Confederate Flag aka Rebel Flag aka Flag of St. Andrews

[Remiel]

A great number of folks in states affected by the Civil War are re-creationist/reenactors rather than racists. One's great grandfather might in fact have been in the 33rd Virginia or the 20th Maine, for example.

I was kind of working of the assumption that certain uses were obvious exceptions. If you are just playing a part, either as a re-enactor or an actor, then you almost certainly get a pass.

[DogOnPorch]

I was kind of working of the assumption that certain uses were obvious exceptions. If you are just playing a part, either as a re-enactor or an actor, then you almost certainly get a pass.

Yes...I just watched an extended version of Gettysburg where 15,000 of them were extras. Quite spectacular.

[bush_cheney2004]

I was kind of working of the assumption that certain uses were obvious exceptions. If you are just playing a part, either as a re-enactor or an actor, then you almost certainly get a pass.

Anybody capable of more objective thinking and an understanding of historical context should get a pass.

[Remiel]

This is not true, as many scientific and engineering achievements are associated with Nazism's rule in Germany. It's just that such things are not discussed out of political correctness. But it's hard to hide something like the impact of "Werner von Braun" and Nazi party support for his work.

Technological prowess is something we associate with the Germans in general or specific inventors, not specific regimes. When I think "AK-47" I do not tend to credit the Soviets, I tend to credit it to the specific ingenious of Kalashnikov.

[DogOnPorch]

Anybody capable of more objective thinking and an understanding of historical context should get a pass.

Certainly. As I pointed out to another poster, the average Rebel soldier wasn't fighting to uphold slavery. Even General Lee wasn't fighting to keep slaves...his wife was an abolitionist...lol.

[Michael's input]

[quote name="Remiel" post="933347"

The Nazi flag, on the other hand, has absolutely nothing good associated with it, and the Confederacy just did not last long enough for its flag to come to define much other than the bad.

Well actually the Nazi symbol came out of Tibet which has and had nothing to do with Germans that is with exception on how the Nazi's used it. Therefore how might someone say nothing good was ever associated with it. But most only see the one side and are either blind or oblivious with the other side.

And with the confederate flag what was bad? After all the war wasn't about slavery as many believe but was about freedom out of the constitution on industrial trade which started in South Carolina. Just like today many are fighting the government on constitutional rights that they want to take away or just do what they want regardless of what the constitution says.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Michael's input

[bush_cheney2004]

Technological prowess is something we associate with the Germans in general or specific inventors, not specific regimes. When I think "AK-47" I do not tend to credit the Soviets, I tend to credit it to the specific ingenious of Kalashnikov.

This is folly, as specific and determined scientific and engineering development would not have occurred as quickly without the urgency of Nazi Germany's goals and ultimately, fight for survival. Even their gas cans were better.

[kimmy]

This is not true, as many scientific and engineering achievements are associated with Nazism's rule in Germany. It's just that such things are not discussed out of political correctness. But it's hard to hide something like the impact of "Werner von Braun" and Nazi party support for his work.

That might be true, but if you put a Nazi flag on your house or a swastika tattoo on your arm, nobody is going to think "hey, that guy must support scientific achievement!"

Regardless what else happened under the Nazis, that symbol is irrevocably linked to the mass extermination of Jews and other "undesirables".

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

That might be true, but if you put a Nazi flag on your house or a swastika tattoo on your arm, nobody is going to think "hey, that guy must support scientific achievement!"

Regardless what else happened under the Nazis, that symbol is irrevocably linked to the mass extermination of Jews and other "undesirables".

To those who are so fixated that may be the case, but I personally kept a photo of Admiral Doenitz (full uniform with Nazi insignia) on my desk and stateroom locker as a reminder of what I was doing as a naval officer. Anybody with a brain got it...and respected it.

President Eisenhower came home from the war with a big ass "Autobahn" on his mind. Perhaps you have traveled on it.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

That might be true, but if you put a Nazi flag on your house or a swastika tattoo on your arm, nobody is going to think "hey, that guy must support scientific achievement!"

Regardless what else happened under the Nazis, that symbol is irrevocably linked to the mass extermination of Jews and other "undesirables".

-k

Of course. The very nature of WW2 makes the Swastika a horrible symbol. The US Civil War, at least, was fought with a vestige of chivalry at least for the first three years. After that, it started looking more like a modern war with all its trappings...

[DogOnPorch]

To those who are so fixated that may be the case, but I personally kept a photo of Admiral Doenitz (full uniform with Nazi insignia) on my desk and stateroom locker as a reminder of what I was doing as a naval officer. Anybody with a brain got it...and respected it.

Build only effective ships...like U-Boats.

[bush_cheney2004]

Build only effective ships...like U-Boats.

I think the Rebs even built an "ironclad".

Build U-boats and sink everything Japanese in the Pacific.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

I think the Rebs even built an "ironclad".

Several...my fav was the one they made from rails, the Arkansas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Arkansas

Edited December 2, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[Michael's input]

I have mixed feelings on this. kimmy pretty much has her finger on one important point, it may not be so much that flying the flag makes you racist so much as people who do all the other things make one racist are much more highly correlated to flying the flag. On the other hand, if you ask whether flying the Nazi flag makes you a racist...

bc4 rightly points out that atrocities have been committed under the American and Canadian flags, but I am not sure that this has all the necessary support of a good counter-argument. Much, much more has been done under those flags that was not inherently bad. They have both a positive legacy and a negative one. The Nazi flag, on the other hand, has absolutely nothing good associated with it, and the Confederacy just did not last long enough for its flag to come to define much other than the bad.

Well actually the Nazi symbolcame out of Tibet which has and had nothing to do with Germans that is with exception on how the Nazi's used it. Therefore how might someone say nothing good was ever associated with it. But most only see the one side and are either blind or oblivious with the other side.

And with the confederate flag what was bad? After all the war wasn't about slavery as many believe but was about freedom out of the constitution on industrial trade which started in South Carolina. Just like today many are fighting the government on constitutional rights that they want to take away or just do what they want regardless of what the constitution says.

[DogOnPorch]

While slavery was an issue in the new border states it was the export of King Cotton that led to the actual fighting. Lincoln did the clever move of making the war about slavery in order to keep the British on their side of the Pond where they belonged.

[cybercoma]

What, may I ask, is the symbolism and historical context?

Read your OP. I think you know exactly what symbolism it carries for many people, right or wrong.

[DogOnPorch]

Read your OP. I think you know exactly what symbolism it carries for many people, right or wrong.

Agreement. The red-neck thing holds true in Canada. Most Canadians don't know their Shilohs from their Chickamaugas even at musket point.

Edited December 2, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Should people in the UK and other countries of the Commonwealth hate this flag because of its historical meaning ?

[DogOnPorch]

Should people in the UK and other countries of the Commonwealth hate this flag because of its historical meaning ?

Craig Ferguson has it on his arm...so no.

Edited December 2, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Craig Ferguson has it on his arm...so no.

You mean this one ?

[DogOnPorch]

That's 'er. He loves America.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's 'er. He loves America.

I guess he certainly does....that's hard core. All the more reason to let the Rebs and Rednecks have Stars and Bars tatoos and pickup truck sunscreens.

Edited December 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

I guess he certainly does....that's hard core. All the more reason to let the Rebs and Rednecks have Stars and Bars tattoos and pickup truck sunscreens.

Perhaps they should have to answer a skill testing question beforehand. Jackson commanded what Army? Who won Second Bull Run? What part of China was General Lee from?

[Michael's input]

While slavery was an issue in the new border states it was the export of King Cotton that led to the actual fighting. Lincoln did the clever move of making the war about slavery in order to keep the British on their side of the Pond where they belonged.

And it was Lincoln who signed a bill to have African slaves sent back to Africa. During the time of sending them back many ship captains became greedy by dropping then off of islands such as Jamaica to make a long trip short and make more money. Hence all the blacks on the islands.

Does that make Honest Abe racist?

The government has tried to distort history far too much and has accomplished in many ways.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Michael's input

[DogOnPorch]

The modern use of 'racist' doesn't really apply to 1860. By our standards, everybody was.