torture" anymore...this coincided, unsurprisingly, with revelations of the US committing the act.

And yet, all the American media were fixated on the reports from Abu Ghraib, and there have been innumerable other stories about alleged mistreatment in Cuba, Afghanistan and other places by American intelligence and military.

So how many stories do you think the Russian media does today on Russian mistreatement of prisoners? Do you think RT or Pravda, or any other major Russian news organization is going to admit that the torture, beatings and sexual abuse is endemic in Russian prisons?

There is a difference between a lazy media, and a media owned lock, stock and barrel by an authoritarian government. And we saw that immediately in Crimea, when one of the first things done by the 'separatists' was to close down all independant media outlets.

[bleeding heart]

But I am not saying, nor have ever said, that Russian media isn't full of deceitful and distorted propaganda. I said explicitly that it IS. Unambiguously.

I also said that Russian propaganda was cruder...in part due to the fact that their propaganda is, presumably, usually intentionally propaganda, whereas ours (with some notable exceptions) is more often than not unintentional...or least complicated by several inherited and internalized factors...such as, for example, patriotism, which makes people stupid, and makes for poor reporting.

And it's not a matter of a "lazy media" to alter its editorial and journalistic policy on word-usage in precise accord with the behavior of its government. "Laziness" does not imply such active agency. A case like that is either intentionally-misleading propaganda...or simple servility. I couldn't say which.

Edited April 18, 2014 by bleeding heart

[-TSS-]

Let's nit forget either that what today is West Ukraine used to be territory of Poland until WWII.

[WWWTT]

Here's another explanation on the US interest in all of this.

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2014/04/the-obama-game-is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/

looks like this is all about using the US dollar.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

And here's is more back up!

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11730#.U1CQKBE-do4.facebook

Looks like the Russians are going to rip this one way open soon!

Wonder what the US is going to do?

I'm thinking the US is trying to back track, realizing there plan isn't working.

Just hope that Steven "W.P." Harper doesn't do something we're all going to regret here in Canada!

WWWTT

[jbg]

More and more administrative sites in more and more cities in Eastern Ukraine are being taken over by anti-Kiev protestors. Perhaps it is time for the UN to send in peace keeping troops to organize and supervise referendums in each Oblast to ascertain to desire of the majority in each “province” . The general line separating the different points of view appear to run along the old pre-1939 annexation of territory to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

Why would Kiev want to hold on to territory in which the majority of people wanted out of Ukraine either as an independent or part of Russia.

With the UN involved perhaps we could get an accurate idea of the feelings of the population.

Under current conditions, if NATO gets involved, I hope that Canada does not get drawn into this confused conflict.

I fully agree. Maybe field some sort of Goldstone Commission to investigate.

Oops, wrong country, not Israel. If Russia wants to behave badly, so be it.

[Argus]

Here's another explanation on the US interest in all of this.

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2014/04/the-obama-game-is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/

looks like this is all about using the US dollar.

WWWTT

No, it actually doesn't look like that at all. But thanks for the comedy interlude.

[-TSS-]

The blunt truth is that were it not for its nuclear capability Russia would be internationally like Bangladesh, in other words, a totally unimportant and insignificant country. Little more important than Finland. After all, the Russian total GDP is at the same level as that of the Netherlands, a country with 1/10 of the population compared to Russia.

[Smallc]

The blunt truth is that were it not for its nuclear capability Russia would be internationally like Bangladesh, in other words, a totally unimportant and insignificant country. Little more important than Finland. After all, the Russian total GDP is at the same level as that of the Netherlands, a country with 1/10 of the population compared to Russia.

Russia's GDP is small per person, but it is between Canada and the UK in terms of size, so not as small as you say.

[-TSS-]

Russia's GDP is small per person, but it is between Canada and the UK in terms of size, so not as small as you say.

I stand corrected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

But I blame our Prime Minister Katainen who made the remark how Russia isn't that important and how their GDP is the size of the Netherlands, ie a middle-sized country.

[Shady]

And yet, all the American media were fixated on the reports from Abu Ghraib, and there have been innumerable other stories about alleged mistreatment in Cuba, Afghanistan and other places by American intelligence and military.

So how many stories do you think the Russian media does today on Russian mistreatement of prisoners? Do you think RT or Pravda, or any other major Russian news organization is going to admit that the torture, beatings and sexual abuse is endemic in Russian prisons?

There is a difference between a lazy media, and a media owned lock, stock and barrel by an authoritarian government. And we saw that immediately in Crimea, when one of the first things done by the 'separatists' was to close down all independant media outlets.

Exactly. The American media also reported on CIA secret prisons and the rendition process.

[eyeball]

There is no moral or ethical difference between governments that lie or torture people. None whatsoever.

[Argus]

There is no moral or ethical difference between governments that lie or torture people. None whatsoever.

Everyone lies. Everyone. Torture? Define torture. I understand that among the torture instruments the CIA uses is repeatedly playing a song from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'd say there's a moral difference between that and scooping people's eyeballs out with a hot spoon...

Edited April 20, 2014 by Argus

[eyeball]

Everyone lies. Everyone.

Which makes no difference.

Torture? Define torture.

Apologetics.

[-TSS-]

It's the legacy of the Soviet Union that in these break-away republics there are a lot of Russian-speaking people. Ukraine has always been known to be a tinderbox which will blow sooner or later. If the Baltic States were not NATO-members Russai would have invaded them a long time ago to "protect" the Russians living there.

When Estonia became independent again in 1991 they espoused a continuation-theory instead of declaring independence. That meant that their interpretation was that the Russian invasion and subsequent occupation of Estonia for 51 years was illegal so they returned to the rule of law and restored independence which was declared in 1918.

Semantics? Perhaps but a major difference was to be gained by this. Under that interpretation Estonians citizens were to be those who were citizens in 1940 and those people's descendants. All other were foreigners. That may be a bit too harsh for the Russian-speaking population which constituted 33% of the population. Many people who were born in the country and their parents were born in the and their grand-parents were forced to move into the country, they were all declared as foreigners.

Many of these people have become stateless as they are either unwilling to apply for Estonian citizenship or don't pass the rather difficult language-test which is a precondition on gaining citizenship, Russia won't accept those people as its citizens and those people are citizens of the Soviet Union, a country which no longer exists.