USA Flies Through China Airspace

[Guest Derek L]

That is the spin now - Chinese bloggers were up in arms about the "humiliation".

More of a demonstration that the Chinese don’t have the ability to police their new air defence zone against a portion of the US nuclear deterrent……and a portion of 1950s vintage…

So what? Anyone who wants to spend enough money could do it with the widely available technology.

Exactly......I for one welcome China to the 1960s.......

[TimG]

Ah the Mao thing again. Got news for you, when I visited Mao's ancestral home near the city of Changsha in Hunan province, there was literally thousands of people there that day to pay their respects to one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century!

Which goes to show how effective propaganda is (especially when the state prohibits dissenting views from being aired) and why you would be wrong to be a mindless cheerleader for China. The fact that former US presidents are not deified is a sign that free speech is allowing people to get an honest picture of their leaders which is unequivocally a good thing.

But it sounds like that China is getting the attention of a lot of people crying foul, they must be doing something right then!

Spoken like a true warmonger. You don't care about the facts you just want to cheer for your "team". Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[venson]

South Korea, Japan and the United States are never going to recognise this zone as legitimate and will most likely continue to test it until the Chinese back down. They aren't brave enough to shoot down an intruding aircraft.

[The_Squid]

Got news for you, when I visited Mao's ancestral home near the city of Changsha in Hunan province, there was literally thousands of people there that day to pay their respects to one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century!

So how many visit Reagans/Nixon's grave? Ya thought so!

Wow...

No leader deserves to be worshipped, especially one like Mao. Yes, propoganda works... hence theworshipping of the illustrious leader... the same one who took Tibet and killed and terrorized thousands doing so....

I won't bother listing the many attrocities of Mao... that one should be enough to show that he is in no way "great".

[waldo]

Can you give me one example where the US established an ADIZ over territory claimed by another country without permission of that country? Only China has done that which makes China the aggressor.

both the Japanese and Korean ADIZ were established by the U.S... established during/after wars and kept intact all these years after being transferred back to Japan/Korea. Both Japan and Korea have extended... unilaterally extended... on those transferred ADIZ. Aggressor's, hey?

.

[Guest Derek L]

A Chinese Freudian slip?

http://theweek.com/article/index/254228/why-does-chinas-moon-rover-exhibit-show-a-nuclear-mushroom-cloud-over-europe

China has made a major diplomatic faux pas by illustrating its Moon Rover exhibit with a stock image of a nuclear mushroom cloud over Europe.

While it's probably just an embarrassing error, it's still an unsettling image given the Chinese government's recent statements concerning plans to build a missile base on the Moon.

And the reference to the Chinese musings over establishing a lunar base for nuclear weapons:

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20131203000106

He added that the moon is the Earth's only natural satellite, and it can be transformed into a deadly weapon. Like the Death Star in Star Wars, the moon could hypothetically be used as a military battle station and ballistic missiles could be launched against any military target on Earth.

Why do I have visions of a Chinese Dr Evil:

A stark difference to this guy's words:

[bush_cheney2004]

A Chinese Freudian slip?

The background appears to have been lifted from wallpaper art called "Earth Nuke", possibly Moscow as ground zero.

http://wallpafer.com/wp-content/uploads/earth_nuke_droid_wallpaper.png

Edited December 18, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[bleeding heart]

TimG

Which goes to show how effective propaganda is (especially when the state prohibits dissenting views from being aired)

I disagree. A good argument can be made that propaganda is more effective in the relatively-more-free societies.

If we look at the history of propaganda in the modern-to-contemporary sense, starting with Edward Bernays and Walter Lippman, the rise of the PR industry and its relationship with (highly effective) advertising techniques, we get quite an education.

Hell, "propaganda" as we generally discuss the term is roughly an invention of the Anglo democracies....its methods heavily borrowed from us by the Nazis and the Soviets.

[Bonam]

So what? Anyone who wants to spend enough money could do it with the widely available technology.

So what? While the US can't even launch people into space anymore and is killing off space exploration programs left and right, China's space program is on the rise. It is now one of only two countries that can put people into space, and only the third country to land a rover on the Moon. I see space exploration enthusiasts on forums and among people I know all cheering on China while being embarrassed at their own country. Another few years and we may start to see a brain drain of the brightest aerospace engineers from Western countries to China.

[GostHacked]

So what? While the US can't even launch people into space anymore and is killing off space exploration programs left and right, China's space program is on the rise. It is now one of only two countries that can put people into space, and only the third country to land a rover on the Moon. I see space exploration enthusiasts on forums and among people I know all cheering on China while being embarrassed at their own country. Another few years and we may start to see a brain drain of the brightest aerospace engineers from Western countries to China.

I'd say that is happening already. China has been able to obtain through trade some very high tech stuff. Either through deals or stealing, China in the past 10 years has been quickly rising in the amount of military tech they are throwing around. A carrier, a stealth fighter, a moon rover, orbiting earth missions. They have the means and the manpower to make a huge army very fast.

[bush_cheney2004]

So what? While the US can't even launch people into space anymore and is killing off space exploration programs left and right, China's space program is on the rise.

Meh....the "space program" has always been the grand cover story for military and intelligence gathering payloads. That's exactly what China is doing as well. Last year, Russia put more payloads into orbit than China and the U.S.

[Bonam]

Meh....the "space program" has always been the grand cover story for military and intelligence gathering payloads. That's exactly what China is doing as well. Last year, Russia put more payloads into orbit than China and the U.S.

Yep. When it comes to the space program, it's now Russia > China > US, whereas it used to be US > Russia > China. And yes, all these countries spend a significant amount on military satellites, which there is nothing wrong with.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yep. When it comes to the space program, it's now Russia > China > US, whereas it used to be US > Russia > China. And yes, all these countries spend a significant amount on military satellites, which there is nothing wrong with.

Russia was first in space, and Russian rocket engines power some of today's commercial launches by private firms in the U.S. (not China). However, the Americans have human footprints on the moon and multiple payloads headed for interplanetary space. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Bonam]

Russia was first in space, and Russian rocket engines power some of today's commercial launches by private firms in the U.S. (not China). However, the Americans have human footprints on the moon and multiple payloads headed for interplanetary space. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Multiple payloads headed for interplanetary space, and yet the key enabling technology for that (Pu-238 production) has been forsaken in the US, with only vague noises about restarting it. America's last Pu-238 will be used for MSL2, and none remains for future missions to the outer planets. Meanwhile China now makes its own Pu-238. American footprints may be on the Moon, but they've been there for over 40 years while America has gone no further. There is some hope for American private firms, like SpaceX, yes. I'm guessing they'll be working on projects for the Chinese government in 10 years time.

[bush_cheney2004]

Meanwhile China now makes its own Pu-238. American footprints may be on the Moon, but they've been there for over 40 years while America has gone no further. There is some hope for American private firms, like SpaceX, yes. I'm guessing they'll be working on projects for the Chinese government in 10 years time.

The point is that the U.S. achieved those "peaceful" space program objectives while building a surveillance and intelligence gathering network that China has not even come close to matching yet. U.S. priorities are on military payloads and capabilities first, not "science".

People who lament the paltry size of NASA budgets might want to look at Canada's and other nations' budgets as a percentage of GDP.

Edited December 18, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Bonam]

The point is that the U.S. achieved those "peaceful" space program objectives while building a surveillance and intelligence gathering network that China has not even come close to matching yet. U.S. priorities are on military payloads and capabilities first, not "science".

People who lament the paltry size of NASA budgets might want to look at Canada's and other nations' budgets as a percentage of GDP.

It's not the size of the NASA budget that is lamentable, but that it keeps shrinking and keeps cutting programs. If the funding level was at least constant and the goals remained steady, cool things could be done with the existing funding levels. But instead we have congress meddling, requiring NASA to waste billions on useless rockets to nowhere like the Ares and now the SLS, which all get cancelled prior to being finished anyway.

US military payloads and capabilities means surveillance satellites. There are lots of those. Yay. Build something cooler.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not the size of the NASA budget that is lamentable, but that it keeps shrinking and keeps cutting programs. If the funding level was at least constant and the goals remained steady, cool things could be done with the existing funding levels. But instead we have congress meddling, requiring NASA to waste billions on useless rockets to nowhere like the Ares and now the SLS, which all get cancelled prior to being finished anyway.

More meh...if it was that important, other nations would spend more as well. Canada sure doesn't. NASA is the small brother to the real U.S. lift and payload objectives. Go to Vandenberg some time and watch all the routine fun.

Figure 1.2. Civil space budget in Government Budget Appropriations or Outlays for R&D (GBAORD) - Year 2011

US military payloads and capabilities means surveillance satellites. There are lots of those. Yay. Build something cooler.

They are, and it is much cooler than feel good cover stories about "beating the Chinese" to 1969.

Edited December 18, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

US military payloads and capabilities means surveillance satellites. There are lots of those. Yay. Build something cooler.

Mars missions are "cool". The Chinese lunar missions are "me too" stuff. Chinese are pumping a lot of money into the "me too" stuff because of nationalism but they will eventually run into the limits of a government finance as their pension and municipal debt issues hit the wall.

[DogOnPorch]

The United States is using Wallops Island for certain launches more these days. The LADEE is a recent Lunar launch from there...but, I guess it wasn't sexy enough for the media.

[Bonam]

The United States is using Wallops Island for certain launches more these days. The LADEE is a recent Lunar launch from there...but, I guess it wasn't sexy enough for the media

One might be better served to look at the aggregate rather than one specific launch:

There has been a dramatic decrease in annual space launches (both in the US and Russia).

Edited December 18, 2013 by Bonam

[DogOnPorch]

I agree there's much less space activity. I also agree with Tim that the Red Chinese missions tend to be 'me too' sort of missions. What are the Chinese hoping to find with a Lunar rover? Jules Vern?

[Bonam]

I agree there's much less space activity. I also agree with Tim that the Red Chinese missions tend to be 'me too' sort of missions. What are the Chinese hoping to find with a Lunar rover? Jules Vern?

While the rover has some nominal science objectives, the real goal is engineering validation and experience. The Chinese now have experience with successfully landing an object on a different planetary body, with the use and production of Pu-238, with communication to and from the Moon, with successfully carrying out the needed orbital maneuvers. All of these things are not trivial to carry out successfully, even if they have been done before by other nations. The lessons and experience they have acquired with this mission will be applied to future ones, and that experience and knowledge is what they were hoping to find.

[DogOnPorch]

While the rover has some nominal science objectives, the real goal is engineering validation and experience. The Chinese now have experience with successfully landing an object on a different planetary body, with the use and production of Pu-238, with communication to and from the Moon, with successfully carrying out the needed orbital maneuvers. All of these things are not trivial to carry out successfully, even if they have been done before by other nations. The lessons and experience they have acquired with this mission will be applied to future ones, and that experience and knowledge is what they were hoping to find.

Sure...and I agree...it's not trivial. But much like their very first satellite, I'd not be shocked if the rover starts playing "The East is Red" at some point during the mission. They did choose a full Moon (landing east of Iridium), too, which is interesting from a probe survival POV (hot) if not an obvious PR sort of thing (there's the Moon!).

[Guest Derek L]

They are, and it is much cooler than feel good cover stories about "beating the Chinese" to 1969.

Exactly, even the Chinese musings over weaponizing the Moon are so 1960s……….Think about it, like how we in the West did back in the 60s………..You can have a land or submarine based ballistic missile launch anywhere on this planet and hit it’s intended target within ~30 minutes……..Or you could base your nuclear deterrent on the Moon, and ensure you could hit your target, on Earth, in about ~3 days……..There’s a joke about submarines secret lunar bases with screen doors waiting to be hatched somewhere I'm sure…….

Edited December 19, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

The background appears to have been lifted from wallpaper art called "Earth Nuke", possibly Moscow as ground zero.

http://wallpafer.com/wp-content/uploads/earth_nuke_droid_wallpaper.png

Good Eye.....it does look due North of the Black Sea.....The Russians have been scared $h**less of the Chinese for decades...and the Chinese actually have superior land forces to bring to the table with a conflict with the Russians……they might actually win that one…….Tom Clancy penned a fictional Sino-Russian conflict years back, I never finished it, but might have to dust that one off, after rereading Red Storm Rising of course

Edited December 19, 2013 by Derek L